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Are all prejudices the same?

January 17, 2012 8:50 am

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On Saturday, I chaired a sparky question time style debate at the Fabian conference 2012 (which, incidentally, was the best Fabian conference I’ve been to). It was a great session which included a fair amount of heckling and even a walk-out. There was loads of energy in the room and between the panelists which made it thoroughly enjoyable. Towards the end of the session as time was short I cut off two questioners as there were pretty strict rules about the format (one short question per questioner, Question Time style) and thought nothing more of it.

In a later session, someone accused me of cutting off the working-class scouser but not the middle-class woman. Unfortunately, I wasn’t there to respond – and I would have responded extremely robustly as the allegation is an offensive one.

Firstly, it was false as both questioners had been cut off. Secondly, I don’t see why it is OK to accuse someone of classism but not, say, racism. No-one to my knowledge – and I’m happy to be corrected on this – responded to this allegation in the moment and pointed out that it was offensive unless there was some clear evidence. Thirdly, there is no knowing someone’s class from their accent – is everyone from Liverpool working-class? Of course not.

As someone whose family is packed full of working-class scousers (you see….you don’t always know someone’s background by sight or accent) it’s probably a bit more of a sensitive allegation.

If the allegation were one of racism would no-one, eg the person who chaired the session, have challenged the person who made it to provide hard evidence or withdraw it? So why in the Labour Party are some willing to accept someone bandying around allegations of classism in a way that we absolutely would not in the case of racism or sexism?

To be honest, I did feel a sense of personal upset that someone had made the accusation and that it wasn’t seen as out of order. But there’s a bigger issue here – do we see classism as less severe than other forms of prejudice so we are more willing to throw around and accept people throwing around such accusations? Or is there a political motive under this – is it only people on the left of the party who can claim that they care about the working-class? Others of us are seen as somehow against the party’s traditional core.

If so, it becomes even more offensive as a result.

  • http://twitter.com/_DaveTalbot David Talbot

    It’s an interesting question Anthony.

    As someone who is from a Glaswegian household but grew up in leafy, and traditional very conservative, Stratford upon Avon – I have had accusations of being a Conservative or, worse, a Blairite, thrown at me on a semi regular basis.

    I’ve often wondered if I didn’t have my firmly Middle England accent, and had say, retained my parent’s Glaswegian accent, would people look in the Labour party look on me any differently? Would I be more ‘one of us’?

    • Anonymous

      Of course it’s not your voice but what you say that counts.

      • http://twitter.com/_DaveTalbot David Talbot

        I’d like to agree with you Treborc.

        But subconsciously or not, whether we mean to or not, impressions do count.

        • Anonymous

          Content will over come one’s voice, it always has and always will, unless you talking  rubbish mind you .

  • derek

    Pointless to point out the vacuum? We must be the only political party in Britain that wants to oppose it’s supporters in the trade unions. Labour leaders get an invite to TUC conferences, then go along and use it as some sort of spring board to disagree with their supporters. You couldn’t make it up, a political party that upsets it’s own supporters deliberately. 

    • Anonymous

      Listen when the Union speaks, believe me labour has already been told.

      Union people in the main support all of the parties you do not join a Union because it’s labour, where I worked just as many people voted for the other parties as labour.  My Union has accident insurance worth £100,000 it has extra sickness payments, it has death and funeral payments, and it negotiates  of course your sacking tribunals your wage and pay deals, that is why people join a Union these days.

      I tell you the £100,000 comes in handy when your told you will not work again.

      But of course labour needs the money and Unions high ranking official enjoy the extra  payments given them by Labour special adviser on welfare, special adviser on wages. the labour Union love affair is about you kiss my butt I will kiss yours..

  • Johndclare

    The main issue here is idiots who regard question time as an opportunity to deliver a speech and share their thoughts with the audience.  You don’t need to worry – everybody in the room was desperate for them to shut up (or be cut short).
    #curseofthechair

  • Anonymous

    I liked the picture at the top!
    It goes to the very roots of our country, actually. Even right out here in the Fens, we have an Independent Grammar School (£10,000 p.a. per child) which is quite excellent in every way.
    Our Comprehensive sucks (1% pass in the new Bacc!)
    People from the Grammar go to Russell Group Universities.
    People from the comprehensive go to Cambridge University (Ruskin) or, more likely the local College. Why do we have such a high rate of druggies, hoodies, drunkenness and crime? Why do we have such an enormous even lower underclass of immigrants?

    Now, let me think……..

    • Anonymous

      Guy is on Holiday so his understudy is here.

      • Anonymous

        My point is this:
        Class was relevant in the 1930s. Even in the 1950s.
        Since then, the industries have dried up and gone East (1980s+). The white middle class military and imperialist males have been utterly trashed (1960s+). The Grammar Schools once produced a means for working class people to reach the top. (1960s+). Class is no longer the issue.
        Nowadays (read the posts above) we still have classes. At the top we have the people working for large organisations – the banks, the EU, the BBC, the Trades Unions, the NHS and so on. Or just working. To get there, you need to be able to read, write and count. You also need a bit of self control. Good schools provide that.
        And at the bottom, we have people who are vulnerable – the sick, the old and the unemployed. Some of us are there by choice, some because of lack of self control, some by sheer bad luck.
        Banging on about “class” is just wrong. Doing something positive about the vulnerable is real socialism.

  • Daniel Speight

    I’m sure you were not discriminating against the working class Anthony, but it does bring up a more important point that others such as John Reid have made.

    Does the party discriminate against working class members?
    Why are so few of the PLP working class members or is that untrue?
    Does the leadership tend to promote party members more like themselves with university education and with a middle class upbringing?
    Is it just that middle class members are more ambitious?
    Does the all women shortlist encourage more middle-class women?
    Does the BAME shortlist do the same ethnically?
    Should there be positive discrimination to improve the numbers of working class members?

    I think using John Reid should stop this comment being regarded as one from the left. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if working class members tend to lean to the right more than others. Whatever Anthony, your upset seems to be pretty minor compare to this real problem the party has.

    • Anonymous

      On your wider points Daniel, maybe some of this has been inadvertant over time.
      For example, barriers to access for ordinary people to enter politics.

      I heard Ed M say directly that that may come about due to changes in how
      union members get involved, or come up through the “ranks?”
      (During a speech at the people’s forum last year.)

      I don’t know how it’s come about that in the past there was far more of a mix
      of people in Parliament, whereas now it’s become a “professional class”
      of politicians?(Was that under TB- I’m not sure.)

      But it has become far too bland and far less representative;
      surely Labour could lead the way on this to redress the balance?
      It would be a highly popular move amongst the public I believe.

      The other thing that occurred to me was how in the recent past
      the party may have wanted to project an image that maybe appeals
      more to “middle England” or how that is perceived?
      Maybe it’s been far too controlled- that has to change, if so.

      B.Boothroyd was speaking in an interview on BBC Parliament some time ago I think- and was mourning that fact that Parliament used to be much more of a lively chamber and a genuine mix of people from working and professional backgrounds.
      (Although probably far less women…..)

      Cheers, Jo.

      • Daniel Speight

        Jo, John Reid’s bit on This Week a few episodes was quite surprising. He said that he thought some form of positive discrimination in candidate short lists would be needed in the future. There’s probably not much I would agree with John Reid but this is one for sure.

        Thing is it makes Anthony’s complaint seem fairly minor, although I’m sure he has a reason to be upset.

        • Anonymous

          Hi Daniel, I didn’t see that and wasn’t aware of it.
          Yes, I agree- any measure to balance out gross inequalities
          is practical and sensible, despite the usual arguments about
          lack of merit etc.The 2 factors can easily be combined.

          I’ve tried to address Anthony’s wider point in title,
          eg is being classist” as bad as other forms of prejudice?

          I’m having to sign off as having great problems with
          what might be the disqus system; eg when I’m typing
          keep getting inserts with other posters’ names,
          disrupting the flow of what I’m writing;
          also- on most comments now, on posting-
          get “system error” followed by duplicate of whole comment appearing.It’s very time consuming trying to rectify.

          I am hoping for some sort of feedback;
          it maybe other people are having similar problems?

          Thanks anyway- and always enjoy your comments
          Daniel.

          Jo

          • http://twitter.com/anthonypainter Anthony Painter

            For what it’s worth, I think it is as bad. Judging people by their background rather than their character, capability, potential etc is abysmal. That’s why I was offended. But this is not about me, it’s about wider acceptability of some forms of prejudice over others.

          • http://twitter.com/peterjukes PeterJukes

            Anthony

            Of course your accusers could be deemed guilty of ‘classism’ too, since they assumed class from regional accent.

            That’s the huge problem with class in the UK – we have no idea if it’s economic (as the French would have it) or cultural, or regional. Is it about economic and cultural power? Or accent and education? 

            Either way, there’s no parallel with race, where the biological denominators are often visible, and the oppression impossible to escape. 

            In short – you can be picked on for your accent. But you can change your accent. You can’t change the colour of your skin. 

          • Daniel Speight

            But you can change your accent.

            Please Peter don’t encourage those Rada mockney accents. There is nothing quite so annoying, although professional cockney, scouse or other regional accents come close.

            Of course my London accent is purely natural :-)

          • Anonymous

            Hi Anthony, my impression is that class prejudice,
            or whatever it can be called, is so ingrained perhaps in our society it’s almost hard to distinguish sometimes.

            I think this country is class ridden; there are so many examples daily of assumptions made?

            I agree with many of the posters on here too, and I think Peter also makes a brilliant point, perhaps about “biological determinism” over inflence of culture, which can be fluid- although can be an enabler or a great constraint.

            We also seem to be living in a deeply hierarchically structured society and systems, eg in education, work settings and wider institutions- including Parliament!

            I hope that one day it will be possible to acheive a far more egalitarian society, which will in turn, reshape attitudes and everyone’s life chances.

            I think so much needs radical reform, but it needs some sort of consensus and a collective leap of faith!

            Perhaps it’s big events like recessions which make people really think about the possibilities for change.
             
            At the moment though it feels like our world is being run by the big powerful vested interests, with ordinary people having little agency over what shapes their lives.

            (PS I did also add an earlier comment down thread,
            which was attempting to address some wider points you seemed to raise.)

            Thanks again- and food for thought.

            Jo

  • Anonymous

    I think there is still a fair amount of suspicion between what we have to, I suppose call the “working class” (I loathe that term – it always sounds as if we are about to discuss the servant problem!) and those who might be regarded as “middle class”, not least because sometimes there is, real or imagined, a feeling of condescention – I think a remark Mandelson made at the 1997 conference sums this up perfectly.

    When one of the unions wanted to promote a motion making it easier for “blue collar” workers to become prospective Labour MPs, Mandy was aghast and actually said that Labour “did not need horny-handed sons of toil”.

    Now Mandelson is a  thoroughly repugnant snob, but I think he was speaking for an awful lot of New Labour’s “posh squad”. Pat Hewitt used to speak down to her audiences as if she were the Queen (I remember her getting snooty with one of the lower orders on Any Questions once) – she was Hyacinth Bucket without the charm.

    They used to say of the BBC Third Programme that it was “Dons speaking to Dons” and I get the feeling that a lot of Labour figures these days feel that they are slightly superior.

    After all that now famous non-entity Luke Bozier made some remark about having the aspiration to come from a “council estate” (in Wales) to being the important little lad he is today – as if there was something shameful about having been bought up on a council estate.

    It is that sort of,  perhaps unintentional,  snobbery that turns a lot of people off.

    • happy.fish

      I think that is called social mobility, which is apparently what we should all be in favour of. Personally I think trying to direct talent to where it will be best used can happen without this need to create heirarchies of superiority or snobbery.

  • Kernow Castellan

    No of course they are not all the same.

    How many times are we told that we should oppose Cameron because he went to Eton, or because Osborne’s given name is Gideon? Just like someone’s gender or skin colour, these were determined by their parents, not decisions made by the person themselves.

    It is lazy (and prejudiced) to sneer at someone for inherited attributes, rather than their actions as an adult. But it is the nature of our current politics.

    • Anonymous

      No it’s not, not when your attacking part of society that cannot really defend it’s self, both Miliband and a number of the Labour front bench have the same trouble as those on the Tories side, they are rich, they do not turn off the heating because your worried about paying the bills, or you do not buy  so much food and you miss a meal.

      Then these same people tell us we have to Cut for the good of the country or the fat cats.  We are already cutting.

      The fact is these same people have the Gaul to tell us sorry but this will hurt  we have to get the deficit down, and then go on a skiing holiday to the most expensive parts of the world yes it really is hurting

  • Anonymous

    These days the Labour Party seems more obsessed with class and in point of fact more dismissive in respect to the concerns of the “working class” than the Conservative Party.

    Why is that do you suppose? 

    • Anonymous

      Not so much class as the middle class, in fact throughout my working life I have actually had more given to me by the Tories then labour, when I became disabled I had more given to me by the Tories then labour.

      DLA and PIP’s labour wanted to end it totally, the Tories say we need to cut it by 20% which one is best.

      • Anonymous

        According to Ed Miliband the very rich are just a little too wealthy and the very poor just a little too needy while the “squeezed middle” are just right as far as the Labour Party goes. Goldilocks faced a similar dilemma while sampling the contents of three bowls of ursine porridge: I suppose Ed Milband will begin trying to decide which bed(fellow) looks likely to be the most comfortable (to get on with) closer to the election.

  • Anonymous

    I know how you feel I keep getting told I’m a work shy scrounger, even the labour leader knows by looking at a person at the front Door he’s able to work, without even asking him, and to confirm it he went to the tax payer next door, mind you Miliband never did tell us how he confirmed whether the  disabled bloke was in fact cheating, or whether the tax payer did in fact pay tax.

    Accusation stated on TV affects peoples lives, in 1999 after a program on TV about work shy scroungers on the BBC, I was thrown from my wheelchair by a lady who did not believe I was disabled, she said even Politician know these people are all cheats, A PC called PC Butcher of the Dyfed Powis Police stated do you want to press charges against them.

    Accusations of work shy and scroungers have affected every single person who is claiming benefits this morning Ms Miller stated on TV these reforms of DLA have to go through to help pay off the deficit, but we did not have a deficit with labour in 1998 when labour started this.

    I suppose we all have to bear our crosses.

    • Anonymous

      Just before she got caught fiddling Hazel Blears related a story on Radio 4 about how she had been “electioneering” at midday on a weekday and happened across a family all dressed in their night attire watching daytime TV (of course). Whether this story was any more truthful than her expenses claims is anybodies guess. She told this story to back up James Purnell’s endorsement of the Freud plans – just before that great “expert” left for the Tories and a Knighthood.

      And of course there kis a TV gutter journalist called Dominic Littlewood who also regales his outraged audiences with similar tales.

      Of course there will always be a certain group of people who will play the system, just like there will always be greedy MPs who fiddle their expenses,, but it is mischevious of the BBC, Blears and anyone else to give the impression this is a majority of claimants.

      • Anonymous

        The problem is my next door neigbour is still in her  nightdress and she will be going to bed to have a nap this afternoon, so what would  labour have made of this, oh look her husband is in his PJ’s bloody lazy work shy scroungers, oh forgot she is a nurse  working nights and so is he.

        Looking and seeing is not knowing.

        • happy.fish

          I fear nurses are now up for public character assassinations, along with teachers and any public servant who expresses concern about pension ‘reform’ aka cuts.

  • Anonymous

    “… do we see classism as less severe than other forms of prejudice so we are more willing to throw around and accept people throwing around such accusations? ”

    Are you seriously asking this question of the Labour Party?  Really?

  • Daniel Speight

    One strange idea that seems to be making a reappearance is the use of the word tribalism to describe  Labour supporters who are so anti-Tory that they will go no credence to anything from that party.

    Being someone that can often be accused of this horrible character trait I suspect the tribalism doesn’t refer to the ‘party’ tribe at all, but more to the ‘class’ tribe. Once upon a time the party and the class were fairly similar in their make up, but now that no longer is the case. Funny thing is I suspect the same tribalism is at the top end of the Tories, especially the likes of Cameron. I know ‘class’ is one of those words like ‘equality’ that we shouldn’t use anymore, but class loyalties do explain so much of what happens in today’s politics.

    • Anonymous

      Seems to me that the class the Labour Party  hates most is the traditional white British working class.  

      • http://twitter.com/CyborgDave Dave

        Top ways to sound like an enormous racist
        #3 Use the phrase “traditional white British working class”

        Because the colour of our working classes matters enormously.

        • Anonymous

          Wow, kneejerk much?

          In what way is what Joe says racist? Just because he uses the word white?

          Or are you one of those people that likes to shut down any debate by scweaming racist at the top of your voice?

  • Anonymous

    (Having problems with system again Mark- getting “system error” when I try to post,
    followed by original post being published- but duplicate elsewhere on thread which I then have to delete.Unfortunately it takes me ages as working on a very slow PC….)
    I don’t understand why it’s occurring with some posts but not others?)

    Is there a general problem please?

    Thanks, Jo.

    • Anonymous

      we have the same problem but once the error comes up the comment is sent.

      • Anonymous

        Thankyou for bothering to reply Robert.

        Sorry you’re having problems with it too.

        Jo

  • Anonymous

    Hi Anthony, in response to your question in title, I’m not sure.
    Maybe it’s a question of degree, or the intention of the person
    who initiates? Also- how perceived will vary from one to another.

    From observation in life, I think it’s possible people can say things
    in good faith with no intention to offend, and yet people may hear it differently?
    There’s a lot of sensitivity in some areas.

    Of late for example I’ve been quite shocked by the use of language
    and references by a particular commenter on the blogs,
    eg “scum;” but it’s possible that some people accept this type of terminology
    as normal and part of their thinking; yet may be unaware of its effect of use.

    Not to say there is any excuse for deliberate prejudice- but not all people
    I believe are out and out bigots; it’s more complicated than that-
    but some people need to be made graphically aware!

    Another example might be racial prejudice amongst some of the older generation;
    also- institutionalised sexism that is still rife as seen in media projections
    and affecting deeply ingrained attitudes in institutions.

    On a personal level you refer to though Anthony- sorry you had a difficult experience,
    and I hope it gets resolved. Politics I’d imagine can be a very tricky area,
    and no easy answers.

    Jo

  • Anonymous

    “Are all prejudices the same?
    Racism,  sexism and your term “classism”  are related to the methods of oppression and dominance within society.

    “Divide and rule” – didn’t someone say this recently?

  • http://twitter.com/anthonypainter Anthony Painter

    I think it’s a shame you take that view Emma. I really do. It appears the Labour party is to become a polluted pool.

    • http://twitter.com/gonzozzz dave stone

      Why “polluted pool” – isn’t that an over reaction to one incident or are there other examples? 

      • http://twitter.com/anthonypainter Anthony Painter

        There has started to be a bit of a tendency through innuendo or labeling to begin to question the motivations of some who express particular views. This is a worrying development. And I think that there may have been some acceptance of this false allegation because of the nonsense factional politics that is re-emerging within the Labour party. I hope I’m wrong….

        • Anonymous

          Anthony, you think I decided not to focus on you in a one hour session on class and inequality becuase we disagree about the future direction of the Labour Party?

          I’m pleased to say you are wrong. Not least because I don’t really sit comfortably in any faction. You and I had a falling out over your attitude to Occupy, but that doesn’t mean I haven’t admired the other work you’ve done particularly around race.

          So no, I’m not smearing or accepting based on you. I’m being a responsible chair and offering the most interesting debate to the audience. In this case that was on why there were so few working class voices at a Left of centre conference.

          • Anonymous

            Emma, why is anybody surprised that there are so few working class voices at a Fabian conference?  I would expect most Fabians to be middle class graduates, while more working class voices would probably be heard at a trade union conference.

            Incidentally, I am a graduate from a C1-C2 background with a Welsh accent, which makes people think that my background is more working class than it actually is!  A personal view is that snobbishness, including inverted snobbery, is wrong but less wrong than racism.

    • http://twitter.com/peterjukes PeterJukes

      Anthony

      I hope this isn’t true, and that none of this affects your participation. 

      Times are tense, with accusations of prejudice being flung around from all quarters. I’m absolutely sure you’re not prejudiced against anyone on the basis of class, and people can get cut off for all kinds of reasons.  The danger is that accusations of any kind of prejudice are just further excuses to silence people – the ultimate ad hominem. 

      Don’t let that happen. Of course we all have elements of prejudice. Your accusers will have too.  The point isn’t to accuse and alienate and silence, but to discuss and enlighten.

      Glad you wrote this piece. But I really hope we can leap over the individual unprovable accusations to the bigger issuess.

      And when it comes to class, ‘working class accent’ is really not enough to base anything on. On that basis, Guy Ritchie is one of the oppressed. 

  • jaime taurosangastre candelas

    Isn’t it time that those old differences around class were dropped by everyone?  What is their modern relevance?  I really don’t know how anyone can possibly judge or put people into compartments on some arbitrary factor – the way they speak, where they went to school, or what they earn or don’t earn.  

    We had a monk come to the Church on Sunday to deliver a talk (not a “sermon” as the Church of England has some rules about monks and priests, but his talk took the place of a sermon).  He was what most people call upper class – the son of an aristocrat, he went to a private school, etc.  But he has no personal income, and dedicates his life to working with homeless people in London.  By contrast, someone I know in the village is self-employed and makes quite a lot of money by dealing on ebay.  He has no academic qualifications at all and left school when he was 16 to become a fisherman, and then left the fishing boat to work for a transport company as a lorry driver, and now is full time on ebay with a rented industrial unit.  What is the difference in either of these people, and is it important?

  • Anonymous

    Prejudice and discrimination? 

     I see a Party which actively and deliberately discriminated  in its policies against:

    The English  (the West Lothian Question)
    and the white working class (unfettered immigration) 

    and still does not recognise or accept it did and still does.

    Why?
     Where are the Labour discussions on immigration? 

    Where are the Labour discussions on the West Lothian Question?

    Answer: nowhere to be seen..No problem , nothing to see, move along.

    • Anonymous

      I strongly suggest Owen Jones’s ‘Chavs’ . You will get a definitive answer at least to the second issue you mentioned.

      • Dave Postles

        Owen Jones, Chavs, but perhaps you might wish to go back to Simon Charlesworth, A Phenomenology of Working Class Experience (CUP, 1999-2000) for a comprehension of the devastation and depression of the working class in and around Rotherham as a result of Thatcher’s destruction. 

        • Anonymous

          will check it out, thanks!

  • Anonymous

    I think that’s a matter of interpretation, perception
    and viewpoint madasafish.
    The problem is, there’s also a lot of prejudice out there,
    which compounds stereotypes and simplifies things too much.

    J

  • Anonymous

    I knew it _Guy is a pseudonym for Hyacinth Bucket!

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