We don’t do politics

April 2, 2012 1:17 pm

On Saturday, there was a #labourdoorstep tweet which said that there had been a ‘mixed reaction’ in the canvassing that morning.  This was so refreshing that it caught my eye. The tweeter had clearly done something very important that morning – listened.

The coals of Bradford West have been raked over quite extensively already – and Sean Dolat’s excellent blog informed by his experience on the actual campaign sums it all up really. Labour did campaigning, George Galloway did politics. More voter-id is not the answer. The swarm easily beats that. Labour must also relearn the art of politics: an open and two-way process. That #labourdoorstep tweet on Saturday demonstrated someone actually doing politics.

Since Friday we’ve had a Westminster frame applied to Bradford West. The worst example came from the new pro-Ed Miliband blog Shifting Grounds in a Pravda-esque attack on the ‘voices of desperation‘. These voices are the vanquished ‘Blairites’. Like Keyser Soze, these would-be political assassins are hell-bent on revenge and Ed Miliband is their target. It’s amazing what some people in and around the Westminster bubble spend their time thinking and worrying about.

The bigger concern is what Bradford West hints at about party politics more deeply. On Friday, it was dismissed as ‘local concerns’ (for which, read, ‘those pesky Muslims’). If anything, that makes it even more significant. We are increasingly seeing a politics that is a series of ‘local’ concerns. It is less and less about big national movements, classes and ideologies. Into the space once occupied by these, we are seeing the politics of identity, locality, issue-concern, and personality pour in.

Esteem for our political classes has been decaying for decades. MPs expenses may have been the moment when the deferential politics of party democracy finally became unsustainable. The main parties just haven’t realised it yet.

And then along came Peter Cruddas and his attempts to open up Conservative party policy – by selling access to it. The response of Labour? Some feigned revulsion but then silence. Both parties know that the current system suits them. They know state funding for political parties is an absolute non-starter. They will support changes to the extent they harm the other side but otherwise the status quo will do.

Contempt for the political classes has been compounded by their failure to grapple with the very real economic problems that we as a nation face. This is not a parochial concern – it is happening across Europe. In the UK, the Coalition has already failed. Its entire economic argument – that austerity would lead to growth – has been shot to pieces. There is little faith in Labour either. So we have a paradox where people have lost faith in the Coalition’s economics but have even less faith in Labour.

The political future is one of disgust with politics, new parties sustained by anger, populism and the disruptive energy of social networks, hung parliaments, and street protest, occupation and violence. It is of untrusted leaders, the leading two parties polling in the mid-30s at best in low turnout elections and sudden spikes and collapses in support.

There will be the George Galloways, whoever follows Nick Griffin on the extreme right and populist right figures. Nick Clegg’s popularity at the last election was actually a feature of this believe it or not. Take a look at the French election to see the future. Neither Sarkozy nor Hollande are polling above 30% in first round voting.

Labour’s response to this threat is to centralise power and control to an even greater extent – hunker down in other words. Refounding Labour was nothing. The political class sustains itself and protects its interests. Selections are rigged. Organisation is still in the 1990s mode despite the fact that world is now gone. Messages are pushed out, voters are surveyed, candidates are moulded and silenced. We don’t do politics.

In the rush to look for a convenient target all of this is missed. Europe’s leaders on the left and right are gripped by collective failure. Major political parties across the continent are rather like the Rolling Stones – some great tunes decades ago but who other than their devoted fans buy their new music? Those devotees do love them though; they’ve got the t-shirts to prove it.

There’s little that can be done to ensure that the Rolling Stones write great tunes again but we can change politics. Rather, we can start doing politics again. There is a difference between politics and political management. Politics is about open engagement and dialogue. It is organic. Political management is about closing down dissent, establishing Pravda-like blogs, rabid rebuttal of dissenting voices on Twitter and fixing outcomes.

The problem for the politically managed party is that our national culture has been cracked open. We are no longer tied to traditional and convention, class and habit. We can pick and choose, buy or walk away, we want to be producers and participants as well as consumers. If the main political parties don’t respond to the reality of the pluralistic nation we have become then someone else will do. We may not like who that person is.

Everything has to be in the mix: party funding, policy-making, selection and organisation. Leading a party in a pluralistic nation is very different to leading one in a deferential nation – as David Cameron, Ed Miliband and their counterparts across Europe are discovering.

The alternative is to just play the old CDs, wear the fading t-shirts, and loyally buy the tracks on the day of release. You can talk about it all on the Rolling Stones Facebook page. You won’t find many of your friends or neighbours there: your interest is sectional. Or instead, we could move like Jagger.

Great reaction on the #labourdoorstep.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=564361715 Jeff Maughan

    “More voter-id is not the answer. The swarm easily beats that”

    Do you have any evidence for this assertion?  It seems to me that most of the problem was that labour voters were not identified and effectively targeted. 

    What is your alternative to conducting voter ID?  How can you fight a campaign without targeting your voters?

    ” On Friday, it was dismissed as ‘local concerns’ (for which, read, ‘those pesky Muslims’)”

    Well didn’t Galloway campaign on the basis that if you didn’t voter for him, you’d go to hell?

  • badtechnician

    The party definitely doesn’t do politics! 

    I’ve nodded my head to the many, many posts on here and other places that say we do agendas, minutes, finance reports but politics? Never. The same faces on executives, councils and decision making bodies making the same decisions over and over again. We push crappy leaflets through doors full of pictures of councillors pointing at potholes, graffiti and recycling bins but never discuss the issues behind the photos and then wonder why people don’t vote for us.

    Most people in this country don’t do politics, but ask them about speed humps, parking, bin collections, taxes (granny, pasty or other), gas & electric tariffs, childcare, healthcare, pensions, the price of beer, public sector pay, university places or mobile reception and 8 times out of 10 they’ll have an opinion on it. I don’t know what our position on any of these is, I’m not sure what our position on anything is and haven’t been since about 2000.

    There are massive disconnects within our own party that we need to fix as well as the ones between us and the wider electorate, they are symptoms of each other and lead to the problems of the other. We don’t listen to each other let alone what an outsider wants to tell us.

    • http://twitter.com/anthonypainter Anthony Painter

       Some good thoughts here. I would say that what we need to do is understand those concerns and feed them into our own thinking. Sometimes not having the answer is a good way of doing politics – as long as you then think about practical solutions. You are right about disconnects within our own party – they are exacerbated by a machine-like mentality at the centre which has been getting even worse if anything.

      • badtechnician

        My main concern with disconnects is at a local level, the infighting and posturing between ward, LGC & constituency has a negative effect on most of what we do. “We do it like this here”, “We don’t do it like X ward”, “We can’t do it like that as we’ve never done that in Y ward” “We tried that once but it didn’t work”, “That’s just ‘the office’ getting in the way”. I’m sure we’ve all got our own versions of these stories and in many cases the cause of the dispute goes back to something someone said or did in 1982.

        What happens with the national party might as well be happening to another party altogether, how many times do we at a local level have to separate ourselves from the national party? Yes we’ll bask in the credit when it does something right but for the last few years these moments have been few and far between. 

        You are right about listening to and learning from voters, this is something that we are poor at and as a result they have stopped listening to us, we aren’t speaking the same language anymore, be it at a national or local level. We are entrenched in our way of doing things and woe betide you if you try and change it, if you aren’t stepping on the toes of one person, you’re doing something that someone else has to approve.

        The game has changed, would NotW have been culled if it weren’t for the twitter campaign against their advertisers? In 2 days Kony2012 went from some nutty American group to global coverage to backlash to backlash against the backlash. 2 days. In 2 days at a local level you can’t even get a street stall to campaign against a local library closure as the leaflets have to be approved….

        I’m worried about our local election results and our campaign hasn’t kicked off in anger. The turnout is going to be miserable, I don’t think we’ll get our vote out, rather I don’t think our vote will come out. We’re going to do the same old “3 leaflets before polling day, canvassing until polling day then number taking on the day”. This worked in the good old days but this isn’t the good old days. We’re the 3rd party with a funny looking leader (I voted for Ed by the way) and at a local level we’ve got councils that are hamstrung by budget cuts that can’t fix pot holes, are closing nursing homes and aren’t being seen to be delivering anything different to that which the Tories delivered.

        The Tories and Lib Dems are going to do badly too but as the only opposition and at this stage of the parliament we have to be winning councils, especially with how unpopular this government is. Like Galloway, I fear independents and minor parties may well do well in May. (Someone has to win the seats I am predicting people to lose.) We do not have the time between now and polling day to discover the lessons of Bradford West let alone learn them. Yes each council ward is not Bradford West, nor will we have a well oiled Respect campaign to fight but the antipathy to Labour is the same in Bradford as it is in Stoke, Plymouth, Dagenham, Kilmarnock, Rhonda, Tranmere, Ipswich and Stockport.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=564361715 Jeff Maughan

       But what you say is all “politics” – politics is about the allocation of sparse resources, and who allocates them.  And “crappy leaflets through doors full of pictures of councillors pointing at potholes, graffiti and recycling bins” are also “doing politics” (and they can be very effective information campaigning tools”.

      I think what this article is basically saying is more “we don’t do politics like I want it to be done”.

  • http://www.pickledpolitics.com Sunny H


    Since Friday we’ve had a Westminster frame applied to Bradford West. The worst example came from the new pro-Ed Miliband blog Shifting Grounds”

    - really? And not Dan Hodges, who laughably claimed Labour lost because of Ed’s “political direction”? 

    • http://twitter.com/anthonypainter Anthony Painter

      The only person who strikes fear into you more than Tony Blair is Dan Hodges. You are obsessed with him.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=36910622 Edward Carlsson Browne

        That’s not really an answer to the question, is it? More a cheap ad hominem.

        I am curious how exactly you think something could be worse than an approach that blames everything, right down to the weather, on Ed Miliband. That would seem less than measured, to put it politely.

        • Daniel Speight

           Sunny must have imagined the Hodges post on the Telegraph blogs Edward.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=36910622 Edward Carlsson Browne

             http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100148278/george-galloway-has-exposed-the-void-at-labours-core-and-left-it-fighting-for-its-life/

            There in all its incoherent glory. It’d be nice if it was imaginary, but that doesn’t appear to be the case.

          • Daniel Speight

             You’re right. There it is.

            Do you think Anthony now finds old allies an embarrassment? A bit like Alex Smith must find Luke Bozier.

          • Daniel Speight

             You’re right. There it is.

            Do you think Anthony now finds old allies an embarrassment? A bit like Alex Smith must find Luke Bozier.

        • Anthony Painter

          The last time I looked, the Telegraph blogs have comments. I’m sure Dan Hodges would love to hear from you.

          For my take, see above.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=36910622 Edward Carlsson Browne

             They do indeed have comments, so if I wanted to engage with the idiots who comment on Telegraph blogs I could take that option. I’d rather ask somebody who might actually give a sane response, however.

          • Anthony Painter

            Edward, you’ve come on here to have a go at Dan Hodges who is not mentioned in the piece , said something irrelevant about voter-id (which of course needs to be done), and engaged in a series of ad hominem attacks while having a go at others for doing the same. Really, what’s the point? Just passing some time?

          • treborc

            I suspect he  has indigestion.

          • treborc

            I suspect he  has indigestion.

          • AlanGiles
          • Brumanuensis

            You’ve returned, Alan. Good news.

          • Dave Postles

            Yes, excellent.

          • treborc

             yep

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=36910622 Edward Carlsson Browne

            That is not an accurate characterisation of my comments.

            I have certainly criticised Dan Hodges, but that was in relation to a point previously raised (which is why it was a comment on a comment, rather than a comment on your piece). If this is irrelevant, I am therefore not the person you need to take it up with.

            As for voter ID, you stated that “more voter ID is not the answer”. I would therefore suggest you make your mind up as to whether or not it is needed, before you accuse me of irrelevancies.

            And I continue to wait for an answer. Do you fancy actually doing it this time, or would you like to validate my ad hominems?

          • http://twitter.com/anthonypainter Anthony Painter

             You’ve put the actual quote re voter-id in your comment which invalidates your point that I somehow say it’s not needed! Read.the.article.

            As for answering your killer question – I’ve no idea what it is. Ask me a straight question that is relevant to the article above and I will give you a straight answer.

            If you want to debate with Dan Hodges then the Telegraph blogs are the place for you.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=564361715 Jeff Maughan

       Hi Sunny, it I find it very difficult to say what that passage you quoted actually means.

  • BarryArcherBA

    You let millions of Muslims in to vote Labour and take British jobs.

    You  failed twice!

    Those  Muslims have made their own jobs and they despise your aim to make them into nothing more than voting fodder.

    They will keep you out of power as the Scots have done when you tried to ensure Scotlish Labour could never be turfed out?

    Your one & only strong hold left is Wales!

    With just the one million exminers obliged to vote because they have been marooned on sickies for 30 years!

    They are now dyeing out in their hundreds of thousands of mine workers ailments and 30 years of idleness.  When they have all gone  (probably before the next election) you will  have to vie with LibDems to be second to UKIP everywhere in UK.

    Nothing could be more well deserved!

    • treborc

      idiot

    • Dave Postles

       ’They are now dyeing out in’
      What’s their favourite colour?

      • treborc

        I did notice it, smiled, but see being Welsh I’m to nice to mention it.

        The way it’s going it’s not red.

        • Dave Postles

           ’I'm to nice to mention it.’
          I know you are Robert; I’m just an old mean bastard.

  • http://twitter.com/bencobley Ben Cobley

    It is what has surprised me most since joining Labour in 2010, how little politics we do. I still can’t quite get my head around it. It is as if the party went to sleep at some time in the 1990s or 2000s, and in that time someone came in and took the politics away; then when the party woke up again no one noticed.

    Aren’t we meant to be, like, doing stuff? And saying stuff? Sometimes, every now and again, maybe.

    I don’t agree with the inference about the pointlessness of doorstepping voters though – it just depends on how you do it. The practice of showing up on someone’s doorstep and just asking them how they vote defies belief and I can’t believe some people do this. There are better ways.

    Undoubtedly the worst aspect of #labourdoorstep though is indeed the dreadful corporatised group-think tweets. Speaking of which, general Labour (party-line) tweeting is quite appalling -  providing an lesson in how to remove personality from communications, on a medium that privileges personality.

    • http://twitter.com/anthonypainter Anthony Painter

       I agree with all of that. I certainly don’t think that knocking doors is pointless – far from it. In fact, it’s on the doorstep where real politics can be done.

      • http://twitter.com/bencobley Ben Cobley

        Yes, sorry Anthony, good point, you said all that at the beginning. I also like the point you made about not having all the answers not necessarily being a bad thing. The conversational, two-way process is essential as with most communication. For many people though, that simple way of doing things still needs to be learned.

        • Neil Walshaw

          Anthony, Ben – I do alot of my politics on the doorstep – finding out whats on peoples minds, sounding ideas out with them, relationship building. Takes time but ultimately worth it.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Homfray/510980099 Mike Homfray

      Ben: I think it got worse when they moved to different ways of policy making. The resolution approach had many faults but it did mean that real issues got discussed. Now its quite hard to keep issues on the agenda because there isn’t anywhere for them to go owing to the failure of the NPF approach.

      I initially supported it, but it didn’t succeed, and I still feel that there is a fear of ideas

      • http://twitter.com/bencobley Ben Cobley

        Interesting to hear that Mike, yes I’ve heard quite a few complaints along those lines.

        What I find most striking is the way that what you rightly term “a fear of ideas” seems to permeate the whole party culture. Loyalty to the institution is privileged above loyalty to principle and miles above free thinking. Indeed thinking for yourself is held in high suspicion!

        I can see an alternative, but it would require people to calm down and become a lot more relaxed about differences of opinion. We are Lefties, and that’s what I love about Lefties the most – the opinions. But many of us do not accept that others might have different ones to ours! The solution that Labour seemed to devise was to neuter opinions, but we can see from the debates raging on here every day that they never went away. We need better ways to air them, democracy to make decisions fairly and, most importantly, the good people of the Left behaving like decent human beings and respecting difference.

        Maybe we should start playing calming classical music at meetings like they do in London Underground stations.

    • DaveCitizen

       Well said Ben – I’d like to see the leadership of Labour sticking their necks out a little more . There’s too much focus grouping still which ends up with watered down principles or hiding them altogether if deemded electorally risky.

      Blair went down the power before principle road and thought he was clever enough to slip in doing the ‘right thing’ when it really mattered – he wasn’t and so we found we were shoulder to shoulder with Bush, extreme inequality went spiralling even further out of control and the interests behind neoliberalism took another step forward.

      We need to learn from and challenge each other (including the Leadership) – lets ask those uncomfortable questions and see where people really want politics to take them. Eg, what level of inequality would be about right – are we talking Germany, Sweden, or perhaps USA and Singapore? What about globalisation and making things – do we want to keep closing our factories so we can carry on importing stuff made by child or oppressed cheap labour?

      Shouldn’t politicians be interested in our views on this stuff?! It would invite attacks from the international elite owned media of course, but if we don’t think the population is capable of thinking beyond that then we really are in deep trouble! 

      • http://twitter.com/bencobley Ben Cobley

        There’s a good idea in what you say Dave – asking people what they think; it largely depends on the questions you ask. Framing a question in terms of what sort of level of financial equality people want is a good one – and I think there’s a more than decent chance of the public preferring the Scandinavian model over the neoliberal one.

        How to ask these questions is another one; maybe set up some big voting consultation for members advertised well in advance and invite the general public to join. Administering it would probably only be feasible via membership or some form of registration.

    • GuyM

      People I know in the Tories say they are the same.

      Canvassing has become a minority sport and most activity is social fund raising, with even thin gs like constituency political committees apparently meeting rarely.

      I think the problem is that very few people in their right mind with busy lives want to spend hours of free time knocking on strangers’ doors canvassing, not least when the public is both pretty dumb and hostile to politicians in general.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=564361715 Jeff Maughan

       ”The practice of showing up on someone’s doorstep and just asking them
      how they vote defies belief and I can’t believe some people do this.
      There are better ways.”

      Such as?  it is perfectly possible to articulate key issues in a short doorstepping session.  In general, people who are doorknocking will speak to different individuals for different lengths of time.  If by “better ways” you mean arguing the toss with every voter, you’ll find that you only have time to speak to a few people. 

      • treborc

        You know who was going to vote labour because you asked, if they slammed the door you move on, if they said yes you’d moved on, it was the ones that said maybe or not sure you aimed to get a yes from, once you had  yes from them you would move on, you never gave more then eight minutes to a house.

        But that was years ago it may have changed now.

        • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=564361715 Jeff Maughan

          Campaigning these days is conducted on a targeted basis, ie you make a selection based on demographic/geographical criteria, you contact them, then you cultivate them, knock them up on election day etc. 

          Its a successful system when everything works in tandem.  It clearly hasn’t worked properly in Bradford, which speaks to a failure from both the local and national campaign organisers. 

          Conducting a selection will always be a “political” act as it involves targeting who you will focus your campaign on in order to achieve a winning coalition. It’s a good example of Lenin’s “who, whom” – ie who is performing the selection (ie who are the campaign organisers”) and who is being selected for targeted campaigning. 

          That’s one reason why I would argue against the article’s claim that “we don’t do politics”  – campaigning will always be political in that we select our target voters. 

          BTW, there are also campaigns targeted at all members of a constituency such as mailshots to every voter, I’m not focusing on those in these comments. 

  • Louiscilia

    I think labour lost (and with great abundance) because pe ople are not happy with the Tories/Libs and Labour did not have the proper answers to people’s problems and concerns (both local and non-local). The Tories console themelves with not having lost the deposit and the Libs keep their silence since they have nothing of relevance to say.  In fact, the Libs can be completely  ignored.  They are not part of the equation.  The effects of the last Labour government are also still fresh, and to many Muslims its policies (Iraq and slavishness to USA) do not recollect sweet memories . Also, local issues did have a bearing (but they always do in local elections).  So what must Labour do?  Re-invent itself?  Perhaps. Certainly it must come up with alternatives that sound good to the new generations – policies that are not mere criticsm of those of the government, but policies that are responsive to their concerns and present something new (even of a break-through in the form of radical strategies). Take a look at what Mario Monti is doing in Italy.

    • treborc

       Would you vote for labour in Wales.

      Sale of council homes to end, housing stock to have investment in my area 150 empty boarded up houses will be repaired and 50 houses a year built.

      The NHS will stay as it is.

      New school building to go ahead

      Free prescriptions

      Free hospital car parking.

      Free blue badges

      Remploy factories if allowed will stay open and be expanded if allowed by the Tories.

      Tuition fees to be held at £3000 and if possible  in the future returned to free.

      How can two labour parties be so different

  • peteyvv

    Labour must be scared on the issue of party funding. They should be calling for Maude’s resignation. Are they scared he’s got a point?

    • http://twitter.com/anthonypainter Anthony Painter

      Labour has nothing to fear from reform of funding. And the trade union link is safe too – what’s stopping us?

      • treborc

        Union and Union members

  • Ayub Khan

    Here is my reflection on what happened #bradfordwest.

    Firstly, it seems to me that we had a poor candidate who did
    not focus enough on local issues.  From
    what I saw of him on TV he did not really inspire confidence.  This is surprising given that he is as I
    understand Deputy Leader of the Council?

    Secondly, it was in my view a fatal mistake for us (Labour)
    to think that a local Asian and Muslim candidate would be the best person for
    the job.  The local CLP needs to reflect
    on this.  The best candidate should be
    the best candidate regardless of race, gender, disability etc.  You get my point.  If they are local then that is great, if they
    are not this should be no problem. 
    Sometimes a fresh look at these things is much better.

    Thirdly, lots of comment on the so called Asian vote.  In the end it doesn’t matter if the
    electorate is black, white, yellow or green, male or female, straight or gay,
    young or old.  It’s about our policies and
    what side of the argument people stand on. 
    Yes there are those in the community that are disproportionately hit i.e.,
    GCSE attainment for certain ethnic groups, but if the policy direction is clear
    and people can see how it will benefit them, they will vote.

    Fourthly, I suspect that organisation and preparation were
    not what they could have been given that the CLP and some in Labour thought
    this was a walk in the park.  Any
    campaign needs serious organisation.  What’s
    the saying, “fail to plan – prepare to fail” The mutterings from the Party
    indicate that Tom Watson went AWOL.  The
    National Secretary needs to hold a firm line and even if it means upsetting
    people help get the organisation right.

    In the end, it’s important that lessons are learned.  Some are already saying that this will never
    happen again, if we are complacent it will.

    • treborc

       That’s about the most reasoned so far on here, from somebody who was in that area

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=564361715 Jeff Maughan

       Would agree with you, with a particular stress on point 4

    • Politique

      “Failure to Prepare   Prepare to Fail”

  • coventrian

    Between 1997 and 2005, New Labour drove away 5 million voters and portrayed it as a triumph. Blairites like Painter and Hodges are not just part of the problem, they are the problem.

    • GuyM

      Of course it was New Labour that attracted them in the first place, not people like Foot and Kinnock.

      • Brumanuensis

        Blair attracted 1,957,654 votes.

      • http://twitter.com/anthonypainter Anthony Painter

        As it happens, I joined under Neil Kinnock. But don’t let the facts get in the way of a deep prejudice. As for the ‘Blairite’ thing – see the article. So dull – and inaccurate as it happens. 

        • GuyM

          And would you like to compare Kinnock v Blair in terms of number of votes and electoral success?

          • Anthony Painter

            Is it pub quiz night ? What’s the prize?

          • GuyM

            Understanding what might give your party a chance of winning in 2015?

      • coventrian

        No it wasn’t. New Labour inherited a poll lead from John Smith – thanks to Black Wednesday – which was unchanged until the 1997 election.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=564361715 Jeff Maughan

      Well I would consider winning three general elections a “triumph”.  And I doubt that there is any evidence for your assertion that “new labour drove away 5 million voters”.  If that is the total amount of votes lost, I would expect that those voters changed their preferences for a variety of different, and often illogical, reasons.  It seems a bit harsh to blame it all on Blairism. 

      • coventrian

        The first election was gift thanks to black Wednesday and the long suicide of the Major government. Most of the 5 million just stopped voting, or voted for parties to the left (or perceived to be to the left) of Labour.

        It’s not harsh to blame this on Blairism, it’s accurate.

        • jaime taurosangastre candelas

          I think that is a bit too sweeping a statement to be entirely true.  I voted for New Labour in 97, 01 and 05.  I voted Liberal Democrat in 2010.

          I think that like me, some proportion of the “lost 5 million” voted for centrist parties, not parties further to the left or did not vote at all.

          The danger with your argument is that you convince yourself to chase votes to the left of New Labour that actually may not be there.  I think what could happen is that for every vote you may pick up by tracking to the left, you lose two in the centre. The Lib Dems, or worse the tories or UKIP may pick up those votes.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Homfray/510980099 Mike Homfray

            But some of those who voted LibDem did so not because they were seen to be to the right of Labour, but to their left, particularly on foreign policy and civil liberties. This was particularly so in the northern marginals – less so in the south where most LD voters used to be Tory.

            The evidence in terms of turnout is what shows, very clearly, that Tory voters stayed away in droves in 2001. The Labour vote dropped but the majority was maintained because of that fact alone. By 2005 Labour had lost more votes, mainly to the LD’s because of Iraq. They are largely the voters returning to us from the LD’s now . 2010 saw an upsurge in the Tory vote and a major drop in ours and that was largely down to our voters abstaining, particularly in terms of the ‘core’ vote . Of course, some transferred to other parties, but most didn’t or there would have been a Tory majority or a sizeable increase in the number of LD MP’s.

            I think the problem with you and a lot of other Blairites is that you are fixated on repeating the 1997 result. That was a blip and should never really have happened. You had one off Labour voters opting for Labour once and once only, and they won’t be coming back. Ever. Realistically, a majority of 40-50 is attainable, and that will be done by a combination of former LD’s who saw themselves a anti-Tory and don’t like the coalition, some who voted Tory last time but view the coalition a either wrong or incompetent in hindsight, but also those voters who didn’t turn out for us last time. Whether I’d define them as left wing or not I wouldn’t like to say, but I think many are the people who will respond to a more conventional Labour message and who were fed up with us last time but wouldn’t vote for any other party.

            Labour cannot move further towards the right than it did before, because there is no space there. The Coalition – both parties – occupies it already. It is extremely unlikely that we will lose people who voted for us last time by moving to the left – we were down to our absolute diehard voters. Its also unlikely that we will attract people who like the coalition’s programme, so we have to look towards those who dislike the coalition and want an alternative. Ultimately, that’s the purpose of having two or more parties. I sometimes think you don’t recognise this. If all the parties are saying the same thing, then there really is no choice and people start to say they are ‘all the same’ (which I hear regularly!). There is very little chance that Labour will move sharply to the left, but we are a left of centre party, and that does mean that we won;t be pursuing the ideas you prefer, which, to be frank, are clearly right of centre. There are some in the party who I think may well end up shifting over to the coalition, as that is really where their sympathies lie in terms of their uncritical view of markets and finance. 

          • coventrian

            Many who voted Lib Dem in 2010 were fooled by their radical stance, perhaps you were fooled by something else.

            The figures show that most who deserted Labour didn’t vote. The idea that New labour wasn’t right wing enough for them, or that there were no other more right wing alternatives is so absurd it’s hardly worth dealing with.

          • Noelinho

            Maybe a lot of people who voted Lib Dem in 2010, weren’t “fooled”, but instead looked at the manifesto and thought it had more ideas than the Labour one. The £10k PTA is a great example of a policy that Labour – which still claims to be a party that supports working people – could and should have supported, yet some Labour MPs simply dismissed it on the basis that it would hurt people on benefits.

            That’s just one example of Labour failing to listen to the concerns of people. I’m sure that policy won the Liberal Democrats a fair number of votes, and it’s a policy many people would expect a party that thinks of itself as on the side of working people should support.

            Labour needs to get away from the mindset that they own votes, or that people who vote for other parties are fooled in some way. There are clear reasons the Lib Dems particularly won votes in 2010, and it wasn’t all about Iraq. Telling people they were fooled simply tells people they are too stupid to vote Labour, and it does nothing to win them back.

          • Dave Postles

            Independent commentators have indicated that the £10k personal tax allowance is, in the overall context, less helpful to the poorest than targeted benefits.  The conclusion of the IFS is that the greatest benefit is to middle-income families with two earners (http://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/6045).  The poorest are losing their benefits, but gain little by the increased personal tax allowance, so their overall benefit is dubious at best and negative at worst.  The £10k personal allowance is only supportive of the poorest if you do not destroy their benefits. 

          • Noelinho

            Yes, that’s true – although to counteract the gain at the top, you can reduce the higher income threshold more effectively than was done in the budget by lowering the threshold. The IFS figures seem to concentrate on the impact on families, but families are not the only people impacted, and there are also plenty of people who don’t qualify for benefits but live on low pay too, and those people often fall through the gap, because changes in benefits don’t affect them.

          • coventrian

            No, I’m just saying you were too stupid to vote Labour.

            By the way, there are lots of people who feel they were conned by the Lib Dems, tuition fees and now civil liberties for example.

            I suggest you go back to a lib Dem forum – I don’t think the Labour Party needs your vote, there are plenty who have seen through their false promises and are coming back to us. Look at the polls.

          • Noelinho

            Labour’s record on civil liberties in recent years hasn’t been particularly good, to be honest, but that’s besides the point.

            I don’t think it’s a great strategy to call people stupid, and nor is it a great strategy to blindly assume I’m a Lib Dem.

            Saying Labour doesn’t need someone’s vote does rather go against the way politics works. Labour should be fighting for votes, not condescending people and suggesting they vote for other parties because they’re stupid. Politics doesn’t condescend, it engages.

          • coventrian

            ‘I don’t think it’s a great strategy to call people stupid, and nor is it a great strategy to blindly assume I’m a Lib Dem.’

            1. You are stupid (see 2)
            2. You told us you voted Lid Dem in 2010

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=36910622 Edward Carlsson Browne

    The notion that voter ID doesn’t matter is nonsense. The problem, according to most reports (certainly John Mann’s) was that our voter ID was crap and that to the extent the sea-change on the ground was noted, the campaign did not think to change direction. Better voter ID, that actually listens, is the answer.

    The rest of this is things Anthony Painter always says, and hence his complaints about the ‘Westminster frame’ are disingenuous at the very best.

    • Brumanuensis

      Agree about voter ID. Marsha Singh’s agent defecting to Respect probably didn’t help either.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=564361715 Jeff Maughan

       At the end of the day, on the morning of the election the campaign would have had a certain number of labour promises, which it then had to knock up. 

      The questions I would like to know are, how many promises did the campaign claim to have on that Thursday morning, and out of those promises, how many actually voted labour? 

      Could somebody, possibly, have “overestimated” the level of these promises?  It might be wise to see who had access to CC to input these promises, and possibly a little bit of “checking-back” over them may be in order.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Homfray/510980099 Mike Homfray

      I suppose it would be very difficult to have good voter ID if in the past the voter had been Labour, but changed their mind in the last few days before the election which appears to be happening here

  • Daniel Speight

    Yet wasn’t the whole New Labour idea based on not doing politics. Once you start to ban words like equality, (Hattersley’s reportage), and avoid words like socialism and class, where are you going to find your political ideas.

    • http://twitter.com/gonzozzz dave stone

      Yes. We no longer have the vocabulary to do politics so there’s the retreat into nonsense babble: squeezed middle etc.

      In truth, we handed Galloway’s victory to him on a plate. All the concerns he addresses are out of bounds for us:

      Privatisation? Labour is pro-privatisation (“reform”) but can’t say so because no one would be able to differentiate us from the Tories.

      Afghanistan? Everyone knows our presence there serves no purpose but no one within Labour will admit this.

      Austerity? Just do it a little bit less and slower than the Tories but most probably wouldn’t notice the change of pace, and anyway, as with the Tories, it would be used as an excuse for “reform” (privatisation/delivering services in tough times) – but don’t tell the electorate what “reform” really means.

      Then along comes Galloway, states the obvious and reflects how a great many Labour voters feel and… bingo!

  • Brumanuensis

    There’s a lot of truth in what you write, particularly about the hollowing-out of British politics, as the political class’ inate conservatism leads them eschew any discussions that might ‘get out of hand’. However your argument would ring slightly truer if, after saying:

    ‘Politics is about open engagement and dialogue’.

    You hadn’t then written about ‘Pravda-like blogs’, presumably referring to Shifting Grounds. Are you suggesting that Shifting Grounds is an official Labour Party publication, because if not I don’t really see how the Pravda analogy makes sense. If you favour debate and discussion, then you have to take the rough and the smooth. Calling for debate and then complaining because someone writes something you don’t approve of is a bit of a cop-out.

    Equally, as Sunny Hundal noted earlier in the thread, I must have missed your article where you chided Dan Hodges for repeatedly deriding his opponents as ‘Flat-Earthers’. Pravda-like, nay? Or repeatedly accused new party members of being ‘entrants’ seeking to destroy it. Not very pluralistic.

    It was also help if you gave a better idea of how this great discussion was going to be organised. Should it be CLP centred? Should we have primaries? How does a party accommodate pluralism and yet present a united front? How do we incorporate democratic structures whilst not lapsing into inchorence and renewed factionalism? Given what you wrote a while back about the Labour Party ‘not being the Salvation Army’, what line should we draw between ‘political work’ and broader ‘community engagement’?

    Your thoughts?

    • Brumanuensis

      There’s something else rattling around my mind now. When you said:

      ‘Labour did campaigning, George Galloway did politics’.

      That troubles me. Galloway’s approach was typical demagoguery, very much a matter of playing off factions within the community against one another. This is surely the antithesis of the vision of ‘politics’, as a process of discussion and incorporation of voter’s opinions, that you appear to prefer? Why use Galloway as an example then?

      • Anthony Painter

        It may not be the type of politics I like – racial division locally, claims of class politics for an external audience….but it is politics. Admittedly, it’s pretty crude and rudimentary. We can do better.

        • Brumanuensis

          Fair enough. Point taken.

        • coventrian

          ‘racial division locally’ Total nonsense, Galloway got big majorities in the so-called ‘White’ wards like Clayton. Your analysis is an evidence-free zone. It was your fellow Blairite Phil Woolas who campaigned using the politics of racial division.

    • Anthony Painter

      CLP centred- yes.
      Primaries – yes.
      Pluralism and united front- by have a greater diversity of representation facilitated by, amongst other things, primaries. And a less ‘message driven’ politics. More open policy engagement with networks of interest. Unity will come from leadership ultimately. Whatever type is party you have that’s the reality whether open or closed.
      Factionalism – we’re there already : see the various comments here.
      A line shouldn’t be drawn between community engagement, politics and elections as such. One of my worries about community organising and its relationship to the party is that we forget that all three ultimately have to go together. Having said that, electoral politics dominates all at the moment so I was probably more tough on community organising than I needed to be – but there’s still not been any thinking through how these things work together.

      • Brumanuensis

        Ok, thanks. I have a better grasp of where you’re coming from now.

        I would say firstly that I’m not sure how we could mesh a CLP-centred politics with a primaries system. The latter takes power away from the former and leaves CLPs as little more than a local leafleting group. As other people on the thread have pointed out, many CLPs will become even more denuded of members and become less capable of engaging with the electorate in the manner you prescribe.

        On the pluralism business, diversity of view-points is good, but again I don’t follow how you reconcile ‘unity will come from leadership’ and ‘less message driven politics’. A political party has to be able to impose discipline upon itself, otherwise it just disintegrates. It’s one thing to argue that the process of arriving at a consensus is too leader-centred – and I share that view – but what you appear to be saying is that the leader will persuade people to share his views. What if he doesn’t? Who decides if the networks of interest cannot come to a conclusion? How do we make unpopular, but necessary, decisions? Ultimately someone will have to lose an argument and yet abide by the outcome. I’m not sure how your proposal deals with that tension. And whilst I agree that a lot of message-driven politics is sterile and/or comic (i.e. ‘These strikes are wrong’), you presumably agree that a party will need to develop clear lines of attack to target its opponents? Politics does need a narrative after all, particularly if you’re trying to persuade people that you have a ‘plan’ for government, rather than a random set of policies.

        Re. Factionalism. Yes, but that doesn’t explain how your approach will prevent that.

        On community organising, I agree with what you say about the primacy of politics. What would you do to make them work better together, just as a starting point?

        • Anthony Painter

          My approach won’t prevent factionalism. It’s a fact of politics. What it will prevent though is the machine becoming a factional prize. Open politics dilutes factionalism because no one can control it.

          If discipline has to be imposed it is because we are in a low trust environment created by a lack of procedural fairness and openness. If there’s a way of resolution or fair rules of the game then that is less fraught. Yes, more pluralism means less imposed discipline but that also means a greater way of responding to people’s concerns. It will be messy but Labour will be able to adapt better. People respect politicians with greater independence of thought.

          Don’t see a problem re CLPs/primaries. CLPs shortlist, then a wider process/vote.

          Your qs on ‘what would I do’ is so,wide…..there’s dozens of examples from local reps having jobs fairs, to setting up community gardens, lunch clubs, establishing a neighbourhood watch in response to concern about crime. Always though a party has to build its organisation and the best local parties have recruited 100s of volunteers etc. There is a dozen or so CLPs that I’ve heard of doing politics as opposed to just campaigning. MPs do it all the time of course but parties don’t in general

  • Sibboleth

    Isn’t this, basically, the argument you make about everything?

    • Anthony Painter

      Basically yes. Don’t know how I stay awake at the keyboard.

  • http://twitter.com/suey2y Sue Marsh

    Awesome article. Nails hit firmly on the head. 

    • http://twitter.com/anthonypainter Anthony Painter

      Thank you Sue.

  • Pemakill

    I’ll never vote conservative, but I wont vote for a party that doesn’t
    stand up for the unemployed, the historic poor, the working poorand the disabled…a very unpopular government is now opposed
    by a slightly more unpopular opposition with no ideas!

  • Franwhi

    If we don’t do politics we certainly don’t do democracy very well either. Britain may have the mother of all parliaments but there is a significant and growing democratic deficit in this country. Where is the pluralism of political party ? With the three big parties dancing on the head of a pin there really is so little to choose between them and they in turn have a self interest in marginalising other voices. Look at the shocking way the SNP are treated in Westminster despite having such a democratic mandate from the Scottish people and in this respect Labour is even more culpable than the other two. Look at the sabotage of voting reform in the A.V. debate which we now learn was strategised by none other than Peter Cruddas – again those Labour members who joined this cabal – John Reid, Tom Harris etc., should hang their heads in shame. Then there’s the unaccountability of MP’s which allows for all the lobbying, networking, schmoozing, media, spin and intrigue which ends up in places like the Levenson inquiry. Is there anyone group apart from MP’s who gets such generous renumeration from the public purse without having to show value or even show up ?
    We need more direct democracy and if we can have costly IT projects which administer, monitor and track so many aspects of our lives why can’t we refresh our politics using systems which allow communities and groups to feed into the parliamentary process in a more responsive way. Indeed why stop at Westminster – we should have more access to the decision-making processes of the EU parliament as well. It’s more than just Labour that needs refounded – it’s democracy.      

  • The Lady

    Sometimes the local campaigning get carried away by the percentages and figures. We need to remember the voters are people and when campaigning the campaigners should remember we are in a local area and what is important for that area? Also I do think in some areas the Labour Party take it for granted just because there is a lot of Labour voters in the area the campaign can become a bit too relax, and we do not campaign as much in that area.  Do not just go to Mosques, go to other churches as well. Hands on and knowledge always gets the best results.

  • Pemakill

    Ed  is a useful idiot…
    he benefits RESPECT and the SNP because 
    the whole party are so blue we can’t see
    concern for the commoner any longer.
    The greens and LD’s are dead in the water,
    and so are the conservatives…they’re dead!
    BUT…
    INDEPENDENTS will win in local elections…
    call me back after elections LOL!
    01983 612666
    x

    • treborc

      Why do you want people to phone you back, sounds rather odd to me I would say  this is some form of scam.

    • mikestallard

      And have you ever thought that, dressed as a Mutawwa, the Kafir politician Galloway might actually be a useful idiot himself?

  • Pemakill

    If my comments are all deleted (6)
    Just shows Labour is a toff party!
    champagne socialists…
    Join RESPECT or SNP! 

  • AlanGiles

    Whether you like him or his message isn’t the point: George Galloway is an orator – there are very few of them in politics today – Cameron Clegg and Ed Miliband  look and sound more like your old geography master at school – jackets off, jesticulating, desperate to “explain” in words of one syllable. GG was offering Bradford West something more than a photo opportunity in Greggs, or some spare petrol in a gerry-can

    Politics needs orators – those who can inspire (as GG obviously did – he didn’t “just win” by a few hundred votes – a majority of 10,000 plus means he gave you a good thrashing). You need people who can inspire – a bit of a poet if you like; love him or hate him GG is a Dylan Thomas – Ed, David and Nick are Pam Ayres.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Homfray/510980099 Mike Homfray

      The problem is that many demagogues are great orators – and we must try to discourage the cult of personality as I think it leads to very bad politics

      • AlanGiles

        Good morning Mike. Problem is the cult of personality has been with us (in living memory) since Churchill. Mrs Thatcher and Blair were brilliant exponents – that is not to say I approve of it or them. The less “colourful” politicians (Alec Douglas-Home, John Major, Jim Callaghan to some extent) certainly the dreadful  Duncan-Smith, have all seemed “lesser” characters, and didn’t fare well – at least till they farewelled.

        I hold no brief for GG but he mesmerises his audiences. Whether it is genuine or not he can make his audience believe in him (Ken Livingstone had a similar quality, once). Like Ghandi said when he visited the USSR – “I have seen the future and it is good”, he may have been wrong, but obviously he was convinced by what he heard

        This timid deputy bank-manager approach of modern politicans, like ED, DC and NC with their management speak is never going to inspire anyone – especially not young voters. At least GG proves you don’t have to be young (he is 58) to inspire the young. Ditto K Livingstone when he ran as an Independent in 2000. He wiped the floor with Frank Dobson, who is a very nice man, and wouldn’t have taken Blair’s old buck. Frank was genuine, he was co-erced into running for Labour but he didn’t have the KL charisma.

        Even now, instead of accepting the vote, some writers on LL are still mithering on about pasties. Perhaps somebody will form “Pasty Labour” to go with Purple, Red, Blue etc etc!. Somebody yesterday alleged that young people were being “instructed” to vote for GG by their elders. None of these people in the privacy of the voting booth had the independence not to do so if they didn’t want to?.

        It might explain things if GG had won by 200/300 votes but it goes deeper than this.

        I have to say GG and several other people have really explained it: the three main parties are now seen as too alike. Ed went on yesterday about anti-social behaviour, and more or less evoked the memory of Blair wanting policemen to march young drunken boys off to a cashpoint to pay an instant fine (too bad a few days later his own son was discovered in a Leicester Square gutter tired and emotional!). This might have something to do with the fact that yesterday was “law and order day” in the London Mayoral farce.

        “Me too” politics will get Labour nowhere. Sadly the Blairites still believe that all Labour needs is a fresh coat of Blairite paint, and a new red rose bush, and everything in the garden will be lovely. They are deluded and the sooner they wake up to the fact that the tricks of 1997 will not work in 2015 the more likely the rot can be stopped.

  • mikestallard

    “There will be the George Galloways, whoever follows Nick Griffin on the extreme right and populist right figures. ”
    Actually, no. I myself follow right wing blogs and the general consensus, amid all the despair (we feel very much as old Labour did under Tony Blair), is to look to UKIP. The BNP is ridiculous to most of us, actually. And as for the dreadful EDL! I mean really!
    (Nigel Farage can drink journalists under the table I learn from the Spectator).

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Homfray/510980099 Mike Homfray

    Just read the Shifting Ground blog post. 

    Oh, yes, very clearly applies to people like you and your negative views – no wonder you didn’t like it!

  • barsacq

    “Take a look at the French election to see the future. Neither Sarkozy nor Hollande are polling above 30% in first round voting.”
     
    That proves absolutely nothing as historically it is quite rare in the French presidential elections for any candidate to score much higher than 30% in the first round due to the large number of candidates. The last one I remember was Mitterand in 1974 with over 40% and he still lost in the second round to VGD whom he soundly beat in the first round.

  • Dave Postles

    Politics?  How’s this?  LibDems left at the starting gate are now only two furlongs behind in the debate about civil liberties.  Well, they are three furlongs adrift in the issue of secret courts and special advocates.  Clegg was left in the stalls about the extension of surveillance.  Now, was this matter discussed in the Quad?  It was intended to be in the Queen’s (whoever she is) Speech.  Did he quibble in the Quad or was the Quad bypassed.  Most of the LibDem MPs seem to have fallen, but their riders have remounted them so they can send a missive of protest after the other horses have bolted.  They only look decent in the paddock.

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