A new welfare bargain

June 27, 2012 5:41 pm

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Welfare is Labour’s toxic issue. Recent evidence comes from a YouGov poll for Prospect: 74 per cent agree that ‘Government pays out too much in benefits; welfare levels overall should be reduced’.

Ed Miliband has recognised that Labour must be “a party that rewards contribution, not worklessness … We must be once again the party of the grafters.” But the answer must not and cannot simply be to retreat to a reactive and populist stance. Under the last three Labour governments, the conditionality of benefits was significantly tightened, fraud fell sharply, and, until the 2008 financial crash, unemployment and worklessness reduced. Those who argue that Labour must re-establish a reputation for toughness miss the essential point. If 13 years of toughening rhetoric, and the policies to match it, haven’t persuaded public opinion, it’s unlikely more of the same will produce a different result.

And although the politics are challenging, we shouldn’t assume outright public hostility. The picture’s much more nuanced. There is public concern that the social security system apparently allows people to claim benefits when they ought to be in work. The YouGov polling found that around two thirds of people believe that a substantial minority of benefit claimants ‘lie about their circumstances in order to obtain higher welfare benefits or deliberately refuse to take work where suitable jobs are available.’ These estimates are clearly inaccurate – for example, only 1.3 per cent of calls to the Benefit Fraud Hotline result in a prosecution. But perceptions about the level of ‘scrounging’ may lead to the high levels of support found for cutting benefits to unemployed people or to ‘unmarried single mothers’ (of course the benefit system makes no distinction as to whether single parents have been married or not).

Yet when it comes to other groups, support for cutting benefits is weak. Only 11 per cent think that disability living allowance should be cut, and there are “minorities ranging from 9 per cent to 23 per cent in favour of cutting pensioners’ benefits, benefits to the low paid, and child benefit for families paying standard rate income tax.”

Public attitudes look remarkably in line with the mantra ‘work for those who can, security for those who can’t’, which proved a winning combination in 1997. There’s no reason to think that if the public actually believed Labour would deliver it, it would be any different today. The question is how we can convince them that we can do this while maintaining core values of fairness and autonomy.

Developing convincing policy to ensure ‘work for those who can’ requires us first to understand why people aren’t working. Current levels of worklessness are primarily an economic problem – not one caused by benefits that are too high, or ‘a culture of benefit dependency’. So creating jobs and facilitating employment must lie at the heart of our welfare reforms. Changing demographics make the problem all the more significant: we will only be able to support an ageing population if we maximise the labour market participation of working age people. Women, young people, disabled people, those from BME communities, older people themselves, are all working below capacity.

But even when jobs were plentiful, and Labour was on track to achieve its goal of ‘full employment’, the gains from work were not sufficient. Employment that fails to deliver fairness at work and which doesn’t offer adequate rewards is unlikely to prove sustainable. As Ed Miliband has argued, models of responsible capitalism place social justice and economic efficiency hand in hand. So we need a strategy to embed decent gains from work, especially for those who currently fare least well in employment. This in turn could deliver improved business performance.

While policies such as better linking the education and skills systems with employment or tackling segregation in the labour market may fall outside the scope of welfare reform directly, the politics require us explicitly to link the two. A new form of ‘welfare bargain’ could therefore encompass the requirement to take up suitable employment with minimum guarantees of a job, plus wider support and entitlement, both for those looking for work and those in work..

There is a second element of the welfare bargain: adequate social protection for those temporarily out of work, or unlikely to be able to work in the near or long-term future.

The problem at present is double edged. On the one hand, there’s a perception that people are getting ‘something for nothing.’ Yet for too many people at present the system offers very nearly ‘nothing for something’, with very low levels of out of work benefits, even for those who have paid contributions.

This analysis is driving new interest in models of contribution, which could offer the prospect of more generous out of work benefits and reinvigorate the concept of social insurance, while reflecting the public desire that what you get out reflects what you put in. This is fertile territory for Labour. Further work is needed on affordability, but effective contribution models both promote and have as a prerequisite for their success improved labour market participation and higher rewards from work.

At the same time, we need to highlight the social justice case for benefits that help to meet additional costs, and the benefits to society as a whole from facilitating and recognising the social participation of those for whom labour market participation is impossible or curtailed.

Building popular support for welfare reform policies requires fair treatment both for those who are currently receiving benefits AND those who are not.

Convincing the public that the system is fair is a tough ask. Hostile messages, combined with policies that appear to address perceived unfairnesses but which don’t address the true drivers of worklessness, will prove ineffective and unsustainable, and deepen public scepticism. Instead, it’s possible that gains could be made by promoting a message of good work for those who can, and real security for those who cannot, alongside shifting the emphasis to the obligations that rest not just on individuals alone, but also on the wider economic actors who play a part in delivering this.

One way to make the case about fairness would be to shape the rhetoric around a welfare state – and employment system – that promotes independence and autonomy, providing a positive challenge to the government’s preferred language of ‘dependency’.

Progressives who hope for a silver bullet of welfare reform that conforms to our values, brings public opinion onside, and comes without effort, may be disappointed by this prescription. But these are complex issues that require complex solutions. While this doesn’t easily translate to soundbite politics, the tone of debate and political rhetoric are important. The Labour narrative needs to move away from any attempt to out-tough the Tories to one that speaks of the dignity of work and participation.

This an extract from the new Fabian Society/FEPS publication “The Shape of Things to Come: Labour’s New Thinking” edited by John Denham

  • Keith Skewes

    The Labour Party stoked prejudice against benefit claimants itself rather than try to disabuse the general public in respect to its misunderstanding and ignorance. There can be nothing but grief in this approach. Once upon a time the Tories promised to take money away from people who refused offers of work and that between them the Work Programme and Universal Credit would get everybody who could work into work, including people formerly considered as sick or disabled; now, before the Universal Credit has even been properly piloted and trialled, the are seeking to move the goalposts from “we will take money away from recalcitrant people who refuse offers of paid work ” to “we will take money away from innocent people who have received no offers of work” which stinks on ice. The Tories have gradually moved away from a mythology about “forcing” benefit claimants into jobs during the worst recession in 100 years  to selectively punishing certain selected groups of people – most of the the under 25s (no housing benefit), benefit claimants with large families (no child benefit), long-term unemployed (workfare coupled with progressively reduced benefit payments until, I suppose, such payments reach zero) and so on – who are almost certainly completely innocent, want to work, have done everything they can to improve their situation, but have been demonised enough by the media and a morally bankrupt government to enable them to impoverish and unhome by stripping them of support. This is vicious, primitive, and brutal stuff.  

    Yet Labour is doing next to nothing to combat this process.

    In fact until the Labour Party actively and shamefully exacerbated this demonisation.

    Labour created the welfare state and should be defending it tooth and nail along with the helpless and vulnerable men, women and children its umbrella shields and protects.

    Why isn’t it?

    It can’t all be attributed to the fact that Liam Byrne is a tw*t!  (Insert your own vowel!)

    • treborc

      You said it better then I can, so I shall not bother, well said .

      • AlanGiles

        James and Keith have said what needs to be said. 

        I would just add regarding Ms. Green’s article:”there’s a perception that people are getting ‘something for nothing.’ ”

        A perception which several Labour Secretaries of State did nothing to discourage: Blunkett, Darling, Alan Johnson, and most maliciously, James Purnell and Hazel Blears, who encouraged the tabloidd hysteria in 2009: Blears it was who helped out Purnell as he forced the Freud “reforms” through the HoC, with her little anecdote of just happening to be canvassing on a weekday afternoon and discovering an entire family still in their night attire, watching daytime TV – an anecdote which I assume was as “genuine” as Purnell’s false claim for cleaning.

        And finally, if labour want to be taken seriously on welfare and their favourite word “fairness”, Liam Byrne cannot remain the Shadow Secretary: apart from anything else Byrne is so committed to Parliament that he wanted to become the Mayor for Birmingham (good for the people of Birmingham they had more sense)

        • treborc

          I’m not bothered I will not be voting at the next election so could not care a dam what labour does or does not do.

          It’s become a second rate Tory party filled with career politicians who would cut each others throats to be in power. Once they get in they end up doing what we have seen for the last 13 years

  • James

    “74 per cent agree that ‘Government pays out too much in benefits; welfare levels overall should be reduced.’”

    So what? They’re wrong! How many people want to bring back hanging? How many people believe in UFOs? How many people believe that Scotsmen are mean, or that Welshmen are dishonest, or that Irishmen are stupid? Is Labour going to base its policies on urban myths or facts? When the public are wrong you disabuse them of their ignorance. Instead of trying to compete with the Tories as far as awfulness goes Labour should be pointing out the terrible things that would happen if they had their way: thousands of young people homeless, generations of children malnourished, adults reduced through no fault of their own to destitution and dispossession in 21st century England. This isn’t what the public want.

    Edmund Burke said all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

    And yet nothing is exactly what the Labour Party seems intent on doing.

    No wonder so many voters have withdrawn their support.

    • Quiet_Sceptic

      Instead of trying to force people to change their views, which is unlikely to be successful, it might be more beneficial to understand why people feel that way.

      The article points out that most people support benefits for certain groups – pensioners, the low paid, families with children. Clearly, people do support key parts of the welfare system.

      The challenge is to understand why people are so negative about the benefits system as a whole, which features are so disliked and why. Then you can address them and make a case for the system.

      Or you can just shout that everyone is wrong and we are right.

      • James

        I am not suggesting forcing views on anybody only explaining the truth to them rather than propagating falsehoods like Chinese Whispers. For example the problem isn’t that benefit claimants are allocated council houses before people in work but that a gross shortage of vacant council houses forces councils to ration them and offer them to people based on need rather than offer tenancies freely to people who need them. Another problem, so called,  isn’t that people receive benefits like Jobseeker’s Allowance or Housing Benefit in order not to starve but that they have been denied or have been unable to secure work or are in work too low paid to allow them to support themselves without assistance from the State. As far as welfare is concerned when you unpick the facts from the myths and assorted fictions the truth is often the opposite of the most common view.  

        The general public are looking down a telescope in the wrong direction.

        They cannot see clearly what is going on.

        What is going on needs to be explained to them clearly and simply.

        This IS what the Labour Party should be doing.

        • John Dore

          …… and this is when it goes horribly wrong, when you as an individual think you know better than 65m people.

          The general public are not thick and neither are they sheep; respect your electorate and they will respect you. They have eyes and they see what’s going on. They live this every day.

          To think you know better is arrogance, hang on a minute. Weren’t their millions on the streets opposing the Iraq war and didn’t an arrogant person go to war thinking he knew better?

          If I were you I’d be embarrassed about that post.

          • James

            How many people in the world believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead? How many people believe in creationism? Or intelligent design? How many Rastafarians believe Haile Selassie is God? Or that God was an astronaut that visited us by spaceship  from another planet? It doesn’t matter one jot! We do not live in a consensus reality where majority opinion determines the laws of the universe. The general public IS hopelessly misinformed and guileless about many things not least politics and politicians. For example if you were to show fifty men and women selected at random from the street pictures of members of the cabinet and shadow cabinet most wouldn’t be able to recognise more than one or two of them. Nor, if asked, would they have even the vaguest clue as per what legislation is wending its way towards the statute book or how, once there, it will affect their lives or the lives of their children and neighbours? 

            So in my opinion you are the one that is wrong.

            The average man and woman in the street IS factually ignorant in respect to what is going on politically not through stupidity but because of misinformation absorbed from the media and elsewhere which has given them a piecemeal  false and distorted perception of the world in which they live.

            Given the facts and I have no doubt whatsoever that the British public usually do make the correct decisions but in order to be able to make useful decisions the public needs must be in possession of all of the facts and disabused of malicious fictions.

            “Weren’t their millions on the streets opposing the Iraq war and didn’t an arrogant person go to war thinking he knew better?”

            That’s a extraordinarily stupid thing to write since my point was that misinformed multitudes can be misled into allowing atrocities to take place, e.g., the Rwandan genocide where 800,000 Tutsis were massacred by the Hutu majority, not that ALL multitudes are wrong in everything they do, especially when in full possession of the fact, or that powerful informed individuals are always right.

          • John Dore

            You sound off as if you know it all and we have seen no evidence of this all knowing intellect of yours. I’d rather listen to the herd than you where you speak as if your written word is fact.

            Your comparison to the Rwandan Genocide further does not reinforces your point at all. Rwanda is a different culture to us, has a controlled media and extremely limited education. There is no comparison.

            Are you 15 or so?

          • James

            You are a silly Billy but I am even more silly for taking you seriously and wasting my time responding to you.

            Good night.

          • John Dore

            Lost the argument and went to bed with your 15 year old tail between your legs.

          • Simon

            Surely an argument has to have two sides. I’ve missed your side of the argument, mate. What are you arguing for exactly?

          • John Dore

            You have just changed your ID from James to Simon, haven’t you.

          • Simon

            No answer, eh? I’m beginning to think you’re just playing silly buggers and trolling for attention. You need to grow up.

          • treborc

             troll spot on.

          • Hugh

            “How many Rastafarians believe Haile Selassie is God”

            He’s a bloody good runner, but I think that’s overstating it.

            Can I ask how you know the general public are wrong?

          • James

            I did reply to you, Hugh, but my comment went straight to moderation. Hopefully you will be able to peruse it later. Or not. Whatever.

          • Hugh

             I look forward to seeing it.

    • Losange

      The mistake you are making, my friend, is believing that good men (and women) in the Labour Party are standing by doing nothing. The truth is much worse than passivity or inactivity or dithering. There are no good men or good women left in the upper echelons of the Labour Party any more you see. That’s why Labour doesn’t stand up for what is right and decent. Explanation over. Done and dusted. Simple as. End of. 

  • ThePurpleBooker

    I think Kate Green is right in most of what she says but she is missing the point. We need a welfare state that is really about contribution and for too many people in our time in office that was not the case. Who do you support, the single mum who tries everything she can to get a job to fend for her child and will even go hungry as well as working many shifts or the single mum who does not care and remains on the dole. One is the woman who we should back 100% , the other is the person who needs an active government to change her ways. We’ve been tough on welfare as well as compassionate, remember it is Labour, even under Atlee, which called idleness an evil. Let’s get back to that. A Jobs Guarantee, National Salary Insurance, free universal childcare, regional benefit caps, training or community work for the long-term unemployed, rent controls and licensing regarding landlords and housing benefit. We need to have an honest but radical conversation with people about welfare, not descend into an austerity plot to cut benefits from disabled people and to push people onto the dole but not to descend into ‘softy-softy’ approach which does not care and regards any form of work experience or training as well as conditionality as ‘slave labour’. We need to be rooted in our values, rediscover our radicalism and communicate our vision with people. Let’s start on welfare.

    • Quiet_Sceptic

       So what’s National Salary Insurance and how would it be funded?

      Personally Id have thought raising the first 6 months of contributions based job seekers allowance back to something close to a subsistence level would be a good way of demonstrating our commitment to the contributory principle.

      • ThePurpleBooker

        Well, Jobseeker’s Allowance in its current form is not working. The idea of National Salary Insurance is that workers pay into National Insurance contributions, with higher incomes requring higher contributions and lower incomes requiring lower contributions. If you make that full set of contributions, then you will recieve 70% of your former salary when you lose your job for six months to one year, but it will be capped at £200 per week. Then once you get work and have secure employment, you repay that money at zeo-real rate of interest. So that is National Salary Insurance. It is good for growth because the unemployed will have more stable incomes and it also rewards contribution. That is the best way of demonstrating our commitment to the contributory principle rather than retaining the failed status quo.

    • John Dore

      The welfare state in its current form is not the welfare state the founders wanted. It  discourages risk taking and growth; for  a few it has become a lifestyle choice;  it permits fecklessness. It allows for regions of our country to do less well that others. 
      If you want a roof over your head, colour TV and 3 squares a day, the welfare state gives is to you. Its not a bed of luxury but can be quite nice if you are adept at working the system.

      Visionary people in the party such as Purnell and Byrne are derided by the tw*ts (feel free to insert a vowel of your choice), thanks to Keith for this turn of phrase below. They recognise that for places such as Liverpool the lot of the people will be bettered faster by the people themselves and far more than anything that the government can do for them. You needs to create the environment for success. This means an incentive, guidance and resources, but the people have to make it happen.

      More Branson and less dole. What would happen if we could get 100 more businesses employing 50 people each; would that make a difference? What would the effect of the multiplier be?

      Socialism cannot give you jobs, capitalism can. The question is how do we drive responsible capitalism.

      We need the debate on the welfare state now, we invented it and it is our right to refine it.

      • Losange

        If Byrne and Purnell were right why has everything got worse? Why was the Flexible New Deal such a failure? Why haven’t the people expelled by ATOS from Incapacity Benefit found jobs? Not one single thing Byrne and Purnell have done have succeeded or bettered any lives. What on earth are you going on about? 

        • ThePurpleBooker

          Rubbish. Byrne was not even in charge of welfare when we were in government.

          • Losange

             I’m Cool and the Gang with that and entirely happy to give James Purnell full discredit for all of the failures mentioned. 

      • Losange

        One hundred businesses employing fifty people each jointly employ a mere five thousand people. Peanuts. Wouldn’t make any difference to the country or to the employees themselves, probably, if they were part-timers on the minimum wage.

        • JoeDM

           We must always ensure that it pays to work and not be unemployed.  

          • Losange

            There are two ways to get a differential between benefits and wages: lower benefits or increase wages. Which do you advocate?

          • JoeDM

            Benefits for a household should be set as a proportion of the potential minimum wage for a household.  That way it will always pay to work. 

          • Losange

            Still no good. What about large families with no bread winners? Benefits HAVE to be calculated based on need not as a percentage of some fixed baseline. Many poor families have more than 2.4 children for example and so have greater needs than an average family.

          • Dave Postles

             ’ We must always ensure that it pays to work and not be unemployed.’
            From the Bob Diamond Business School (on the epistemology of executive remuneration after receiving his Golden Goodbye package in 2014) – allegedly.

      • Losange

        One hundred businesses employing fifty people each jointly employ a mere five thousand people. Peanuts. Wouldn’t make any difference to the country or to the employees themselves, probably, if they were part-timers on the minimum wage.

        • JoeDM

          We need to creat the conditions that encourage new businesses to be formed and succeed.

          Remember that most people in this country are employed  by SMEs not mega corporations or the State.   That is where real jobs growth has always come from.

          • Dave Postles

             SMEs
            Here you go then: PCSpecialist of Holmfirth – excellent products, delivery and service.  I’ve recently bought a 64-bit small-form factor desktop PC from them with 8Gb RAM and latest Asus motherboard for  just over £300.  They assembled it and bench tested it.  I’ve also had a notebook with similar spec (64-bit, 8Gb RAM) for a similar price. 

          • ThePurpleBooker

            Which is why we need to cut VAT and have a one-year National Insurance holiday.

      • Keith Skewes

        I’d rather you didn’t plagiarise my posts or mention my name in any of yours, John, because I wouldn’t want people to mistakenly conclude that we’re associated in any way. Thank you in advance for your co-operation.

      • ThePurpleBooker

        I agree. If we want to be true to the ethical socialist and social democratic values of which we came from then we must accept the reality that the as John has said, the modern welfae state is not what Beveridge had in mind, in fact quite the opposite. Such a shame that idiots like Keith, treborc1 and Alan Giles decry this and are apologists for the shirkers, rather than the workers. Responsible capitalism and reponsible welfare go hand in hand – responsibility from top to bottom – in the boardroom to the benefits office.

        • Dave Postles

           Purple Bookie
          Yes, I’ll take your odds of 1000-1 for Blair being the next PM – a fiver on his nose.

          • AlanGiles

            I do wish the “Purple Booker” who is too frightened to write under his/her real name and once had the screenname “Ex LibDem” on LL would desist from calling other posters  ”idiots”.

            One can only assume that the reason PB writes under an alias is because they are ashamed of some of the tripe they do serve up on here.

            Glass houses, Booker, glass houses :-)

          • ThePurpleBooker

            I have never been a Liberal Democrat. Labour through and through.

          • Alan Giles

            When you click on your avatar on occassion it has shown “Ex Lib Dem”.

            Anyway, be that as it may, perhaps if you wish to write very personal abuse in future, you will have the decency to put your real name to it?. It looks very squalid  - and cowardly – to hide.

        • treborc

           At least I never ran from the Liberals to come to new labour, Purple hooker.

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Homfray/510980099 Mike Homfray

          Beveridge assumed full male employment and most women as child rearers. It was assumed that benefits would largely be short term because periods of unemployment would be short.

          • ThePurpleBooker

            I have always been in the  Labour Party since I was 14.

          • Hibernian

            A whole two years?!

    • AlanGiles


      A Jobs Guarantee,”

      One question: Where are all these jobs that people like you and Byrne and Duncan-Smith fantasize about?

      • ThePurpleBooker

        Firstly, this shows how foolish you are. IDS dos not fantasize about jobs, he cuts them which is why unemployment is so high under this failure of a government and their tragic economic policy. We were doing a Jobs Guarantee of sorts in government through the Future Jobs Fund for young people who were unemployed, surely it is time we make it tougher and apply it to all unemployed people. We have the Five Point Plan for Growth and Jobs on top of this policy, which could generate several thousands of jobs but we could also double the bank levy, and use the proceeds to fund the Jobs Guarantee seen as it will only cost £1.5bn, which could be found by an increase in the bank levy or by cutting government waste.

        • treborc

           We were doing a Jobs Guarantee of sorts in government through the Future Jobs Fund for young people who were unemployed,

          Interesting.

        • AlanGiles

          Everybody is foolish except you, oh hysterical one :-)

          Duncan-Smith like Grayling and Byrne have often said everybody should be in work, and they are very naughty for not being, so they have to be punished. I wasn’t asking you where the jobs MIGHT come from, or where you would LIKE them to come from, or what we COULD do: as of June 28th 2012 – where, actually ARE they?

          • ThePurpleBooker

            You need to go back to school. Firstly, everyone should be in work. We are the Labour Party – the clue is in the name. Full employment should be our dream. Secondly, your point did not make sense. We could do a bonus tax to invest in creating new jobs or cutting VAT or an NI holiday but the point is that people will be guaranteed work. In other words they will get a job – any job – through the private sector or voluntary sector but the state being a ‘last resort’. But if someone refuses to work why should they continue to be on benefits?

    • treborc

       You really do need to go back to the Liberals some of your stuff is more aligned to that bunch.

      • ThePurpleBooker

        What the hell are you on. Firstly, you don’t even support Labour – you are some far-left RESPECT-supporting Trotskyist troll. Secondly, my ideas are left-of-centre. Thirdly, I have never been a Liberal Democrat.

  • Dave Postles

    It’s all been said below.  Thanks for these comments.  On a merely practical point, how can people contribute when they start their young lives without jobs, housing, and support?  Do you penalize them simply because they have not had the opportunity?  Labour really is hopelessly misguided.

    • John Dore

      You say that Labour are hopelessly misguided but I say that you are wrong. The truth of it is that all the industry we have came from somebody saying I’m going to start a business. That holds true for all the nationalised industries as well, they were all private.

      The issue is that when welfare becomes the norm, the need to get up and start your own business diminishes and the other people in the community that would benefit from the jobs created goes away.

      Labour is not hopelessly misguided, it is the supporters of the status quo. Labour knows the above to be true. The socialists think jobs just appear out of nowhere.

      • treborc

        Well I enjoyed that one.

        • LaurenceB

          There are already too many jokers on this site. If I were you I wouldn’t encourage them by acknowledging their presence.

          • treborc

            I cannot help it with this idiot, he’s now calling people 15 because they argue with his pure utter gibberish.

            They claim not to be socialist they hate the left and believe that labour is somehow the Tories.

            One has to have a laugh at the the plain stupidity of them. 

          • John Dore

            Whats laughable is that my views pretty much correspond with the mainstream view of the Labour front bench. WTF do you know? Given that it is unlikely that the PLP will look like the party you want, what are you doing here, you wont argue the toss. 

            By your own admission you don’t vote Labour. You can go and swing for it.

          • LaurenceB

            I beg you treborc to starve this joker of the oxygen of attention. Do not respond.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZPXYLRVP4XOIGGDJWAL6HUO7U4 David

            Interestingly this comment appeared on the front page as having been written by… treborc.

            Dirty tricks, a LL SNAFU, or something else?  The conspiracy antennae are quivering… :)

          • John Dore

            Usual crap then. Why not try to discuss.,….. oh we don’t have an argument. 

            Move along, only an epic fail here.

          • LaurenceB

            Is this what young people call this “alternative comedy”? 

          • Simon

            Is anybody laughing? There’s your answer.

          • John Dore

            No its the usual where somebody tries to make serious points and the loonies try to take the mick in return. 

            Keep it up, the country ain’t listening any more. Labour started the review of the welfare state and will have a policy on it come 2015 we need the DEBATE and not the PATHETIC jibes. Get over yourself.

          • LaurenceB

            I don’t get it.

          • treborc

             I beg you treborc to starve this joker of the oxygen of attention. Do not respond.

            See it’s allergic you cannot help your self because the bloke is a master troll

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZPXYLRVP4XOIGGDJWAL6HUO7U4 David

            I will confess I looked at this initially and saw the begging of yourself and suspected dirty tricks, but I now see you are quoting above: apologies for doubting you!

          • treborc

             I should have used “   never mind

      • James

        What is the solution then? Euthanasia for the sick, disabled, unemployed, single mothers? Workhouses or concentration camps where we can confine such people and get some productive labour out of them in return for a bowl of gruel and some straw on the floor to sleep on like an animal? Make them work on the land? Or down mines? Make the slave like criminals on a chain gang in return for pitiful benefits? Make the young sleep in tents or rough under bushes and bridges like they do in the Land of the Free? Or do you really believe that if we remove the welfare safety net once the dispossessed hit the deck they’ll bounce up as high as the sky, start up their own successful businesses (although bereft of capital) and become self-made men and women?

        Do you really seriously believe that £70.00 per week Jobseeker’s Allowance is stopping someone, somewhere, from becoming the next Richard Branson or Alan Sugar or Simon Cowell? 

        If you know the answers we’d all be obliged if you’d let us know.

        Personally you sound kind of bat-crap crazy to me.

        • John Dore

          Exactly the response I expected. At what point did I say make the sick or elderly suffer?

          I presented a rational argument all you come back with is the typical tribal BS that the 74% country laugh at. Its not £70 per week is it? There’s housing benefit, council tax paid. When you tot basic benefits for a family of 2, its circa 18.5k. That me ol’ mucker is the equivalent of 23k before tax or £12 per hour for a single breadwinner in the example I use.

          Do I seriously think that our welfare system stops people doing something that may result in the next British success I absolutely do, but then again I think before I post.

          • James

            Ever heard of a rhetorical question? 

            As you haven’t actually said anything definite in respect to what you actually propose as far as welfare reform goes I thought I offer you a few ideas just to get you going. 

             In respect to Council Tax and Housing Benefit I think I am correct in stating that the overwhelming majority of claimant for those benefits are members of the working poor not members of the unemployed so cuts in these benefits, unless specifically targeted at the unemployed, would hit the very people you claim are so incensed about “benefit scroungers”. I find it ironic that the people who are most vocal about “cutting welfare spending” are the very ones who would be most adversely affected after the implementation of such cuts. 

            You complain that the welfare system is bad, needs reform, mutter about disincentives and incentives and so on an so forth without identifying which groups of people and which benefits they depend on that should be cut or abolished. 

            Let me wax rhetorical and try to be helpful…

            Should all under 25 year olds be excluded from Housing Benefit? What about orphans? Or young people who’s parents have divorced, remarried, started new families and have no room to accommodate them? What about young people estranged from their families? Or families forced to downsize because of the “bedroom tax” who have no longer got a spare “childhood” bedroom to offer their son or daughter? And what about time-limited benefits which reduce by a fixed percentage with each year of unemployment? Is it fair to continually reduce the benefits of a fifty nine year old unemployed man with minor health problems who has done his best, tirelessly, to secure paid employment and yet has been repeatedly refused work by employers because of his age and general unfitness?

            … and so on and so forth….

            The combinations and permutations are endless.

            Here’s YOUR chance to put me straight.

            As far as the Housing Benefit cut to under 25s Cameron proposed earlier in the week  I think I should mention that it seems to be dead in the water based on the public’s reaction: 

            http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/

            So I wouldn’t jump on that band wagon if I were you. See what I mean about the public doing the right thing when fully informed about the consequences that result from political intention?

      • James

        “The socialists think jobs just appear out of nowhere.”

        While you are contending that significant numbers of jobs in the future will be generated by growing businesses founded by penniless benefit claimants motivated by threats of homelessness and destitution!

        Mentalist.

        • John Dore

          Call me what you will. But the world we live in cannot just create jobs out of thin air. Its never happened and never will. The only examples of mass job creation in the last 40 years are the Tiger economies. Their governments have created conditions for business to thrive and guess what the people that started them weren’t exactly rich to start with. 

          For places like Liverpool and and the North West to change something radical has to happen, that does not mean that benefits are denied or cut to the point of homelessness and destitution, they are just the words of another bloke who sees any discussion about benefits as a massive conspiracy against the welfare state.

          What we have seen is a lack of companies wanting to set up in various places around the UK. The government cant do enough to change that so if you want those places to do better you must encourage, incentivise and empower the local population.

          With your solution these places in 100 years will lokk exactly the same. Some hope for the people.

          BTW I keep going on about Liverpool because my mate is a bobby there and he essentially helped shape my views.

          • Simon

            I really have no idea what you’re going on about. Are you saying benefits should be cut to force people into work (that may or may not exist), or to start up businesses (without collateral or capital) , or to save the State some money (at the cost of increased ill health and misery), or all of these ting, or none of these things, or something else altogether? You complain but fail to clarify. Your comments are as confused as they are confusing.

          • John Dore

            You really should have put a full stop after the word idea and gone to bed.

          • Simon

            Well that’s disappointing. Ta-ta.

          • LaurenceB

            If life is so great in the Asian “Tiger Economies” why is nobody from Europe and America emigrating to those countries to live and secure work there? 

          • LaurenceB

            (Sorry. Forget what I just wrote. I’m responding to some sort of convoluted joke aren’t I? Apologies. My mistake.)

          • John Dore

            My point is about how the Tiger economies are creating jobs and you have to come back with that stupid baseless retort? I’ll admit that conditions may not be brilliant at all times but they are growing hugely.

            Stop making a fool of Yourself.

  • Duncan

    There is a clear message that can be put out:

    The welfare bill IS too high.  It is too high because:

    - unemployment is too high: we should renew our commitment to full employment and pursue policies that will provide employment
    - Rents are too high: we should implement rent control and invest in council housing
    - Pay is too low: we should commit to a living wage and raise the minimum wage
    - services are not sufficiently accessible to people with disabilities and schemes like Remploy have been cut: we should commit to reversing this

    We should tackle head on the media and Westminster focus on those who use welfare and shift it to WHY THEY NEED IT.  We should ban that awful phrase “people who do the right thing” and we should make it abundantly clear that a high cost of welfare is due to a failure of policy in other areas.

    The benefit system was never designed to subsidise bad employers and greedy landlords and to exist in place of a full-employment strategy.

    But there is a clear choice and it’s a difficult one, because we are approaching this following decades of under-investment.  It’s significant investment or the status quo.

    • John Dore

      We have had chronic unemployment since the 80′s, Tory and Labour governments have not been able to solve the crisis. If Duncan was PM what policies would he follow to provide employment?

      If Landlords could not get the rents that they needed what would happen to the stock of property to rent? 

      So if its a failure in policy what would you do? You cant just say rent controls, that in itself could destroy the banking systems as it would probably precipitate a collapse in property prices, destroying jobs everywhere and not just in banking. That suggestion in itself is frightening.

      • Losange

        And your solution to the problem is?

      • Duncan

         Rent control isn’t about landlords not getting the rents they needed, it is about there not being exorbitant increases in rents that outstrip wage increases.  But of course, we have for a long time been aware of the problem that people can’t afford housing, and that is why for most of the 20th century we tried to provide various kinds of public housing.  The chronic underinvestment and reduction in this stock is a key area that needs to be dealt with.  Dealing with it will, in turn, create jobs in the construction industry.  Building social housing and renovating/restoring unused housing stock costs money – of course it does – but it also can reduce the unemployment benefit bill and the housing benefit bill.

        What policies would I like to see?  The ones outlined here seem like a pretty good place to start to me:

        http://www.johnmcdonnell.org.uk/2012/05/radical-alternative-to-austerity.html

        • John Dore

          I’ve just read that piece and my conclusions are:

          I am an absolute advocate of social housing. Moreover any new housing we build must be kept as social stock and the legislation altered to say that any new housing constructed as social housing cannot be sold off. I agree that this would drive unemployment down.

          Agree clamp down on tax avoiders. Invest in universal childcare.

          The rest of it is laughable. You can try to take the money off of the rich and you might do it, but the likes of John McDonnell and all his MP chums investing anything and getting a return is a Joke, just look at all the projects over the last 30 years the government have embarked upon and you get the idea, overbudget, waste and poor ROI. All that JM’s ideas would result in is the rich that wanted to pi$$ off abroad going, any foreign firm investing in the UK running off to different countries and EVERYONE being poorer. It ideological but unworkable.

          It is going to be very interesting watching France’s new even more progressive 75%  than Johns ever so progressive 60% tax rate and their yield. 60% my bottom. 60% is not progressive, whats progressive is to maximise what you can get out of the rich. As for a million climate change jobs, where is the substance behind this, anyone can make silly statements.

          • Simon

            Do you like apples? Rent control is VERY common in the United States of America which is as Capitalist as you can get! How’d you like them apples?

          • John Dore

            Great film but your point is not as clear cut as you make it out. In fact a very similar matter of fact tone to James. Rent control exists in the USA and they introduced it for the right reasons to protect the poor and keyworkers in existing rented property. It is not fair to say that it is VERY common, it exists. 

            However the result has been that the supply of decent housing for rent has been limited due to the fact that Landlords are discouraged from making the investment. Moreover 3 states have ended rent controls after referendums. Now what would make the people want to vote for the end of rent control.

            Is rent control right for the UK. I don’t think so and I don’t own any rental property either (I’m kicking myself that I didn’t buy some 15 years ago).

          • Simon

            Without rent controls what is your solution to the housing crises? More social housing? Escalating housing benefit payments year on year as more and more people unable to buy are forced to rent or lease? Trailers, caravans and mobile homes?  Homelessness? What?

          • John Dore

            What part of this paragraph I wrote in this chain 


            I am an absolute advocate of social housing. Moreover any new housing we build must be kept as social stock and the legislation altered to say that any new housing constructed as social housing cannot be sold off. I agree that this would drive unemployment down.”

            Didn’t your know it all wet trousers understand?

          • Simon

            Fair enough.

            You are FOR social housing.

            But are you for or against cutting the housing benefit payments that would still be necessary to enable tenants to accept such tenancies? If Grant Shapps has his way social rents for new tenants could be as much as 80% of comparable market rents which you say you don’t want to be legally controlled? Thus even if millions of units of social housing was built – which it won’t be – the ballooning Housing benefit Bill wouldn’t be significantly reduced because the Coalition want to peg social rents to private rent levels and cuts in Housing Benefit won’t reduce rents it will only impoverish.

            This being the case how can we reduce expenditure on Housing Benefit, which seems to be the bee in everybody’s bonnet these days, without driving its recipients into poverty by making them subsidise their rents from monies allocated to them for living expenses not for accommodation?

          • Losange

            It could be dafter than that since housing benefit is capped at the 30th percentile meaning that in future new council housing might be too expensive for the poor to live in!

            Shapps and crew are  unbelievable idiots.

  • Losange

    If Cameron cuts benefits to people with large families will Catholics get an exemption? After all they’re not supposed to use contraception are they? Or does Cameron expect them to give up sex altogether?

    • John Dore

      There’s other orifices they can use for sex without the female getting pregnant aren’t there. Cut their money to the bone too I say! Bloody oversexed Bible bashers!

      • John Dore

        Can the mod squad please delete the above comment? It wasn’t moi. Probably a member of the AOI.

        • LaurenceB

          I laughed at that.

      • LaurenceB

        I laughed at that. It is supposed to be a joke, right?

        • Simon

          Did you see the one about Liam Byrne and James Purnell described as “visionary”? Laugh? I though my trousers would never dry.

          • John Dore

            As usual confused, your trousers have always been wet and nowt to do with me. 

            You offer no solutions because the only solution is that what despise, more enterprise.

            Ask Miliband if he wants to carry on with the way it is now or to change and you wont like the answer. Funny.

          • Simon

            As a supporter of a better and much improved welfare state based on the Nordic model I suppose you could say at present I’m for the status quo with a view to improving social security delivery in the future. As a revisionist you should be the one to explain what changes, modifications, and tweaks you think should be made to the welfare state in order to make it better, or more affordable, or worse if you like in order to make the United Kingdom more competitive.

            In another comment you mention growing markets in Asian countries as exemplars that we should try to emulate. There are obvious problems with this simplistic idea. For example: How many British people do you think would be willing to live in with subsistence levels of low pay, unendurably long working days, widespread poverty, disease, systemic abuse and exploitation in the workplace? How many British people would be willing to put up with a life similar to that endured by a Chinese factory worker in Hong Kong in order to make their employer more competitive? 

            I’m for what already is and for something better later.

            What are YOU for? 

      • treborc

         yes and you seem to be  one of those orifices mate.

      • John Dore

        Moderator please delete the above, I didn’t write the comment.

    • Paul Tolstrup

      King James version of the Bible:

      “And God blessed them, and God said unto them, ‘Be fruitful, and multiply’…”

      David Cameron version of the Bible:

        “And God blessed them, and God said unto them, ‘Be fruitful, and multiply, unless thou art on benefits’…” 

      * chuckle *

  • Dave Postles

    I thought that I had won the pools, but then I read through below and saw that there were too many Snore Dores.

    • John Dore

      Your AOI buddies may have found that funny, but its school report from me.

      • treborc

        Not funny fact

  • Daniel Speight

    As the great Yosser Hughes would say “Gizza job Kate! I can do that!”

  • Dave Postles

    Give over about welfare dependency when we have the scandal of manipulation of Libor and Euribor.  Which organizations will be the first to renounce sponsorship by Barclays? Any?  Which other banks will be condemned in the course of the review? 

  • Amber Star

    Jobs are often servile & thankless tasks. Hard-work & time-served rarely results in higher rewards or increased job security. It’s sad but unsurprising that people begin to envy those who are not enduring the daily misery of commuting to a sh!t office, retail or service ‘industry’ job. It’s not the welfare that’s the problem – it’s the poor quality of our working lives which causes resentment towards those ‘scroungers’ who are not enduring it.

    Ed Miliband touched on the harshness of the UK job market in his speech about people’s attitudes towards immigrants; it applies equally well to people’s resentment of welfare recipients too.

  • http://twitter.com/mistyblulabour dave stone

    I’m wondering what the work-for-those-who-can  Westminster Bubble Brigade feel about those who visit the job centre and are offered a job including:

     “Duties [that] involve explicit sexual dialogue which may cause embarrassment to some people. Duties require the successful applicant to be nude/semi nude.”*

    Of course, if the job-seeker doesn’t accept they will be refused benefits. 

    *http://www.bridgwatermercury.co.uk/news/bridgwater_news/8169532.Outrage_at_job_centre_nude_webcam_performers_wanted_ad/

    • charles.ward

       Scaremongering bullshit as usual Dave.  There’s no evidence that anyone would be forced to pick between working in the sex trade or losing benefits.

      • AlanGiles

        Leaving aside your love of talking about  excrement, under the  rules taht pertain if somebody refused to take such a job (or any job) there is a very good chance they could have their benefits curtailed.

        there was a similar case in the press a few weeks ago of a man being sent from the Job Centre office to a lap dancing club – not to dance, but to provide “administrative support” – whatever that might be.

        Morally, however, should anybody be placed in the position of being offered work of this sort by an official agency of the government?

        • charles.ward

           How about you come back with actual evidence of someone being denied benefits by refusing to take such a job.  Until then I stick by my description of “scaremongering bullshit” (whether you like it or not) for this kind of comment.

          • treborc

            I should have put that comment above for you..l. it does not matter if people have lost benefits they could.

          • charles.ward

             Luckily you provide the evidence to disprove your own bullshit in the document you reference.

            From the “Current policy and safeguards” section:

            “Adult entertainment industry vacancies are only discussed with people who enquire about them.

            Nobody is obliged to enquire about or apply for adult entertainment industry vacancies and we do not penalise any customer claiming benefits who, after expressing an interest, subsequently refuses the offer of employment.”

            Doh!

          • treborc

            But of course what matters is the law, the law is in place that benefits can be stopped, labour did not reverse the regulations.

            I know you may look like Homer  no need to prove it

          • Dave Postles

             No doubt some poor folk are being compelled to take jobs to clean the offices at Barclays.  Ethical?

          • Bill Lockhart

            What’s wrong with being a cleaner? It may be beneath *you*, but I wholeheartedly admire and support people who go and do such jobs rather than sitting on their arses watching Jeremy Kyle for similar money.

          • Losange

            Nothing wrong with selling books unless you happen to be Muslim and asked to push remaindered copies of Salman Rushdie’s Satanic Verses. Nothing wrong with being a cleaner it’s Barclays bit that’s questionable.

          • Bill Lockhart

            Ah, so you want me to subsidise other people’s self-defined moral and religious purity. Why on Earth should I rather than they bear the financial consequences of their lifestyle choices?

          • Dave Postles

             Why should we subsidize you?  Well, I think that we should, but many will disagree, not least because many orchestral events are sponsored by dubious corporations (i.e. the event provides advertising for a fee for those dubious corporates).

          • Bill Lockhart

            So you believe that a personal choice to stay on benefits doing nothing, contributing nothing, rather than take allegedly “unacceptable” employment is morally as deserving as state subsidy of performing arts? Wow.

          • AlanGiles

            Would you regard working in the sex industry acceptable or unacceptable, Bill?

          • Bill Lockhart

            Since Treborc has already established, albeit inadvertently, that NO benefits claimant is EVER penalised for declining employment in the sex industry, I am unsure what point you seek to make. My answer to your question is ‘acceptable’, by definition, if someone freely enters employment in that industry.

          • Dave Postles

             Personally, I would not wish to subsidize events which are sponsored by BP, Barclays, etc etc.  By the same token, I would not compel someone to clean the offices of Barclays Capital if that person in all conscience regarded the City workers there as immoral, not only for the current fiasco but also for the activities of its subsidiary in Zimbabwe.  People are allowed to have a conscience, IMHO.  If you are prepared to accept the shilling from BP or Barclays, that’s a matter for you, but don’t expect the rest of us to conform to your morality.

          • Bill Lockhart

            And don’t expect the rest of us to subsidise a life of idleness predicated on self-assessed moral superiority. Tell me, does your concern for people’s personal values extend to devout, sincere Christians or Muslims who prefer not to accommodate homosexual couples in their establishments? I’ll wager it doesnt. Only “progressives” deserve their feelings to be respected I guess.
            And if you detest BP or Barclays that much, better give up using the NHS : their taxes and the taxes of their employees substantially help pay for it.

          • Dave Postles

            See above.

          • Losange

            T
            o
            o

            s
            i
            l
            l
            y
            !

          • Losange

            People HAVE to have some latitude in respect to what employer or employers and what kind of work they are going to do. Obviously. Let’s make up a few examples as per people of faith. If Jobseekers had no discretion and had to accept the offer of work from ANY employer Buddhists might be forced to slaughter animals in abattoirs, orthodox Jews could be forced to work on the Shabbat, and Muslims required to to sell alcohol or pork to customers. A couple of  off the cuff secular examples might include an animal lover, e.g., veterinary nurse, forced to work for, say, Huntingdon Life Sciences, to prepare living creatures for experimentation and even vivisection, or a clerical worker forced to work for ATOS, against their will, helping to badger and worry the life out of thousands of innocent sick and disabled people.

            Some people have lines which no civil society should expect them to cross. People shouldn’t be punished for sticking to their principles.

          • Bill Lockhart

            Made-up examples aren’t real: you are creating the same kind of ludicrous scaremongering myth for which the Left continually castigates “Mail”-reading Tories with respect to EU banana curvature and the like. None of the “progressives” here have manages a single real-life example of the kind of fictitious injustices you posit- presumably because they don’t happen.

          • Losange

            Huh?

            I specifically said “make up a few… examples” to indicate that they weren’t real examples but indicators of what, logically, would have to happen to someone somewhere if every unemployed person had to accept any kind of work for any employer.

            Why the rant about curved bananas and suchlike? Are you having a laugh?

          • Bill Lockhart

            I’m laughing at your silly hypotheticals. Leftists excoriate the use of genuine anecdotal evidence in discussions on benefits but here you are presenting fantasy examples as some sort of clinching evidence. Since no-one has suggested that every benefits claimant must accept absolutely any job regardless of their religious beliefs, you are using fictitious evidence to attack your own strawman. I can’t imagine a more pointless exercise.

          • Losange

            N
            U
            T
            C
            A
            S
            E
            !

          • Dave Postles

             Presumptuous and supercilious nonsense.  I’ve worked cleaning deep beer vats with mild acid (copper and stainless steel), sorting returns in the loading bay, cleaning the yeast press, and a variety of other jobs at Greene King; washing the utensils and a  variety of other jobs at Pukka Pies; and so on. 

          • AlanGiles

            Can we assume then Charles, in the unfortunate circumstance of you losing your job, you will be signing on and are perfectly happy to get your kit off to satisfy your obligations towards the DWP and dirty old men/women?

          • Hugh

             If you’ll read below you’ll be relieved to find no such thing can happen. Nobody is obliged to enquire about or apply for adult entertainment industry vacancie.

        • treborc

          http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/adult-entertainment-jobs-consultation.pdf

          Vacancies from within the adult entertainment industry
          6.
          Prior to 2003, Jobcentre Plus did not advertise vacancies from within the adult entertainment industry. As a public employment service, Jobcentre Plus requires many of its customers to be willing to consider the vacancies it advertises and to demonstrate they are actively seeking work. Failure to do so can lead to a loss or reduction in benefit entitlement. Against that backdrop, Jobcentre Plus did not (at that time) consider it right to handle vacancies that could potentially offend or embarrass some customers and that could place them in the position of either being willing to consider such vacancies or put at risk their benefit entitlement. Ann Summers Ltd. subsequently challenged this policy.

      • http://twitter.com/mistyblulabour dave stone

        My concern is the absence of evidence showing that those who, after a period of unemployment, aren’t refused benefits if they don’t accept the opportunity presented by a Notified Vacancy.

        Wasn’t that long ago when it would have been considered unacceptable for youths to  sleep beneath a bridge, without changing or toilet facilities, before being required to work for nothing.

        • charles.ward

           Thank’s to treborc’s link above we now have evidence that no one can lose their benefits because they refuse to work in the sex industry and will not even be asked to do such work unless they express an interest first.

          Care to retract your scaremongering comment or do you just want to change the subject?

          • http://twitter.com/mistyblulabour dave stone

            I never argue against incontrovertible evidence and so retract without resorting to foul language.

            Here’s the relevant passage from Treborc’s link:

            “Nobody is obliged to enquire about or apply for adult entertainment industry vacancies and we do not penalise any customer claiming benefits who, after expressing an interest, subsequently refuses the offer of employment.”

            Thanks Treborc, for your helpful intervention. ; )

          • charles.ward

            You’re a gent Dave and I regret my rather colourful language.

          • treborc

            Thanks

          • http://twitter.com/mistyblulabour dave stone

            Cheers Charles. I’m old enough to know that the truth is much more important than myself!

  • James

    John Dore appears to have no solutions to offer other than final solutions. Forget him.

    • John Dore

      Where in this comments section have you added value? What suggestions have You made?

      What experience can you bring to bear?

      Waiting for the enlightenment.

      • James

        And who are you again? I forget. 

        • John Dore

          The person who has shown you to be the vaccuous windbag that you are. Suggest you read through the comments and see how you come across. My thoughts were shouty playground type.

          No value, no point.

    • Peter Barnard

      “Silly Billy,” James – breaking your own rule ….

      You have made many valid observations, and I enjoyed your comments. If I may add just a couple more :

      The level of non-pension social security payments over the last sixty years or so correlates to a remarkable degree to the level of unemployment and unemployment is now a structural phenomenon. We saw unemployment of about 1% in the 1950s and early 1960s ; since then, it has inexorably risen, so that 5% unemployment now seems to be the best that we can achieve.

      Perhaps, the “full employment” era in the twenty years following the end of the Second World War was an economic aberration? Alan Giles thinks that the era of full employment will not be revisited.

      Evidence for unemployment being a structural problem in the mature western democracies comes via an article (more accurately, a review of a book) by Martin Wolf in the FT on 21 December 2011 : if you Google Martin Wolf sinking great stagnation, you will see the article.

      What is just as chilling is a “small print” statement by OBR in Budget 2010 … “the non-accelerating inflation rate of unemployment is expected to be about 5 1/4% for the foreseeable future.”

      Of course, comments by people like Martin Wolf and small-print statements by the OBR do not find their way onto the front pages of the mass dailies.

      • James

        If you are correct, Peter, and the overall amount of paid work available is declining the only alternatives I can see are:

        (1)  Share out work opportunities more fairly so that more people have periods during which they enjoy gainful employment and some measure of prosperity. I would imagine this would require more part-time and flexible working practices and a change in culture where men and women are willing and able to take sabbaticals .

        (2)  Lower the retirement age – the exact opposite of the current situation – so older workers make way much sooner for younger workers to enable them to secure employment.

        (3) Create properly waged public sector jobs, with the government acting as the employer of last resort, to give people otherwise denied the opportunity of work at least a periodic and temporary  chance to do something useful for their country, acquire useful qualifications, experience, and skills and receive a proper wage for their labours as their just reward.

        (4) Admit that there isn’t and never will be enough work to satisfy demand and at the very least stop lying about and demonsing the poor souls forced to exist on benefits, denied work because of economic and technological changes rather than any fault on their part or shortcomings of their own.

        All of these things would need a sea change in attitudes amongst the general public where those who are favoured and fortunate and lucky enough to do well and prosper in British society do not shirk the responsibility to help other blameless citizens that fate has treated less kindly.

        • Bill Lockhart

          (5) Reform thoroughly the State education system such that it furnishes young people with marketable basic skills and a proper work ethic rather than functioning as a branch of the entertainment/child-minding industries.

          • Peter Barnard

            That will make virtually no difference, Bill L, if the problem is structural.

          • Bill Lockhart

            Perhaps the structural problem is mass unemployability.

        • Peter Barnard

          Thanks, James. To quote from Mr Wolf’s article ….

          (i) we have failed to realise that we are at a technological plateau

          (ii) much the most important cause of sustained economic growth is new ideas. Unfortunately, rates of invention and innovation have slowed … tha late 19C and early 20C produced modern chemicals and so artificial fertilisers ; electricity and so the electric motor, light, refrigerator, vacuum cleaner, air conditioner, radio and TV ; the internal combustion engine and so the automobile ; the aeroplane ; pharmaceuticals ; and, not least, mass production.

          (iii) it is harder and more expensive to innovate today

          By and large, most people in the UK and the mature western democracies are broadly content (leading to J K Galbraith’s “Culture of Contentment,” but that’s another story and saturation point for many material goods (many of which aren’t made in the UK anyway) must be in sight.

          One thing that would be positive for employment (and also “socially just”)would be a reversal of the much-increased inequity of distribution of income that we have seen since 1979 ; wages at the lower end tend to be spent and employment results.

          But you are right – if the author of the book that Martin Wolf was commenting on is correct, a massive sea-change in attitudes will be required and that will be very difficult.

          • Dave Postles

             Ferdinand Mount, The New Few: or a Very British Oligarchy (2012) – even this policy adviser from the 1980s reckons that the problem of inequality is the the core issue.

  • Losange
  • derek

    I wanted to say something but I thought it was better expressed in a song!!!!!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgAoe1o2134&feature=related 

    • Dave Postles

       Good man – always with a song in your heart.  Tara for now.

    • Dave Postles

       On second thoughts, are you alright, man?

  • Dave Postles

    W. Lockhart
    1 Individual conscience, not moral superiority.
    2 If they are in the business of hospitality, then they should not discriminate – it’s the law.
    3 I’ve paid my contributions, so I think that I will continue to take advantage of the NHS, thank you.
    4 I’ll continue to pay my taxes so that the Arts Council can fund your events – not that I could afford to attend them myself, but I enjoy Radio 3.

    • Bill Lockhart

      So do you believe that Christian or Muslim benefits claimants should be allowed to refuse employment in a gay bookshop without their benefits being affected? Just trying to get a feel for how far your sensitivity to others beliefs depends on your agreeing with those beliefs.

      • Losange

        Personally I do think that Christians, Muslims, and anybody else for that matter should be able to refuse to work for a business when that particular business has associations, or carries out activities, incompatible with the religious beliefs,  ethical convictions, and persuasions of  the individual concerned whether they happen to be on benefits or not. The converse is patently untrue, actually and factually against the law, and so of course I do not believe that Christian or Muslim or any other proprietors of businesses, e.g., guest houses, should be allowed to discriminate when it comes to providing goods and services to customers, e.g., refuse accommodation to gay couples because their interpretation of their own religion appears to frown on homosexuality. 

        Why?

        Because discrimination by individuals in respect to potential employers are matters of individual conscience unconfined by the compass of secular law while in the latter case by choosing to open a business that trades in this country you automatically and tacitly agree to obey ALL of the laws of the land in respect to supplying goods and services; this agreement explicitly requires that you offer your such goods and services to all citizens equally without respect to personal attributes as per their race, religion, or sexual persuasion etc.

        The two cases are not remotely similar.

        Stop being so silly.

  • Demian Thorne

    For the sake of the downtrodden and forgotten Liam Byrne MUST go!!!!!

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