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Iain Duncan-Smith and poverty – all you need to know

June 19, 2012 4:35 pm

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IDS on Bob Holman:

“More than anyone else Bob Holman has opened my eyes to the problems and pockets of poverty across the UK”

Bob Holman on IDS:

“My understanding is that to divert blame away from his policy failures he directed it at the poor themselves.”

 

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  • AnotherOldBoy

    Following the links to the various Guardian pieces, it seems that Mr Holman has been misinformed about Mr Duncan Smith’s proposal that the test for poverty should not be solely relative income.

    That it should not be is common sense.

    • treborc1

       If you cannot live in a house, you cannot afford a hotel room or bed and breakfast, you cannot afford to eat, because your benefits has been cut, surely that is poverty.

      If you cannot afford a new jaguar, or a BMW, then sadly that’s not poverty.

      • AnotherOldBoy

        Money is part of the test, but relative income should not be the only test.  AS was pointed out last week on the Telegraph website that approach has some weird consequences:

        (1) If the average income goes up, but the incomes of people lower down the income scale stay still, then the measure that the government is using says that “poverty” has gone up. In contrast, recessions can appear to “reduce” poverty because they reduce the average income, but leave the income of people at the bottom reliant on benefits unchanged.

        (2) Such a definition means there are more people in “poverty” now than in the 1970s despite decades of material progress. In 1977 only half of households had central heating. Now almost everyone does.

        (3) And this definition means there is more “poverty” in Britain than much poorer but more equal countries like Slovakia, Greece and Korea.

        • GKar

          Trying to live on £71.00 Jobseeker’s Allowance in a country where the average income is supposed to be £590.00 per week is a piss poor existence I can tell you. Relatively speaking of course. Do you really believe that nearly every British household has central heating? Saying really silly things like that undermines what is already a very silly argument: millions can barely afford to pay their utility bills these days and nourish themselves adequately.

          I bet Iain Duncan Smith’s next wheeze will be to raise the school leaving age to 65 and by doing so cure the youth unemployment problem as per the next generation with a stroke of his pen!

          Beware of all quiet men.

        • Johnny

          Why bring foreign countries into it? The only thing that matters in respect to British poverty is what happens in Great Britain. Now! Otherwise you might as well compare poverty in modern Britain with poverty in the Middle Ages or whatever.

          • Lembit Opik’s Lovechild

             You demonstrate the point exactly. (And your ignorance). Compare poverty in the Middle Ages to poverty now and it is greatly reduced. Compare poverty now to that 30 years ago and it’s  agin reduced.  Compared to the richest in the kingdom in the Middle Ages then even the poorest in the Uk is infinitely better off in terms of lifespan, health, and virtually every other measure. 

          • Dave Postles

             Few people trust Smith.  Many suspect that his inspiration is to reduce the definition from 60% of the median to 50%.  Many also suspect that his intention to introduce other criteria contains a subtext to stigmatize the poor even further – that behind all his ruminations is a stereotypical, ideological response to poverty and a quest to drive down the costs of welfare.

          • Lembit Opik’s Lovechild

             People on the left don’t trust Smith cos he doesn’t agree with you. Lot of suspicions in your comment. Not a lot of facts to support them

          • Brumanuensis
          • AlanGiles

            You are not Frank Field are you?. Duncan-Twit’s best mate (or at least thats what Frankie thinks – I rather suspect IDS sees him as his bat man “Oh by the by, Field, you might iron my cummerband for the officers ball tonight, and lend us 20 quid there’s a good chap”)

            Frankie hasn’t got many mates – a bit like Smith

          • Johnny

            Of course we don’t trust him. The man is a proven liar. For example IDS lied through his teeth on his own CV.

            http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2002/12_december/19/newsnight_ids_cv.shtml

            Only an idiot like David Cameron would give this liar a job in government.

            Anybody who wants to keep an eye on what IDS and his minions are up to should check out the following blog:

            http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/

            Quite an eye-opener I can tell you.

          • AlanGiles

            Well there’s an election winning formula for you!

            Yes you might be losing your jobs, and paying more each quarter for electricty and gas, having to retire years later than you thought you would, forced to work for Tesco for nothing but under our proposals we guarantee that your lifestyle will be better than it would have been in the Middle Ages. A vote for us means you will never have to live before the 18th century again.

            How could such a pledge fail to enthuse voters of all parties?

            Just think, back in 1957 Harold MacMillan was derided for saying “Lets be frank about it, most of you have never had it so good”

          • Hugh

             Yes – makes about as much sense as telling the poor that the recession is actually making them  better off.

          • Wu Cheng-en

            IDS is a committed Christian… or a Christian who should be committed… who believes that suffering is purgative and good for the soul. So while the poor may suffer the pangs of hell materially speaking in IDS terms they’re clocking up points that might be helpful in the afterlife!

          • Hugh

            Did you just place your comment under mine on a whim or do you see a connection?

          • Wu Cheng-en

            Yes.

          • Hugh

             Easier than constructing an argument, isn’t it?

          • Wu Cheng-en

            No.

          • Johnny

            My point was that it is as pointless comparing poverty in less well developed countries as poverty in the Middle Ages because the levels of poverty in a country depend on what is or has been going on in that country assessed in present because what is considered poverty changes based on the views of society at particular points in time. 

            Of course things are better (at the moment) for many people than in the past or for people abroad. We no longer send children up chimneys to sweep soot for example and although many people are still  malnourished in the United Kingdom it is unusual to see men or women actually starve to death on our streets in the way they did only 100 to 150 years ago a period much less than two human lifetimes.  

            Poverty can only be measured in terms of the society in which it exists – relatively. Otherwise the gap between the rich and the poor will continue to widen remorselessly.

            The poorest people in society now live longer and healthier lives than they did in the Middle Ages or that they would as citizens of Somalia or Sudan. But does that mean that the poor of the UK are not really poor when compared to comfortably off British citizens enjoying an infinitely better life than the people languishing at the bottom of the heap? 

            Food, drink and shelter are essentials but is electricity? Or a television set? Or hot food? Or some form of private transport? 

            With welfare reform, so called, about to begin to bite from the Spring of 2013 onwards even previous essentials like food, drink, and shelter may well become very much more like luxuries in respect to many as thousands begin to become homeless and progressively impoverished.

            Will such unlucky souls be considered to be poor?

            Or poorer than they were?

            Or rich compared to a penniless urchin in Bombay? 

          • treborc1

            sadly it does seem we are heading backwards not forward, thank god I’m almost on my pension, and they can stuff their bloody ESA .

          • http://www.facebook.com/clive.christian.790 Clive Christian

            To claim that poverty has reduced over the last 30 years is erroneous. I grew up on a council estate and was relatively poor. However, 90 percent of people worked and had by comparison to current norms high disposable incomes. Now that same estate is like a ghetto with 90 percent unemployment and a benefit culture that has been created by incompetent governance.. Figures these days are so corrupt that they hardly ever reflect the truth. I know this as I studied Information and Resource Management at University. Unemployment in the UK is far higher than the claimed figure of just over 2.4 million. According to Sheffield Hallam University in 2005 over 7.5 million people were economically inactive. That figure has increased substantially. My empirical experience is that poverty has increased exponentially over the last 30 years.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/QDMFX65KM5STSAFHAC4FOLFTO4 fran

             What happens in Britain stays in Britain – tell that to the rich Britons not the poor ones. It’s the rich ones who seem to have the problem being part of our country and paying their taxes. Do they deserve to be citizens if they don’t contribute to what happens in Britain ?

        • Brumanuensis

          Relative poverty has never been ‘the only test’ of poverty. A broad range of measurements have been used, both prior to and including those contained within the Child Poverty Act 2010.

          Your point about central heating provides an excellent example of why relative poverty is useful. Relative measures track the ability of a household to match social norms, which matters because people have a positional sense of living standards and measure them according to external benchmarks. So in 1977 central heating would not have counted, because it was still relatively uncommon, but today it would signify separation from social norms not to have central heating. Inability to fully participate in society is a form of deprivation.

          On a technical note, point 1 is potentially true, but confuses – a common error – median and average income. Relative poverty is 60% of median income, not average income.

  • Johnny

    What a great wheeze to massage the numbers! Redefine what poverty is by defining and measuring it differently than every previous government to make it look as if the Coalition government is successfully reducing it while preventing comparison of Coalition efforts to reduce poverty with those of every past administration because the statistics are gathered and interpreted differently. I bet the next thing IDS will do is to get rid of future youth unemployment at a stroke by equalising the school leaving age with the retirement age!

    We are, ladies and gentlemen, now in… the twilight zone!

  • AlanGiles

    Something for Duncan-Smith – and Byrne – to think about:

    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/hidden-crisis-long-term-job-seekers-034905649.html

  • Dave Postles
  • AlanGiles

    A few weeks ago one of the Dave’s on LL (I think it was a Dave) posted a link for the Unite petition to save Remploy, which I was happy to sign. I have received this email today:

    “Hi everyone,
    We did it! Yesterday Iain Duncan Smith paid a visit to a Remploy factory in London – and it was your 12,821 emails to him that made him go, so thank you! 
    I spoke to our Unite members at the factory, and they said the minister asked lots of questions, including what the manager would do with four more years of funding. The manager replied that he’d increase the volume of work and increase the number of trainees. We hope the minister saw the huge sense in this response. 
    We’re now hoping that Iain Duncan Smith will agree to our request to extend the period of consultation over the future of the factories – and after that, of course, we hope he’ll decide to keep them open. This means there’s still a long way to go, but it really shows that the time and effort you are taking to support the Remploy workers is making a difference.
    I’ll be in touch soon to let you know what you can do next, but in the meantime, if you haven’t yet added your name to our joint trade union Remploy petition, you can do so here:
     http://uniteforoursociety.org/remploy-petition
    Best, Sally 
    Sally Kosky National Officer Unite the Union”

    • Wu Cheng-en

      I bet my life that James Purnell wouldn’t have responded to a petition in this way. Perhaps IDS is more stupid than wicked and Purnell is more wicked than stupid.

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