You are here: Home » News »

Morally wrong?

June 21, 2012 11:33 pm

Tags:

Media

Share this Article

Your move Dave…

http://profile.yahoo.com/QDMFX65KM5STSAFHAC4FOLFTO4 fran

Hey – who needs complicated legislation when this naming and shaming really seems to work !
Personally I prefer the celebrity targets because a front page line up of middle aged Tory white men just doesn’t have the same va va voom. We expect them to be morally wrong
http://profile.yahoo.com/QDMFX65KM5STSAFHAC4FOLFTO4 fran

Hey – who needs complicated legislation when this naming and shaming really seems to work !
Personally I prefer the celebrity targets because a front page line up of middle aged Tory white men just doesn’t have the same va va voom. We expect them to be morally wrong
JoeDM

Why is it ‘moral’ to pay more tax than you are legally required to?
- Jack Daw
  
  The mythology used to be that when the wealthy were mostly members of the so-called well bred gentry they supposedly believed that, along with rank and privilege, they had the responsibility to try to help those less fortunate. Noblesse oblige and all that. So it was important in a sense to pay more than your way if you were monied in order to show you were “doing you bit” to help the country and help others because you enjoyed good fortune, i.e., you were not a completely selfish egocentric money-grabber out to make all he could for himself with no concern for the nation and its struggling population.
  
  Of course all this happened when rich men were gentlemen.
  
  If you were a gentleman you would not have been so confused.
  - JoeDM
    
    I use an ISA to pay less Income Tax than I would otherwise have to. Is that ‘moral’ or not? I am clearly avoiding paying tax that would otherwise be due.
    - AnotherOldBoy
      
      There may well be a difference between availing oneself of an allowance which is expressly granted by law (payment into a pension fund, ISA, etc.) and hiding your income by assigning it to an offshore company which then “loans” you the same amount back (i.e. what Mr Carr was up to).
      
      There is a grey area in respect of allowances for investments in things like films and IT (both, I think, introduced by Mr Brown) which can – it seems – be abused in that “investments” are not really of the kind intended but fall within the legislation as drafted.
      
      But, personally, I have no difficulty in seeing the difference between investing a modest amount each year in an ISA and “sheltering” your entire income through a series of artificial measures involving offshore companies.
    - Jack Daw
      
      The ISA is a government sponsored scheme to encourage saving. Beside you’re small fry, JoeDM. You really don’t matter at all in the grand scheme of things. What is being talked about here are people, like Jimmy Carr, who use loopholes to deliberately transfer MILLIONS of pounds of money EARNED IN THIS COUNTRY around the globe, in various ways, in order to pay as little as 1% income tax! The money being “laundered” came from the pockets of the British tax paying public. Carr and his ilk are, through legal loopholes, effectively withholding as much as 49% of the income tax that they should be paying from the exchequer in a way no other citizen of this country could do.
      
      Fiddling in other words.
- AlanGiles
  
  Some of us never attempted to avoid paying our taxes, simply because we knew that if we wanted the public services we needed we had to pay for them, and the more you were paid, the more incumbant it was on you to pay. I never regretted this – their need was greater than mine, since I was in well paid and secure work – not many people starting out now will be able to say that with any degree of confidence.
  
  It would be the height of hypocrisy if I had avoided paying tax, at the same time saying that the sick disabled and unemployed should be properly looked after. “left wing loony” “hard leftist” etc etc I may be, but I have always been prepared to put my money where my mouth is. So, luckilly, do the majority of people.
  
  I would assume that Mr Carr, working regularly for Channel 4 is both well paid and right-on, so it does look rather squalid – but quite in tune with the feeling amongst so many in this country these days – especially politicians – that it is not a question of what is right and wrong, but what you can get away with. To his credit, Mr Carr now realises that his actions look shabby and he has done a volte face.
  
  It would be better if Cameron had not played the “morality” card when you think of some of the tax avoiding that goes on in the higher etchelons of his party, not least a certain Lord Ashcroft. I also read that Lord Prescott had made similar points about “morality”. Hmmmm….
  - JoeDM
    
    We should all pay the tax that is due.
    
    But why should we be giving the State a gift of money that is not legally due?
    - treborc1
      
      http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2163090/Tax-avoidance-schemes-Doctors-dentists-face-HMRC-probe.html
      
      This is not the Mirror but it’s interesting to see how many people are avoding and of course evading tax.
AnotherOldBoy

It is not morally wrong to be well off. The Mirror is a dreadful paper. No wonder its circulation falls year on year, while the soaraway Sun flourishes.
- Davrwhu
  
  Cameron used the morality card, why not ask him? Speaking of dreadful papers just how many Sun journalists have been arrested recently, personally I’ve lost count.
  Are you a Murdoch?
- Jack Daw
  
  The issue has nothing to do with being “well off”.
  - charles.ward
    
    The Mirror seems to disagree. Why else would they put the (estimated) net worth of the people in question on the front page rather than the amount of tax they are alleged to have avoided paying? To the Daily Mirror, rich=evil.
- treborc1
  
  Not a pair of T*ts then
JC

I think the lesson here is that if you’re not on PAYE, you’re probably avoiding tax. This might be in small ways like taking dividends instead of salary as Ken Livingstone has done, or going the full Jimmy Carr and actively looking for loopholes (or being wealthy enough to pay someone else to do it for you).

As for foreign owned companies paying tax abroad…
http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZPXYLRVP4XOIGGDJWAL6HUO7U4 David

Hmm I think this is slightly dangerous territory in which to start throwing too many stones given Ken Livingston, the Miliband brother’s (alleged?) tax-free inheritance, etc.

The real point is this: a sensible tax-system need to ensure that the opportunity for tax avoidance is eliminated except and unless a scheme is wholly and solely introduced for a specific purpose (e.g. stamp duty waiving for first time/low-income house buyers).

On that point both Labour and the Conservatives have been equally culpable in creating a system so Byzantine that no-one can fully understand its complexity.
Jeremy_Preece

First off, I would have to say that the tax system in the UK is a total mess. It is so complex that if you try to run a business you have to hire the services of an accountant, just to avoid falling foul of it. Very often there is more than one opinion from HMR+C over what someone owes. In short, it is so complex that often those working for HMR+C can’t totally understand it.

Secondly, not everyone can work on PAYE, as all those who have lost their jobs can attest. Sometimes that only way forward is to go it alone, self employed or limited company. Even if you work this way by choice there is nothing wrong with that at all. I have beeen employed as PAYE, I have been self employed and have run a very small limited company. There are advantages and disadvantages to each.

Thirdly, people generally pay the amount of tax that they need to pay. I certainly have no problem with paying the tax that is due. But when you are presented with all sorts of alternatives, I don’t know anyone who looks to pay more tax.

Fourthly, I think that every citizen has the duty to be honest and pay what is legally due. I have never done offshore banking etc. or tried “scams” but in all cases everyone should act within the law and not to hide anything. Therefore if there are ways of reducing the tax you pay which are felt to be less than moral, then it is up to the government to close the loophole.

Did Jimmy Carr break the law? No. Did Liecster Piggot and Ken Dodd – yes and so they got the consequence. Sounds fair to me.

My biggist gripe over all of this is to hear Jimmy Carr being branded as immoral by David Cameron. It is like having your child care being criticised by King Herod.
How many Tory supporters and backers have very dogy tax arrangements? How can Vodafone get out of billions of corporation tax because of their donations to the Tory party?

What was the story I read about our dear Chancellor spending so much on accountancy in order to get out of thousands in tax?

Cameron’s “moral outrage” seems to be very selective.

Finally, I find myself (unusually) 100% behind our Ed. If there is a tax loophole then the government must close it. After all they say that they are so keen on reducing deficit! It really is unacceptable to hear personal criticism of Jimmy Carr (or anyone else) by the Prime Minister when that person has not actually broken a law.
- AnotherOldBoy
  
  Mr Dodd was acquitted by the jury, I seem to recall. But I think he got a hefty tax bill.
John Dore

The trouble is that its just too political. I’d like to see a huge simplification of the tax system, if you close all the loopholes then the tax take goes up and its fairer for us on PAYE.

Latest

News Seats and Selections
Vicky Foxcroft selected as Labour’s PPC for Lewisham Deptford

Vicky Foxcroft has been selected by Lewisham Deptford CLP as the party’s candidate for 2015 at a selection meeting this afternoon. Here’s a brief biography: Vicky grew up in the North West in a single parent household, and was the first person in her family to go to university. She has held many positions in the party including Chair of Labour Students, has sat on the National Policy Forum and is currently a local councillor and is Chair of Lewisham [...]
Read more →
Comment
Labour’s future schools policy: why accountability matters

By Mike Ion

Stephen Twigg, Labour’s Shadow Education Secretary is one of the more thoughtful and pragmatic individuals to hold this vitally important brief for some time. To his credit Stephen has been out and about these past two years listening to pupils, teachers, parents and governors and finding out more about the challenges they face on a day-to-day basis. In addition Stephen has been looking closely at some local, regional, national and international programmes that have had a demonstrable impact in raising [...]
Read more →
News Seats and Selections
Falkirk selection process suspended by the party

The Labour Party have this afternoon suspended the selection process for Falkirk, after concerns were raised about “membership recruitment”. We understand that Ed Miliband was “keen to act swiftly” as the selection process was due to formally begin on Sunday. An officer of the party – yet to be confirmed – will investigate. A Labour spokesperson told us this afternoon: “We have suspended the start of the selection process of the Falkirk parliamentary seat. Concerns have been raised about membership [...]
Read more →
Comment Seats and Selections Unions
Working Class MPs – the end of a era?

By Paul Wheeler

It is interesting to see that the Labour Party is returning to the vexed issue of its parliamentary selection process. The changes may be well and good. But maybe we should be asking a bigger question – are we witnessing the end of working class representation in Parliament? When the Labour Party was first founded it was more simple. Then the explicit aim was to secure working class representation, and specifically organised labour, in Parliament. Inevitably it became more complicated [...]
Read more →
Local Government News
An absolutely classic Lib Dem bar chart

Earlier this week we brought you a decidedly dodgy bar chart from the Tories, but it seems that they’re not the only party in Camden adopting dubious use of bar charts. Step forward Camden Lib Dems, with this classic of the dodgy Lib Dem bar chart genre (courtesy of Theo Blackwell). Even by the pretty shoddy standards of the yellows, this is a corker: Update: Haringey Lib Dems might want to work on their bar charts maths too (via [...]
Read more →