Fisking the case against Lords reform

July 10, 2012 5:54 pm

If Labour has a sense of triumphalism or schadenfreude at the withdrawal of the programme motion on the House of Lords Reform Bill it is misplaced. Yet again, parliamentary manoeuvring is jeopardising the curtailing and limitation of the principle of appointment without election in Parliament. Labour has effectively joined forces with those who wish to reject election for representatives of the upper house. A shame – more so because the arguments these conservatives are deploying are so weak. I’m not going to go into detail on the arguments for change when Kevin Meagher, Mark Ferguson and Alan Johnson have done so very effectively elsewhere. The proposal is actually quite basic in principle: to move from an appointed-hereditary house to largely elected one with a fifth appointed. That’s it – that’s the choice.

For Labour, you’d think this was a no brainer – the people’s party would go for election over appointment. For others, you’d think the proposals involved swapping the Queen for an armadillo given some of the melodramatic reaction in the House of Commons yesterday. The most amusing thing about the debate so far has been the way in which opponents have unwittingly argued the case against the current House of Lords rather more than the alternative! Here are just a few examples:

“The proposed fifteen year term is too long.”

That may well be so and I have some sympathy with this line. But if fifteen years is too long then why is an unlimited term as is currently the case not? Not a good start for status-quoists.

“The new elected peers won’t have to seek re-election so this will damage accountability.”

Again, I have some sympathy with this argument. I would prefer a shorter term with re-election. But from opponents of reform, this argument is beyond parody. How often do the current crop of appointees, inheritors to title and bishops have to seek re-election? Try ‘never’ as an answer and you’ll be pretty close. The bogus arguments continue.

“The proposed electoral system – a regional open party list – encourages cronyism.”

*cough* *splutter* – What on earth is the current House of Lords appointments system about? Now, I don’t want to get personal by naming names and identifying political patronage and reward for financial contribution but cronyism is in the main an argument against the status quo not change. For what it’s worth, it would make sense for the parties to give some guidance on how they would select their candidates for 2015. Hopefully, it will recognise the genuinely contribution – as legislators – of the best Lords in the present arrangement.

There are a series of other arguments that are, in the main, equally weak but aren’t quite so damaging to the current arrangement – they don’t back-fire to the same degree.

“It will shift balance balance between the two houses.”

This is demonstrably false when it comes to formal powers. The Parliament Acts of 1911 and 1949 enshrine the primacy of the House of Commons most explicitly on ‘money’ legislation but also on general legislation. There is no reason at all why this should alter just because the House of Lords is elected. There are many different arrangements of functions and powers with primacy for one house protected in other systems. The Japanese Diet is just one example. The upper house is elected but subordinate. Actually, their arrangement is rather similar to our own in terms of balance of power and function.

On informal powers – ie conventions – it is a slightly more grey area. The key convention is the Salisbury Convention which essentially assures passage of legislation that was contained within a Government’s manifesto. It’s not a law and so it can change – under the current arrangement as well as would be the case with a democratic chamber. Perhaps all three parties should commit to the convention as a principle in their manifestos if they are so concerned about it and perhaps all appointees should be made to commit to it too other than on issues of conscience. There, that would be a stronger convention than currently exists.

“People aren’t interested in it. There are other priorities”

This is an utterly bizarre set of objections. If this test was applied to all legislation that goes through Parliament, we’d probably only pass 20% of what is currently passes. Yes, there are other priorities but there is time for this as well in the legislative programme.

“It costs too much.”

The overall reform package of a reduced House of Commons and the net changes to the House of Lords is cost-neutral. Each election will cost £87.5 million – £17.5million on an annual basis. If you don’t believe in the elected principle then you probably think this is too much. If you do, then you think it’s probably worth the cost.

“The BNP will get in”

Well, we could design our entire political system through fear of the extreme right or we could campaign, organise and confront them whilst designing a good democratic system. The BNP can be stopped as these elections will take place at the same time as the General Election so turnout will be higher diluting their vote. Any election is prone to people voting a way that you don’t like. That’s the way it works and the trick is to dissuade them from doing so.

“if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”

What exactly would constitute ‘broke’? The argument for change is about preferring democratically elected and accountable legislators to be making, scrutinising and deciding upon legislation to a (mostly) appointed or hereditary upper chamber. If the test is ‘legislation passed by democratically elected representatives’ then the current Lords is broke.

“Reform not change.”

We’ll take the ‘reformers’ at their word and suppose that this argument is not just a smokescreen to show that you are not anti the notion of reform and instead are pragmatically rejecting it based on careful consideration of evidence. I’m feeling generous though a few are genuine in this argument. But then it comes back to the basic issue: a democratically elected house or an appointed one. That is the choice.

“The House of Lords is a fundamental part of our nationhood and tradition.”

Perhaps but that didn’t stop us removing all but 92 hereditary peers in 1999. You will still have a second chamber with the same powers but it will be 80% elected rather than appointed or hereditary. Tradition evolves and introducing the elected principle in one such evolution.

So arguments against reform are largely bad, contradictory and misleading. The proposed reform is not ideal but then no reform would be. Should there be a referendum? Perhaps but there is a problem with these referendums in that there is a bias in favour of the status quo; practical beats the theoretical and real beats the imagined. If Labour has any sense it would level things up – support the reforms now with a commitment to a confirmatory referendum down the line. That way people can compare the old and the new on an equal footing – in the 2020 General Election, say – that is more democratic too.

This debate has become smoke and mirrors. At the end of the day it’s quite simple. Do you want legislation to be passed by people who you elect or do want appointees to do it instead? I’ll go for election over patronage any day. Others may have a different view – let them argue it rather than playing a game of deflect and distort.  

  • AnotherOldBoy

    What about some of these arguments against:

    1. Despite the removal of most of the hereditary peers the present House of Lords does a splendid job.  The Clegg version would be full of failed candidates for the Commons and pretty useless.

    2. It would give the LibDems the balance of power in the Lords and, as Mr Painter notes, they might not accept the Salisbury convention.

    3. There are more important things for our government (and opposition) to be doing.

    • http://twitter.com/CJWallace91 Chris Wallace

      1. That depends on what you count as ‘a splendid job’. And more to the point, still doesn’t get around the fact that these Lords are not elected. Call me old fashioned, but I prefer representatives of the people to be chosen by the people.

      2. Read the post before commenting. (“Any election is prone to people voting a way that you don’t like.”)

      3. Read the post before commenting. (“Yes, there are other priorities but there is time for this as well in the legislative programme.”)

      • Davrwhu

        I’m sorry but I’ve come into this a bit late. Is this a case of any reform is better than none at all? We should have a debate about how we want government to evolve in this country. Even in this crumb of comfort
        to make Clegg look like he is able to extract his head from Cameron’s nether region occasionally, there will be 90 unelected members. The Lib Dems won’t hold the balance these will.  Just a contiunation of the current cronyism.  I want change but I want it to start from a bigger picture that moves our whole system of government into the 21st century. Not just with the HoL but the HoC, local democracy, the voting system, the split between the executive, judiciary and the legislature, how we pay for democracy, a written constitution. I just feel that this is tinkering by Cameron and Clegg, and will achieve  little of the radical change a forward looking democracy should be embracing.

        • Alan Giles

          With all due respect, just how many more debates should there be?. This topic has been debated for donkies  years and surely the time has come for action now?

          • Hugh

            Was the conclusion of that debate that we should let political parties select candidates from a list and give them a 15 year tenure? I must have missed that.

        • robertcp

          Yes, it is a case of deciding if you prefer an elected second chamber to an appointed/heriditary second chamber.  I prefer democracy, so hope that these imperfect proposals get through.

    • robertcp

      An elected second chamber might not be a good idea for the Lib Dems if you look at the opinion polls.  Regarding the Salisbury Convention, it was more important when the House of Lords had a Tory majority.  No party has a majority at the moment, so I suspect that the Lib Dems often have the balance of power.  Won’t the 20% of appointees have the balance of power under these proposals?

  • Anthony T

    Some good points. Do you think there should be a referendum?

    • Anthony Painter

      A confirmatory referendum to coincide with a general election would be fine and democratic.

      • Vicky Seddon

         There should be a referendum if the people want one,  rather than politicians deciding whether to have one. There was no referendum when Blair got rid of the majority of hereditaries. But if, say , 5% of voters call for one, then we should have one. Let the people decide!

  • franwhi

    The incumbent political elite always use these deflect and distort arguments to filibuster out anything democratic. Yes each argument is bogus and we know that they know its bogus but what else can the elite argue when they support the anachronistic status quo (often out of self-interest but that’s the last thing they’ll admit to)  So we had all the bogus arguments against the AV voting system then against more powers for Scotland and now against more democracy for the Lords. Even if there were a referendum the elite would stitch it up – and they wonder why people don’t participate in the political process. Or maybe they don’t wonder because they know there’s a democratic deficit in the UK and prefer to keep it that way.  When you see their antics in the House you despair of how far short they all fall – unprincipled and unprofessional.    

  • Brumanuensis

    The continuing presence of bishops particularly dismays me.

    Incidentally, apologies for not getting back to you on the thread beneath your review of Sandel’s latest book. I had to go away for a few days and by the time I got back, I thought it wasn’t worth returning to the matter due to the lapse of time.

    • Anthony Painter

      No worries. Thank you for the comments anyway.

  • Peter Barnard

    If the second chamber has no “real” power but is just there to scrutinise legislation proposed by the HoC, do we really need a second chamber at all?

    Can’t scrutiny be done by specialist committees, sitting in public and issuing public reports, drawn from the “real world?”

    • treborc

      But would that not be the same, how do you get a committee who would select it.

  • John Ruddy

    Just because we support House of Lords reform does not mean we should vote for ANY sort of reform, regardless of how half-baked it is.
    We will only get one chance at reforming the upper house – we need to get it RIGHT.

    • robertcp

      The issue on any reform is not whether it is perfection.  It is whether it is better than the status quo.  If it is, support it.  If not, oppose it. 

      • Anthony Painter

        Exactly. The choice is between two systems. Which do you prefer- appointed or elected? Rather simple issue really.

        • treborc

           I agree with you we would all wanted it elected, but listening to it tonight it looks dead in the water.

          • JC

            I think there are many who do not want to see an elected HoL  because of the reliance on party lists and the consequences that will bring. 

            The questions that are rarely asked are “What sort of person do we want to sit in a revised HoL?” and “What is the best way to ensure we get them?”. If a purely elected solution is the answer to the second question, then the answer to the first will be failed politicians, party hacks and donors and the odd celeb with political aspirations. We would lose our independent cross-benchers and any experience of life outside politics. There would be no opportunity for any representatives of the people.

            To those who argue that we currently have a HoL of this composition, then I would say “Why change if we already have it”? We could simply limit their term to 10 years.

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Homfray/510980099 Mike Homfray

          Neither. Unicameral parliament and proper devolved regional assemblies

    • Vicky Seddon

       No, I don’t agree. This is a recipe for no change.

      Women’s suffrage didn’t arrive all at the same time, but once the principle of some women having the vote was decided, it fairly soon became inevitable that all women would get the vote.

  • https://mikestallard.virtualgallery.com/ Mike Stallard

    What a sham!
    We, the voters, will be allowed to choose a lot of second raters from party lists and, if we are good, we will get an assembly just like the one Mrs Clegg and Mr Clegg too are used to in Brussels.
    That way the LibDems – who are neither Liberals nor are they Democratic – will be in coalition for ever!

  • aracataca

    You forgot one Anthony. The members of the second chamber would, under this Bill, be elected by PR -a system that was (unfortunately) decisively rejected for the Commons in a referendum last year. Of course Labour MPs did not oppose the Bill itself they just wanted sufficient time to be allowed for a proper scrutiny of the more contentious parts of the Bill to take place, like 15 year terms, the party list system, PR, etc. It’s time for people to get a broader perspective on what Labour MPs have done today. The Fib Dems wanted to railroad this Bill through Parliament because it benefited er….them.

    • Anthony Painter

      PR wasn’t rejected. AV was- which is not an PR system.

      • aracataca

        A more proportional system of voting (AV) was put before the British people in a referendum and they rejected it. I may not like it but that’s democracy. Why let the Fibs pass a proportional system of voting for a Second Chamber through Parliament without proper debate or scrutiny? Let’s do Lords Reform but let’s do it properly.

        • Anthony Painter

          AV is not ‘more proportional’. It’s a majoritarian system like first past the post.

          The House of Lords currently has no majority for any party – just like PR.

          • JC

            It may or may not be “more proportional”. The public don’t care. It was presented to them as a proportional system and was rejected. Of course, you may claim that the campaign was wrong and badly thought out, which it may have been, but that’s no argument to change the people.

  • Geraint

    My fear with the bill is, after the needed reform, it will be left as it is. The current bill is bad, and does not introduce real democracy into the upper house. The terms should be much shorter with a decent electoral system and politicans able to restand for election. It also should be 100% elected. It also needs to recongise the realities of devolution, and give each nation of the UK equal representation.  

    We need serious democratic reform of the upper house, not another mess by head poodle Nick Clegg.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Homfray/510980099 Mike Homfray

    Its not our role to rescue the governments legislative programme. Let them argue about it.

  • Amber Star

    This is Labour’s chance to have real influence on shaping the reformed Lords. 91 Tory rebels! Now Labour know the number of potential rebels, we know how much clout we have. Voting for the bill & against the timetable was a stroke of political genius. Does anybody know who came up with this strategy?

  • Daniel Speight

    Does Lords reform have to translate as more jobs for the boys? Is it just to provide employment for retired (either voluntary or enforced) MPs and apparatchiks and bag carriers that may be getting a bit long in the tooth? Come up with something that doesn’t include party lists and you may be able to generate a bit enthusiasm in the public, something that Lloyd George managed all those years ago.

  • Daniel Speight

    Does Lords reform have to translate as more jobs for the boys? Is it just to provide employment for retired (either voluntary or enforced) MPs and apparatchiks and bag carriers that may be getting a bit long in the tooth? Come up with something that doesn’t include party lists and you may be able to generate a bit enthusiasm in the public, something that Lloyd George managed all those years ago.

  • jonathanmorse

    Can’t we have a nationally elected main chamber (i.e. by PR) with a revising chamber elected the way we elect the House of Commons. Why is it radical to reform just the second house left to us by undemocratic forces hundreds of years ago? To my mind we’d be better off scrapping the Lords or keeping them only for State Openings.

  • ThePurpleBooker

    I am sorry Anthony but this is rubbish and for your benefit you should take down this post. It is nonsense. You clearly do not value accountability, you do not value the primacy of the House of Commons and you do not value expertise. You just want any odd reform not necessarily good reform. You are a fool for backing the Lib Dems’ party political and stupid House of Lords Reform Bill. Let’s have our own alternative House of Lords Reform Bill which commits to a REFERENDUM.

  • Holly

    If this had all gone wrong, and the coalition crumbled, there would have been an election…
    With a good possibility of a Labour win.
    That would be fantastic yeah?…
    No it wouldn’t! It would be a disaster! Miliband & Balls would then either have to ‘test the markets’, and do what they have been saying they would do, if in power, borrow more/cut less/reverse other stuff like VAT. Or they would have to follow Osborne’s plan for the next few years.
    Call me cynical, but Labour have no intention of doing anything that could jeopardise their current position….Carping from the sidelines about everything.

    If the economy is in a similar shape as it is today don’t hold your breath for anything plausible coming from the top of Labour in 2015 either, they are quite happy to wait until 2020 to come over all sensible….Too late if things are better.

    If I am wrong why didn’t they bring down the Coalition yesterday….You would think that  their sole aim would be to get back in to government.
    They are constantly telling us how good their plans are, and what the economy/country needs to get growth/jobs etc so why did they fail to do what they keep telling us they want?
    Personally I think Labour could have won. 
    The Tories & Lib Dems would be either spouting at what they had each done as separate parties, or would be slating each other about what they couldn’t get done, because the other wouldn’t let them.
    Labour could have concentrated on what they would actually be doing, while the other two carped at each other.
    Oh dear. Never mind eh.

  • Holly

    If this had all gone wrong, and the coalition crumbled, there would have been an election…
    With a good possibility of a Labour win.
    That would be fantastic yeah?…
    No it wouldn’t! It would be a disaster! Miliband & Balls would then either have to ‘test the markets’, and do what they have been saying they would do, if in power, borrow more/cut less/reverse other stuff like VAT. Or they would have to follow Osborne’s plan for the next few years.
    Call me cynical, but Labour have no intention of doing anything that could jeopardise their current position….Carping from the sidelines about everything.

    If the economy is in a similar shape as it is today don’t hold your breath for anything plausible coming from the top of Labour in 2015 either, they are quite happy to wait until 2020 to come over all sensible….Too late if things are better.

    If I am wrong why didn’t they bring down the Coalition yesterday….You would think that  their sole aim would be to get back in to government.
    They are constantly telling us how good their plans are, and what the economy/country needs to get growth/jobs etc so why did they fail to do what they keep telling us they want?
    Personally I think Labour could have won. 
    The Tories & Lib Dems would be either spouting at what they had each done as separate parties, or would be slating each other about what they couldn’t get done, because the other wouldn’t let them.
    Labour could have concentrated on what they would actually be doing, while the other two carped at each other.
    Oh dear. Never mind eh.

    • Alan Giles

      I can’t see the next election – whether it comes this year, or 2015 will result in a clear-cut win for any party – another hung parliament seems the most likely outcome. We have the right wing of the Conservative party getting salty with Cameron and his modernisers, equally, rather more subtly, you have the right wing (Progressive) wing of Labour trying to be ever more influential, and of course a section of the LibDems are very unhappy with Clegg.

      It’s like a political version of the Mutinity On the Bounty, and frankly, I don’t see that any party has a Fletcher  Christain standing by.

      All three parties are offering the same unimaginative managerial policies, all of them are disliked by sections of their party (I plead guilty myself, I am getting frustrated and bored by the perfectly decent Ed Miliband’s refusal to really say and stand up for what he believes in. It is timidity and timidity is the last thing we need). My biggest worry is that if Ed did win, or be the leader of the party with the most number of seats in a hung parliament that the remaining Blairites might well stage a coup, so vote Ed get David (Miliband), to me is a great worry – especially as we all know Blair intends to “re-engage” would like to be PM again and frequently grooms the 2010 intake.

  • Hugh

    I’m sure someone must have pointed this out to you, but just because the current system is bad doesn’t mean that we should reform it with a system that has almost as many faults. Do you really think if this goes through it is reasonable to expect another reform a few years down the line? Why, then, is it not better to wait and introduce a decent bill? To suggest it is now or never for Lords reform strikes me as far more disingenuous than anything those against the proposals have come up with.

    Furthermore, the idea of reforming the Lords effectively to keep the Lib Dems happy and without putting it to a referendum is appalling.  You might argue it’s making it more democratic (although given the party list system I rather doubt that), but it’s not in their bloody gift. The constitution is there to restrain the powers of these guys; I don’t really want them getting the idea that they can change  it when convenient.

    As you say, the trick with any election is to persuade them, so I’m unsure why this shouldn’t apply to persuading them the new proposals are preferable to the status quo. And, since, the “confirmatory referendum” you have in mind would require a Labour government, why not just wait for that happy occurrence, introduce a bill that has a reasonable prospect of  public  support  (that, I suspect, would mean dropping the party list for a start), and then asking them. Of course, you may still find them “biased” in favour of the status quo, but that could  just be because they disagree.

    • Brumanuensis

      “The constitution is there to restrain the powers of these guys; I don’t really want them getting the idea that they can change  it when convenient”.

      The constitution doesn’t really have a purpose, seeing as it’s a rather ad hoc affair; nor is it particularly strong on restraining the power of the government, given that the ‘Crown in Parliament’ – the source of the executive’s power and Parliament’s supremacy – is neither democratic nor especially circumscribed by either statute or convention.

      • Brumanuensis

        Further, the whole feature of the British constitution is that as it is uncodified it can be changed when convenient – see Dicey’s observation about no Parliament binding another.

    • Peter Barnard

      Ah, the “Constitution.”

      Do let me know, Hugh, when you find a copy … 
       
       

  • Vicky Seddon

    Excellent piece

  • jaime taurosangastre candelas

    What would be wrong with having a 2nd House of only the independent experts, all appointed by a process of consultation between the Parties, and specifically requiring them to not affiliate to any party and to operate as independents?  It is the experts who give the HoL any credibility it currently has – all of the ex-Ministers and party list vote-fodder peers draw the House of Lords into a poor reputation.

    Appoint them for 10 years, limit their powers to revising and suggesting, and find a fair way for Ministers, Shadow Ministers, and academia and industry and social organisations to nominate experts for consideration.  That should not be too hard.  Pay them for their time and expertise and expenses (properly controlled).

    I would rather have 350 experts covering all aspects of national life and no professional politicians at all in the Upper House than what we currently have.  They would be the conscience of informed opinion, technocratic, non-partisan, and would maintain a democratic link between law-makers (political), and an intelligent approach to law management (apolitical).

    • derek

      A sensible suggestion but I fear the real problem is with the power based HoC.A second chamber of experts from all fields could really be a blaze trailers but would the HoC listen and would they implement any of their suggestions?Seems to me that parliamentarians don’t give a donald duck if they’d portrayed with warts and all, they continue to be misguided by a misguided period and until they accept that sovereignty isn’t in the distinguished corridors of Westminster but is in every corner and every inch of the land and it’s peoples, then I’m afraid that parliament will continue to be a place where only 650 people believe it has a true worth.

  • Eugenetgrant

    A good piece, Anthony. And nice to see someone finally dealing with the myths of Lords Reform. I’ve written a couple of pieces on the issue and you’re the first I’ve seen to deal with some of the misconceptions head on. But, still I’m not convinced of the need for a reformed chamber or – before you say it – any upper chamber. Why? Before you say “because they are a force to make the Govt. revise and reconsider legislation” look at both the NHS bill and the Welfare Reform Act and think again. Especially regarding the latter, the lords had *minimal* effect. 

    So, I ask, why reform the House of Lords? Why not abolish it completely? http://wp.me/p1ZHol-1y

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