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LabourList readers don’t want Blair or Brown back

July 5, 2012 2:53 pm

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Mark Ferguson

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Despite his re-engagement with British politics, LabourList reader wouldn’t take Tony Blair back as PM – and the same goes for Gordon Brown. 60% of those who voted in our June State of the Party survey said that they wouldn’t take Blair back, with the figure rising to 70% for Gordon Brown.

38% would have Blair back, whilst just 24% would like to see Gordon Brown return as PM.

Whilst LabourList readers might not be hankering for a return from former Prime Ministers, they are certainly happier than they once were with the current Labour leader. 60% believe that Ed is doing an Excellent or Good job as leader, with just 15% believing that his performance has been Poor or Very Poor. Unlike ConHome, we’re still asking how you think our leader is doing…

Elsewhere, there’s backing for Lords Reform – but not neccessarily for Nick Clegg’s bill. 67% of you want Labour to reform the upper house, but less than half of that number believe that Labour should back Clegg’s poposals – with the majority of reformers wanting to see amendments to the bill and/or a referendum.

The survey also returned to something LabourList has paid a great deal of interest to – internal party democracy. 50% of you think that the party isn’t serious about internal democracy, compared to just 22% of you who disagree. Ed Miliband and General Secretary Iain McNicol still have some way to go to convince people, it seems.

And finally – 17% of you said that you would dodge tax if you could. But 73% of you said that you wouldn’t. Quite right…

855 people voted in our June State of the Party survey. Thanks to everyone who took part – keep an eye out tomorrow for the latest shadow cabinet rankings.

PaulHalsall

One of the main benefits of PAYE is that it is more or less painless.

In the US, where everybody has to fill out a 1040 form, it is far from painless. It drives reasonable people mad about tax.

When I lived there, as an academic I could deduct the cost of academic books, which I did. This was not tax dodging: I had piles and piles of carefully organised receipts for books. But as I lived in NYC for 12 years, and rented, I could not (fair enough) deduct rent. It used to drive me crazy that people on more or less the same income, and who spent on mortgages as much as I spent on rent, could deduct mortgage interest relief.This March madness, which is universal in the US, is what makes Americans object to paying tax more than anything else. The US personal return system each April is more or less designed to make people feel taxation and to see the inequities.

It is of the utmost importance to Labour politics that PAYE be maintained as the main income tax collection system in the UK.
Simondent01827

I voted in the state of the party for not taking blair orvbrown back the main reason for this was during there time in goverment it was fractious where brown camp and blair campran goverment this slowed down policy making and getting things done. We have with ed miliband a fresh new leader who has united the labour party,one who can lead us united all aiming for the same outcomes that is why i back ed but refuse to take back our past leaders. On house of lords reform i completely agree we must have a housebthat is representitive of all walks of life that is fully transparent to the public but can bring with it knowledge and an independant mind not just one aligned to political parties.
- john p Reid
  
  Blair inherited A united party, and His view when those tired to oust him duing his frst terms was If you think you can be more sucsesfull ‘oust me’ of course no one did, e won A second landslide wihout Livingstone in the party or backing him, and Scargill and co had left, My problem with blair was that h may have thought that the left were’nt worth arguing with, but now the left are in charge he thinks those who followed him in the past are prepared to give him another chance, where was he when brown was bankrupting us, Where was he when Livingstone was backing Lufhur for Tower hamlets, where was he when Jack dromey won a All women short list,
  
  regarding ed miliband has united the party, E’ds silence on he ousting of Dan hodges or Progress magazine or Luke boziers exit, is deafening,
  - Brumanuensis
    
    I don’t think Hodges has been expelled yet.
    - Alan Giles
      
      I can only assume that it is only because they don’t want to embarrass his mum that they have’nt!
      - john p Reid
        
        she’s retiring anyway
      - Alan Giles
        
        Then there is no reason to delay, is there?. He plainly doesn’t support the party and is ever anxious to announce the fact to readers of the Daily Telegraph.
        
        I would have thought by now he would have sought his remedies by joining another party
      - john p Reid
        
        Didn’t Ken livingstone write a column in the Sun in 1991, When the Sun was still very pro tory, and Livingstoen backed Lufthur rahfman,So lets get id of Ken then
      - Alan Giles
        
        A rather childish and ignorant statement. if you will allow me to say so.
        
        Ken Livingstone has now retired, after his defeat in May.
        
        (Why don’t you do the same thing?)
      - Alan Giles
        
        A rather childish and ignorant statement. if you will allow me to say so.
        
        Ken Livingstone has now retired, after his defeat in May.
        
        (Why don’t you do the same thing?)
      - Alan Giles
        
        A rather childish and ignorant statement. if you will allow me to say so.
        
        Ken Livingstone has now retired, after his defeat in May.
        
        (Why don’t you do the same thing?)
      - John Dore
        
        I object. The nasty man returns with hyperbole. Ken has not retired at all he just stood for the NEC, either you got your facts wrong or are happy to lie.
        
        The analgy to Ken is perfectly reasonable.
      - Alan Giles
        
        What I meant was (“nasty” man that I am – at least I don’t keep using the word “cr*p” at every person I disagree with) is that KL is unlikely ever to become an MP or Mayor again, and I doubt that he will have much influence (if any) on the NEC.
        
        In 1991, the time Mr Reid was complaining about, KL WAS an MP and we can hardly retrospectively censor him for actions he took 21 years ago. Mr Reid is fond of history, and loses no opportunity to castigate people he regards as “left wing” (including Harold Wilson) even though they might have been inactive or dead for many years. Yet he fails to notice the jiggery-pokery that goes on in 2012 in the party – provided those miscreants are right wing.
      - John Dore
        
        You are a nasty man pure and simple.
      - Alan Giles
        
        If you say so. Run along now.
      - Proctologist
        
        Just bend over and take it.
Rbmdeco

It’s no surprise that so few of us want Gordon Brown back. He was a fine Chancellor, but when it became apparent that nobody was going to oppose his coronation as Party Leader most of us found our hearts sinking – we knew that he was all wrong for the job of Prime Minister and would lead the Party into defeat – and so it inevitably proved.
- derek Lancaster
  
  A fine chancellor. He was a disaster, he doubled the tax paperwork, taxed us to death, destroyed private sector workers pentions, set up the FSA, which we now know is incompetent, spent or billions on pointless schemes that showed little or no fruition. And to top it off he sold all our gold for toilet paper. (sorry I mean Euros). I’d say all our current financial problem boil down to 50% bankers, 20% us being greedy spending money we didn’t have and 30% on that man. He should be arrested.
  - Brumanuensis
    
    If he taxed you to death, how are you posting on Labour List?
    
    Zombie Tories! None of us are safe!
    - treborc
      
      Lot of it going around.
      
      What can I say about brown, for me it has to be tax and child credits it lifted a lot of people from the poverty line.
      - derek Lancaster
        
        Tax credits. Great idea. He taxes you an extra £500 a year, employs people to give you back £300 a year. And you thank him for it. Madness.
      - John Dore
        
        Never understood them. Can you elaborate?
      - Brumanuensis
        
        DirectGov has a good guide.
      - treborc
        
        lets see two grand kids living with me £4,700 a year, it’s not 400 or 500 is it.
    - derek Lancaster
      
      “Taxed us to death”, was figure of speech dumb ass. Notice you didn’t disagree with my other points about the great man.
      - Brumanuensis
        
        Well one of them is empirically false, ‘he sold all our gold for toilet paper. (sorry I mean Euros)’.
        
        First, he didn’t sell ‘all our gold’, he sold 395 tonnes. The BoE currently holds 310.3 tonnes.
        
        Secondly, the proceeds weren’t all invested in Euros, but in a basket of currencies, including US dollars, Yen, etc.
        
        As for, ‘taxed us to death’, the overall personal tax burden has scarcely changed as a percentage over the past 30 years and Brown cut taxes, as well as raising them. Besides, your assessment is subjective and unverifiable – unless you know someone who did drop dead upon receiving their tax bill.
        
        If by ‘spent or billions on pointless schemes that showed little or no fruition’, you mean PFI or that fire-fighters control centre plan, fair enough. I suspect you don’t.
        
        Finally, he did not destroy private sector pensions, as the abolition of ACT had been mooted for almost a decade prior to him doing so and a more likely explanation is the contribution holidies taken by the pensions funds, as well as the bursting of the dot-com bubble in 2000/2001.
      - Brumanuensis
        
        *holidays
      - postageincluded
        
        Holidies or holidays it was Thatcher legislation, I believe, that pushed pension schemes into taking them.
Dawoodvf

If 60% of Labour voters think Ed Miliband is “doing a good job”, does this mean they like scapegoating migrant workers by blaming them for the housing crisis and unemployment.
I seem to remember a strong leader from the 1930′s had a similar idea. What was his name?
- Brumanuensis
  
  Does ‘Godwin’s Law’ extend to cover references to Oswald Moseley?
  - treborc
    
    I thought it was Hitler same thing really
    - Brumanuensis
      
      Meh, I was being facetious. He probably meant Hitler though, you’re right.
      - treborc
        
        ” facetious” I suffer from that as well you can get a laxative for it
      - Brumanuensis
        
        It’s a long standing problem of mine, alas.
      - treborc
        
        same here
http://www.facebook.com/matthew.blott Matthew Blott

I’m probably going to invite the wrath of my comrades here but I am guilty of past tax avoidance. I think it is wrong that I was allowed to get away with it but I can’t help feeling the very low 17 per cent figure is because Labour party members are generally poorer than their Conservative counterparts and haven’t had the opportunity of tax avoidance presented to them.
- Brumanuensis
  
  BURN HIM
  - treborc
    
    I suspect everyone who has been self employed has tried it, an extra receipt here or their, no I swear not me.
- http://twitter.com/mistyblulabour dave stone
  
  The 17% are probably those who have been in business. When it comes to health it is wise to follow medical advice and when in comes to business only a fool would ignore accountants.
  
  You put yourself at a significant disadvantage if you don’t submit the various expenses etc while competitors do.
- John Dore
  
  My brother restored his house last year, he paid on average tradesmen 140 a day. Nobody gave him a receipt and nobody wanted a cheque. He and I are PAYE and we concluded that this wasn’t a bad practice as its not a lot of money when you think there is no sick pay, they have to pay for the tools and vans etc., there is no garuantee of work every day and they’re not on benefits.
  
  All a part of life’s rich tapestry.
  - treborc
    
    Well if your brother uses cowboys then he’s no better then those who work for cash in hand.
Matthewotooleis

BLAIR AND BROWN: BRING ‘EM BOTH BACK!!!

I’d have them both back if they were going to toe the line.
I grew up in a one bedroom flat in London with two parents who were often out of work, I cried when we lost in 1992, and my father thought he would never live to see another Labour victory. Without these two men that may have remained the case, and anyone who thinks that the 1997 election was a foregone conclusion is living in cloud-cuckoo-land. If we never win power its all just a game, but for the most vulnerable people people in society its not a game and is brutally real. Though Brown and Blair were both middle-class they understood this and they also realised that without extending our support and winning power the voice of these people would never be heard. There was a lot of cynicism that needed to be overcome in order to win victory, and in many ways the Labour government was a victim of its own success in creating a feeling of optimism before winning power.They are two of the most brilliant men that the party has ever had, and when they were working together they were unstoppable- which is why the Tory establishment was so intent on splitting them. They were both cursed by the deal they made and they knew it- but they made that deal in what they thought were the best interests of the party-remember we are not particularly known for our unity! All politicians make mistakes and we elect them to make the mistakes we can’t handle making.I know we lived in a much more cynical, negative, demoralised, intollerent country before they took over- not everything can be measured in Pounds and Percentages.
- treborc
  
  But of course they did not want to work together, they had done deals, and to be honest if you think Blair was real labour that your view.
- Leeden
  
  You are letting nostalgia get in the way. Jut because Tony was a good Primeminister all those years ago don’t mean to say he would be any good now. Things are very different than they were when he was around and besides I don’t think people would have the patience for him and Gordon arguing all over again and I don’t think many people would trust Tony not to start looking round to start another war because he seems to be happy doing that
  - Matthewotooleis
    
    You are probably right of course, they had their time, and would no doubt cause problems for Ed- not least because the media would hang on their every word and try to present any disagreement as a cavernous split.
    People need to remember that the first task was to pull this country back from the right, and re-build the infra-structure which had been allowed to fall apart for nearly twenty years.
    I remember Heseltine, a very rich man in his own right, on Question Time trying to scare everyone that the minimum wage would cost a million jobs- it created a million. The minimum wage is taken for granted now; but just like everything worth a damn it had to be won, it would never be granted.
    The Labour party must constantly evolve and change in order to ensure that our values can still be seen as relevent to a changing society-Same values different day. e.g. Where once the trade unions membership was around 80% of the workforce its now about 30%, so how could the unions be anywhere near as representative of the views of the country as they once were?
    As a party (not a government) we should have done more to continue a dialogue with the electorate after elections. People voted Labour, but I’m not sure how many became Labour. The party should have paid for big bill-boards outside new hospital wings with slogans like “brought to you by the Labour Party….”. People just didn’t make a direct connection with the improvements in the country and the fact that it might be due to having a different party in power!!!
    Ok I revise my position we don’t necessarily need to bring them back, but do we have to criticise them all the time? They had their day, they made mistakes, they did a lot of good work- lets learn from the mistakes and build on the good work. Its easy to make no mistakes- just don’t do anything!!!!!
    - Alan Giles
      
      “People need to remember that the first task was to pull this country back from the right,”
      
      You always associate surrealism with the visual arts: it is a bit odd to encounter it in print. This is priceless. Matthew – Blair was the most right-wing leader Labour ever had, the most right wing where warmongering was concerned and arguably more right wing than John Major.
      
      One of the greatest problems Ed Miliband has is to take the party ever so slightly to the centre again before we even think of looking left again. In the meantime Blair and his ultras made the decimation of the NHS and the welfare state that more achievable for Cameron and his pals.
      - Rbmdeco
        
        I thought Matthew’s post was rather good – although I’m not sure about the billboards outside hospitals – I assume that was tongue in cheek. But what he meant was of course that the Party had to be pulled back from the extreme right of the previous Tory government, and Blair was able to lead us int0 adopting changes which made that possible. Until his terrible mistake of following Bush into the Iraq War the government he led achieved some remarkable things, to name but a few: the minimum wage, Scottish and Welsh devolution, the Northern Ireland peace process, Bank of England independence, sexual equality and gay rights reform, chucking most of the hereditary peers out of the Lords, the intervention in Sudan, abolition of foxhunting…. and so on. He stayed on too long (a mistake many successful leaders make) with the result that we all got irritated by his mannerisms, but I expect he knew, like most Party members, what a disaster for the Party Gordon Brown would be as Prime Minister, so he delayed the hand-over as long as possible.
      - Rbmdeco
        
        I meant to say “… pull the country back” not the Party – sorry!
      - Alan Giles
        
        One problem Miliband will have is that Blair told the press last week he would like to be P.M. again – and there are still enough headbangers in the PLP to fan the flames (naming no names). If I were E.M. I would say thanks but no thanks to the idea of a second coming.
        
        As you rightly say he stayed around too long and his re-engagement with domestic politics could only harm Labour.
      - Matthewotooleis
        
        You are right, he WAS the most right-wing leader the party ever had, and consequently the most successful (let you into a little secret- this is a right-wing country, we invented capitalism).
        The last time the electorate of this country were offered a so-called ‘left-wing’ (protectionist state capitalist) manifesto was in 1983 (if i need to explain the significance of that election read some books).
        I was being (slightly) tongue in cheek about the billboards, but we need to be less embarrassed about the great achievements we make and indulge in a (little) less self-flagellation.
      - Alan Giles
        
        “Most successful”?. No more so than Harold Wilson, who actually saved this country from getting involved in an unwinnable war (Vietnam in 1968) yet at the same time managed to keep on good terms with the USA.
        
        Blair’s last few years were a disaster for the country and a disaster for the party, aand I can hardly believe people are so short sighted they would welcome him back to cause more damage and dissent.
      - Matthewotooleis
        
        Wilson was became Prime Minister when a consensus had already been created in British politic. He also avoided most of the difficult decisions required to modernise both the party and the country for fear of losing personal popularity.
      - Matthewotooleis
        
        lol sorry about the spelling!
http://twitter.com/rocket3david David Edward Hughes

I find it ironic that the killer of the trades unions has been the Labour party, the party`s refusal to remove privitization/best value from UK politics says it all,they are all tories as was Blair and the UK needs a step change in party/politics,none of the top 3 parties are acceptable,as a trades unionist,I do`nt want my subs going to Labour a party that wants to put me on the dole,are you listening Prentis !.
- Matthewotooleis
  
  The unions once represented about 80% of the workforce, and now around 30%, so How could they be equally as representative as they were? Why should they wield as much power as they did then? The unions could give their money to who ever they liked but I’d say they wouldn’t get much back from the Tories or the Libs, and which other party is ever going to win power? Life is a compromise.
  - treborc
    
    And pray tell me what do we get back from labour, Miliband has just said he will look at the laws put in place by Thatcher, about time.
    
    If you people do not know the relationship between Union and the labour party, I shall not bother explaining it
- john p Reid
  
  All trade unionists have the option to opt out of their union money going to laobur, like teh PCS, do,

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