What do you actually want the second chamber to do?

July 4, 2012 10:32 am

Usually, Lords reform is only talked about in government when there really is nothing better to talk about, it’s like a lull in the executive conversation, the legislative alternative to talking about the weather.

Well, that’s hardly the case at the moment, nonetheless, this is the price you pay for dealing with people who see elections as a goal rather than a means, raison d’être to exist in itself. An odd bunch the Lib Dems, but hey ho, each to their own.

As the grown-ups now have to turn away from the stuff that matters, we may as well talk about it seriously. Let’s start with Clegg’s plan. Democracy is of course a good idea and the House of Lords is one of the leading anachronisms in a country full of them.

However, I fail to see how electing someone for 15 years, once, is democracy. How on earth can we throw these people out once we realise we have elected a bunch of turnips who think £45k for 15 years is the summit of their ambition? If we’re going to do this, we should aim our sights slightly higher than having a bunch of middle-management valued, failed or below average politicians clogging up hallowed space for an era. The class of 1997 would now be coming to the end of their terms, the new dawn only just setting on them, a chilling thought even for most ardent Blairite.

But, as any politics postgraduate who has debated this in seminars will have been asked by their lecturer, what do you want the second chamber to do? As usual, Clegg has gone around this arse about face, seeing democracy as the driver, rather than what function we want to see.

An amending chamber, sure; a check and balance, obviously; a touch of localism, why not; representative of the country, yes please; representatives of the country, hmm, not for me, but hell. I’d also like a level of expertise, from the Lord who is an expert on bee’s health and has been warning us for years, to all the other niche interests our current Lords have.

My way would be having a German Bundesrat style body, where local government sends representatives. It would mean no new layer of political class, and would tick many of (my own) criteria. It would also solve many of the problems about primacy of the Commons, as well as introducing an element of democracy. Throw in a 100 nominated ‘Lords’ and maybe a handful of annually selected experts dependent on the legislative program and I think it’s a neat little solution.

However, I’m sure there are holes in it, and if we are going to discuss this we must understand there is no perfect answer. Every proposal will have its weaknesses. But let’s not do what we have done for a hundred years, a stand up or down vote on the proportion of elected peers. Let’s not get consumed with the democracy element, and think about what we want it to do.

We could have a jury style grand annual selection, 300 random people. We could have a 100 seat senate, purely as a revising chamber, we could have a whole host of options.

The Lords really does need to change, but first, can we have a actual debate, some thought perhaps. Because at the moment, all we have is political posturing and tactics, people worried about their future, their Party’s best interest. Isn’t that just so typical of MPs, I wish they could be more like the Lords sometimes.

  • Jc Morris

    You make some important points particularily about the shallowness of Clegg’s thinking on extending the democratic writ.I would move a bit further and ask what is the Commons for? As I understand Germany has a powerful devolved level of government as does France and Spain to manage and legislate on important local/provincial affairs. With few exceptions Parliament is very jealous in protecting it’s intrests and power – a cross party attitude that should be part of the debate you propose.
    Trashing elites may be good sport and sometimes necessary but the institutions themselves seem hardly capable of managing the status quo and are dragged into seeking short term solutions that throw up further crises down the line. In this sense the praised elasticity of the UK costitution becomes a major obstacle.  

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZPXYLRVP4XOIGGDJWAL6HUO7U4 David

    Part of the problem in defining an appropriate replacement for the current HoL relates to the problem around defining what is actually wrong with it.

    So it contains people we didn’t vote for: ok, that’s clearly not ideal, but then my local council is also full of employees who don’t get (or need to be) voted for: are we going to suggest that the council planning office now have to be elected?  It seems to me you hit the nail on the head when you suggest democracy is the means to the end (the end being good laws), not an end in itself.

    “An amending chamber, sure; a check and balance, obviously; a touch of localism, why not; representative of the country, yes please; representatives of the country, hmm, not for me, but hell. I’d also like a level of expertise, from the Lord who is an expert on bee’s health and has been warning us for years, to all the other niche interests our current Lords have.”

    Are there concerns around any of these points at present?  It seems to me that most of these points are covered with the exception of being “representative”, whatever that means (i.e. do we really expect a normal distribution of class, gender, ethnicity, intelligence, height, weight, left-handedness, ginger-hair-edness, etc. just because people are standing for election?)

    Until we’ve identified what we want to change and improve, it seems to me that we are going through a process to keep the status quo, but achieve it in a different way: that is not a road which will obviously lead to success…

    • robertcp

      David, it is the councillors that are elected in local authorities.  The staff are the equivalent of civil servants for central government.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZPXYLRVP4XOIGGDJWAL6HUO7U4 David

        Precisely: so why should an army of legal reviewers be treated differently?

        • Robertcp

          I do not feel strongly about it but the revising chamber should be mostly elected.  Appointing them in proportion to votes at the last General Election would also be acceptable to me.

  • DanMcCurry

    The 15 year term is ridiculous. Where else on this planet do people get jobs that are guaranteed tp last 15 years. Can you imagine people winning elections then going fishing for the next 14 years, knowing they can’t be gotton rid of? 

  • robertcp

    We have been debating the House of Lords for more than 100 years.  This government has put forward proposals and we need to decide whether to support them or not.  I could live with the current arrangement but, on balance, I think that the second chamber should be elected (a single chamber elected by PR might be better but that is another issue).   

    It is obvious to me that the purpose of a second chamber is to revise legislation passed by the House of Commons.  An elected second chamber would probably make more changes and the House of Commons would probably use the Parliament Act more often.  Neither outcome would bother me very much. 

    Lastly, the thought of being on 45 grand for 15 years would be quite appealing to many people.   James, are you a Tory MP or a banker?

  • Brumanuensis

    A second chamber – I favour 100% election – should:

    -Revise – but not introduce – legislation

    -Scrutinise and confirm public appointments

    -Approve public honours

    -Mediate between the different branches of the State, e.g. the devolved assemblies

    -Provide long-term strategic contributions to major policy areas

    -Have the power to commission public inquiries, independently of the executive or House of Commons.

  • Tonypbjarrett

    One chamber should deal principally with the kinds of things we’d want those in prison to have a say in, the other with such as we’d like to exclude them from. This isn’t just a pratical basis for demarkation, but a useful way of approaching dividing politics up.
    .
    The primacy of one or the other is a snare. We need better accountability and fifteen year terms are ludicrous.
    .
    One chamber should be elected by thirds in three years out of every four, and the basis should relate to social/economic/geog divisions: some constituencies would be cities, counties, and everyone should have a vote for a national constituency to replace compulsory bishops – a religious/humanist/philosopher’s section.

  • hp

    I agree with what the 2nd chamber should do.
    We also need to think about what it should not do.
    I think it should not be another arena for party politics to act in its own interest rather than in the country’s interest.
    We should somehow ensure that the Lords are not under instruction from political parties.

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