Keir Hardie and the realist’s dilemma

August 15, 2012 5:00 pm

156 years ago today James Keir Hardie was born into grinding poverty in a one-bedroom cottage in North Lanarkshire.

It was a hard life. Labour’s original founding father was first sent to work as a message runner for a shipping company at age seven. By the time he was ten he was working as a trapper in the coal mines.

A series of mining jobs followed as Hardie dragged himself up by his bootstraps to become an inspirational trade union leader. He taught himself to read and write, the Labour historian Kenneth Morgan points out, by ‘scratching out the characters on a blackened slate with the wire used by miners to adjust the wicks of their lamps.’

What would Hardie, the famed orator and idealist, make of the party he did to so much to form 106 years ago?

Yesterday Walthamstow MP Stella Creasy became the latest voice to grapple with the realist’s dilemma of how Labour must respond to governing in a time of straitened public finances. She argues that all spending must pass a clear value for money test and Labour should go into the next general election with a “zero budget” with every area of spending up for review.

In his own way, Hardie was a realist too. He eschewed the revolutionary fervour of the time to pursue the road to parliamentary socialism. It was – and remains – hard-travelled, with its share of setbacks and wrong turns. What Hardie would recognise though is that realism always needs a clear abiding purpose. This, then, is the realist’s dilemma and there are two fundamental problems that it presents.

The first is that it is impossible to galvanise centre-left opinion – and working people in particular – behind vague promises of being a bit nicer than the other lot. The Liberals tried that in Hardie’s day. The prospect of change has to be real and spelled out. Political organising and shifting public opinion remain as hard today as they were then. At its root there is a need to inspire a shared sense of mission, of destination; whether that’s the ‘New Jerusalem’ of the party’s founding fathers or even the ‘New Britain’ of Tony Blair.

Yes to realism and yes, too, to prudence; but what is Labour’s animating purpose if ameliorating the worst excesses of the free market through social spending is out of bounds, as Creasy seems to suggest? To use a very un-Hardie phrase, what does Labour’s ‘brand’ stand for then?

The second problem is that a lack of clear intent – or even just a reticence in articulating the party’s spending priorities – offers little clarity to the government machine. Any senior civil servant will say that they prefer their political masters – of whatever hue – to have a fixed idea of what they want to achieve. Endless reviews and policy trimming are inimical to good government. Socialism, RH Tawney said, needs a ‘hard cutting edge’.

Hardie’s death in 1915 at the age of 59 robbed Labour of its ‘Moses’ according to his eventual successor Ramsay McDonald. The comparison is apt. Hardie never rose to ministerial office as McDonald later would. His was a mission or raising consciousness among working people that change was needed – and possible. The working class became a risen people in large part thanks to Hardie.

His early death spared him the later sight of McDonald’s rudderless Labour governments of 1924 and 1929-31, which are best-remembered as warnings to future generations about bending to the myopic economic orthodoxies of the day.

The challenge for Labour politicians today, as it was in Hardie’s time, is to present a clear alternative and the promise of real change. Offering reviews and neutrality about spending priorities is not the way to do that.

  • http://www.futureeconomics.org Diarmid Weir

    ‘The challenge for Labour politicians today…is to present a clear alternative and the promise of real change. Offering reviews and neutrality about spending priorities is not the way to do that.’

    Quite so. I sense there is the beginning of a consensus around the idea that there needs to be more and more effective communication between politicians and people, between firms, consumers and workers, and between public service providers and recipients. I’ve referred to this idea as ‘Equality of Voice’. We need to develop policies to create the structures that will achieve this.

    • https://mikestallard.virtualgallery.com/ Mike Stallard

      No we don’t.
      “We” know absolutely nothing about how to run even a whelk stall on the market. So what right have “We” to run the economy or indeed anything else for that matter?

  • derek

    Labour’s problem is, it’s shed a load of weight and every pair of trousers are extremely baggy. I’d take a poke at Hardie saying’ get a pair of braces and try and eat the joints with a bit more meat on them. 

    • treborc

       Time change parties change I doubt Keir Hardie would even be a politician today, if he was it would not be in Labour.

      • derek

        True! but people still needs homes, jobs, education, health care and transport and those are the guiding principles that will always remain.

        • treborc

          Well those principles did not do to well under Labour did they.

          • derek

            No they didn’t as private home ownership rocketed under new labour as did private education, private health care and private transport but we did improve public sector jobs.I guess my point was that labour should always try and be the labour party of Keir Hardie, the peoples party that represents the peoples needs. 

          • jaime taurosangastre candelas

            …private home ownership rocketed under new labour as did private education, private health care and private transport but we did improve public sector jobs”

            Perhaps the people actually want their own homes, cars, and the choice of education if the state provides a poor solution.  Even healthcare?  Is that such a terrible thing to contemplate?

            I’m not sure what “improving” public sector jobs means.  I hope you are not suggesting that more of them are necessarily better than less of them?

          • derek

            But the state didn’t provide an absolute poor solution as thousands were forced to take their children out of private education because of the 2008 crash and seek the better state schools to place their children in?

            Of course, more jobs are always better than no jobs unless your completely think and regard high unemployment as a necessary means?

          • treborc

            Doctors  no wonder the NHS is in trouble.

          • derek

            This one is troublesome! LoL!  

          • derek

            Hmmm! they spent trillions on nuclear weapons (as of your dates) then spend billions more trying to reach agreement to disarm them? CND wasn’t a wicked thought, unless you think nuclear arms are a clever thing to have?

          • jaime taurosangastre candelas

            Derek, 

            sometimes I really struggle to connect anything that I (or others that you respond to) say and what you come back with and say.

            But really, what is the link in this case?  I’m very happy to say it is my myopia to not see it immediately, but please help me out here.

          • derek

            ?.

          • jaime taurosangastre candelas

            Well,  you mention some things that increased under New Labour (home ownership, etc).  I have a view that those things are not necessarily bad for people, even if they appear to go against some of Labour’s early principles.  You then come back and talk about nuclear weapons.

            Are you able to understand that I can’t follow your logic?  I’m not saying there is no logic to your views, just that I don’t spot a link between one thing and another.

          • derek

            ??……Oooooosh!

          • PeterBarnard

            Derek,

            Labour was never against owner-occupied homes. In the 1960s, under Harold Wilson, there were more owner-occupied homes built than in any comparable period before or since.

            Of course, in those years, Labour also ensured that council houses were built as well so that the demand on housing remained stable.

          • derek

            Yep! so we’ve a by nature private loving government,looking to end council homes altogether so they can float another private enterprise that’ll crash and burn like the rest.

            Round my neck of the woods in the 1970′s only doctors and lawyers owned their own home, now it’s a wide spread thing but I’d take a poke at saying it’s a very big thing waiting to explode in these austerity times.  

          • derek

            @Peter, I like a bit of realism.Today my wife and I took a trip down the east coast, Dunbar to be precise, we were visiting some friends on holiday, a caravan park, static caravans and log type hut’s. On a little walk around the site, we seen some static caravans up for sale and what I would describe as an extra large hut up for sale, two bedrooms, one living room and a kitchen plus a bathroom, I kid you not, the asking price was£169,000 GBP! jeez I thought, that’s is just plain crazy, I could build a replica for about £5,000 at tops.  

          • jaime taurosangastre candelas

            Derek,

            the price reflects the dream some people have.  See this one:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-18505748

            A beach hut is not a house so cannot be valued like one.  For some people, it is worth it.

            For the price you quote though and that of the one in Dorset, you can have a very nice 4-seasons “chalet” built on a Canadian lakeshore, surrounded by 14 acres of your own woods.

          • PeterBarnard

            The price also reflects the disastrous mixture of the British love affair with property and a restricted supply of land to build it on.

            It started in 1972.

          • jaime taurosangastre candelas

            Peter, you are right and what I say below does not detract from that.

            But…..  there are 70 million of us, it is part of the British (or English?  unsure) pysche of “every man has his castle”, and we do not live on a very big island.

            Given these three factors, is it surprising that houses are expensive in the UK, we all want our own one, and when we have got it, we do not want a large block of flats to be built in the way of our woodland view and will complain to the council if that is proposed?

          • derek

            However back in the real world, people are renting out their garden sheds for £500 GBP per week. Companies like G4S are telling employees to slip under bridges and landlords are upping the prices of rent drastically. 

          • Alan Giles

             Jaime, columns too small to respond Please look above.

          • Alan Giles

             I never had a prob.lem with home ownership myself. Thanks to more or less full employment by the mid 60s and good wages, it was good that blue collar workers could buy a home of their own. And good luck to them. As they adv anced their buying their own home at that time ensured that another deserving family got the council house they moved on from.

            I don’t know if you agree, but what I found unacceptable was allowing council tenants to buy council stock at bargain basement prices and then were allowed to sell them within a very short period of time. I could understand why Mrs. Thatcher did it, but I couldn’t understand why she was so stupid that she didn’t realise public housing would always be needed for the less well-off and ensure at least a fair proportion of stock sold was not replaced with some new. That Blair with two landslide majorities didn’t correct the imbalance was yet another of his unforgiveable (in)actions.

            I know they say with old age comes anecdotage, but I well remember a couple of friends and acquaintenances insisting on buying their council homes  “because we love it so much” (“I was born in it!” one of them told me with a lump in his throat), but this love was very short-lived since they had moved out and on within a couple of years. The lump in the throat became a lump in the wallet.  At the very leasT I feel that if a tenant wanted to move on they should have had to sell the house back to the council – arguably at a modest profit to reflect any work they may have done on it.

          • PeterBarnard

            You are right that it was good that blue collar workers could buy their own home, Alan. I knew a good few shuttering carpenters and steel-fixers when I was working on motorway bridge construction in that period who did exactly that.

            You are also right about Thatch and the knock-down prices. If Labour had done that, we’d have been accused of electoral bribery, big-time …

  • Alan Giles

    What would Keir-Hardy make of Labour today?

    Not a lot.

    Seriously, I don’t think Mr Atlee or Harold would recognize the post 1994 party. I don’t think they would have approved of it’s desire to be a lighter shade of blue. Said more in sorrow than anger…..

    • jaime taurosangastre candelas

      Alan,

      look at your (probably very correct) view of these great men’s opinions of the state of the Labour Party today, not from a perspective of what they think of some artificial construct of a political party, but from the perspective of outcomes for individuals.  Of course, there are still injustices and things to be done, but the working man or woman of Britain has never had such support, such opportunity, their children will have greater things than they have.  

      Whether or not the Labour Party exists, or whether there is a need for it (I would say so, but it is not automatic), the people of Britain today live an enormously enhanced quality of life than the people of Britain did in their respective eras.  

      The great experiment worked, and wonderfully well.

      But life has changed, immeasurably, and maybe it is time to update the vehicle that achieved this, against much opposition? Maybe it is time to think that the focus should not be so much on destroying great evils, which do not really exist any more in Britain.

      • Alan Giles

         I take your point Jaime – up to a point. Obviously the levels of poverty seen in Keir-Hardy’s time are, we hope, gone for ever, but it is worth remembering that during the Blair years the gap between the very richest in society and the very poorest actually increased.

        I cannot speak with great authority on K-H or CA, but we do know that Harold was not prepared to commit our young servicemen to an unwinnable war merely to ingratiate himself with the American President. He was able to say no to Lyndon Johnson, at the same time retaining friendly relations with Washington. Harold Wilson also believed in cabinet government, not sofa government, and in consensus. I am sure he would never have “adjusted” the party to become like a replica of the Conservative party, as Blair and Brown did.

        The biggest problem for Labour, frankly is that on far too many issues they are adopting an “us, too” attitude (most notably on welfare policy). Those policies which were started by Brown and continued by Cameron are not working, were not working, and will not work. Ed Miliband needs to make a firm committment to stop the harrassing of the disabled, and he can only do this by appointing a more credible shadow minister than the current incumbant, who merely wants to fiddle (possibly) with the current unacceptable policies.

        • Amber Star

          He was able to say no to Lyndon Johnson, at the same time retaining friendly relations with Washington.
          ——————-
          Outwardly friendly, perhaps; but wasn’t Wilson hounded out of office by pressure from the US & UK security services who were convinced that Wilson’s unwillingness to join the war was because he was a communist & secretly working with the USSR?

          • aracataca

            But hang on a second -it’s not just a question of these issues. The postwar Social Democratic  consensus was breaking down during Wilson’s term of office -most notably in the 1970s as western economies grappled with seemingly insoluble problems of stagflation where the living standards of the working class slid irrevocably downwards. Wages did not keep pace with the inflation generated by an overextension (both in terms of time and scope) of Keynesian economics. By the 1970s people had enough of the basic things of life and began to seek more scope for choice. Isn’t that the real reason why Wilson/Callaghan lost and it took Labour 15 years to come to terms with these factors?
            Paradoxically it is now clear that an unregulated free market economy has produced a different but equally disastrous set of economic consequences (with decades of zero growth a real possibility) and what we need now is Keynes Mark 2.

          • http://www.futureeconomics.org Diarmid Weir

             ’…what we need now is Keynes Mark 2.’
            Yes please! See http://www.futureeconomics.org/2012/07/keynes-is-all-we-need

          • Alan Giles

             You are probably right – I remember a certain half-baked bigwig in the press (Hugh Cudlip?) having such fantasies and toying with the idea of having Lord Mountbatten leading a “special” emergency government. But then we have idiots in the press today who have daubed Ed Miliband “Red Ed”. The press loves hyperbole.

            But the point is, Amber, Harold stuck to his guns, whatever personal  abuse he may have received from retired Major General Humphrey Boreham-Stiff. I remember the late George Wigg -a labour “big-wig” (pardon the pun) of the time, being quite offended on a radio interview that “we” hadn’t joined in in Vietnam (a couple of years later Wigg’s career came to a hairy end when (1973?) he was arrested and charged with curb crawling (I always remember his defence, one of the funniest I have ever heard. Having been caught at 2 a.m. in a seedy part of the West End – “I was looking for a Daily Express” !) It was too much like the old Mae West joke*.

            As somebody in his prime (such as it was) in 1968 and would have been a prime target for being conscripted, I have remained grateful all my life that HW did have that strength of character to say no and mean it. I seriously often wonder what Blair would have done had he not been 15 in 1968 and instead was PM). I think we can probably guess.

            Actually I honestly don’t believe it was the spooks of the US/UK security services that made him resign so suddenly in 1976 – I suspect the reasons may have laid closer to home, but as two other people involved are still alive, and one of them is highly litigous let sleeping dogs lie.

            *The Mae West story: she was staying in a London hotel in the 1930s when she saw a newspaper boy with his stock in the foyer. She sidled up to him and said “Say, sonny – if thats the Daily Mail you’ve got there, send me up a dozen”. Apocriphal no doubt!

    • PeterBarnard

      Indeed, Alan G (“not a lot”).

      He would have been horrified that an increase in the Gini coefficient could occur under a Labour government. He would have been even more horrified that a Labour Chancellor could make a speech to assembled City folk, praising them to the high heavens for their “massive contribution to the common wealth,” (something along those lines, anyway).

      He would have been pleased at the increase in health care (total output up 77% between 1997 and 2009) and he would have been pleased at the reduction in child poverty that occurred under Labour.

      He would have been horrified by Labour’s easy acceptance of a “flexible labour market.”
      Casual labour, anyone?

      Of course, a century on, and times are very different. However, it would have sat very uneasily with him that Labour 1997-2010 so readily accepted the re-established “conventional wisdom” economics and the idea that “the right have won the argument.”

      • jaime taurosangastre candelas

        Peter,

        what’s that 77% rise in health care output statistic?  What is it measuring?  Life expectancy?  Numbers of nights in wards?  Money in / out?  Amount of aspirin recommended to 60 year olds by GPs trying to reduce heart disease?

        • PeterBarnard

          Jaime,

          See “Public Sector Output, Inputs and Productivity : Healthcare” (ONS), page 3.

          Perhaps, page 7 may be better (I hadn’t read that far when I made the comment):

          Output quantity index in 1997 : 104.0
          ———  ditto ——–  in 2009 : 170.8 ( = plus 64% ; still pretty impressive).

          I did not choose the timeframe for “convenience” ; those are years in the ONS publication.

          • jaime taurosangastre candelas

            Thank you Peter for pointing out the source (ONS), but I have to say I am none the wiser.  I suspect that the 4 authors of the report – all statisticians – also do not know what they are measuring or why.

            Productivity fell 2.7 per cent from 1995 to 2009, an average annual fall of 0.2 per cent. This is because over that period: 
            The volume of inputs grew by 88.8 per cent, an annual average increase of 4.6 per cent 
            The volume of output grew by 83.8 per cent, an annual average increase of 4.4 per cent 

            That tells you very little, other than that the NHS was having too much money thrown at it to effectively cope with.  “Productivity” is not defined, and any measures are only obliquely noted.  For example, a component of these data is the fact that there was an 8.6% increase in the volume of drugs prescribed.  What does that mean?  More illnesses cured?  A looser prescribing policy?  More money available for prescribing?  Cheaper drugs not being rationed?  Better data capture?  No one knows, but the fact that 8.6% more drugs were prescribed is taken as “a good thing” and added to the credit column.

            The smallest component in the overall increase in “productivity” was the 0.9% increase in post-operative survival rates and primary care (that 0.9% also shared with hospital waiting time reductions and “patient experience”, making it hard to break down further).  That 0.9% is the only thing I’d recognise as being a better real world health outcome, but what do I know when the ONS has got a man with a spreadsheet and some figures for drug prescriptions?

            It seems that what this report is really saying is that we got less for our money (inputs exceeding outputs), and that there was a tiny fractional improvement of less than 0.9% despite the money nearly trebling. Actually, that pretty much sums up the whole New Labour experience from 1997-2010, across any number of departments.

            It is slightly eyebrow-raising that the whole of Section 2 is devoted to a justification for “adjusting” quality and quantity outcomes.  Then the whole of section 3 is about “triangulation”, or using previous reports (and what is the relevance of a 2005 report to a 2011 report, none, apart from providing some creaky support) to insert error bars into statistics that in Section 2 were acknowledged to be “quality adjusted”

            I could go on, but you are not the author.  But I would say nothing in that report seems to justify a single great claim of 77%.

          • derek

            Jaime, surely some of the increase in drug prescriptions are down to new drug and medicines like 
            etanercept/Enbrel and the new cancer drugs for kidney and liver cancers, I’m hunching my bet that’s where a lot of the additional cash is going.Ain’t it the case that the NHS changed it’s supplier of insulin to a more cost effective synthetic make? which is almost double the cost of the previous supplier?

          • jaime taurosangastre candelas

            Derek,

            there may be something in what you say there (I’m not a pharmacologist, and I don’t have any dealings on the procurement side so don’t know about which companies supply what or what they charge), but the overall fact is that you cannot reasonably think “hmm, more drugs prescribed, therefore better outcome”, without looking into things in a lot more detail, and there is no evidence at all of that being done in the 55 page report.

            Sometimes more drugs are good, sometimes more drugs are not so good.  There’s about a thousand reasons to favour either hypothesis, and the reality is somewhere in the middle.

            It also does not matter if a patient died after 100 doses, or got better after 10 doses. The data presented do not count such things. But I will bet that the dead patients’ relatives do not turn around and say “Well at least he had 8.6% more drugs than Maggie would have given him”, equally the surviving patient is unlikely to turn to his Doctor and complain “but you cured me with only 10 doses! Maggie would have cured me with 13! Where’s my money’s worth?”

          • derek

            Jaime, you’ve got the upper hand on me here.I’ve no idea whether your A/E  department has dealt with more or less patients over the last 10 years but I’m guessing again it’s more, secondly, I’d say that knee ops and hip replacements are higher now than they were 20 years ago, thirdly, I’d say there’s been a marked improvement in life saving figures from cancers and heart attack victims and fourthly I’d say that the NHS employs more not less than it did 15 years ago..

          • PeterBarnard

            Jaime,

            I accept that “outputs” in healthcare can be notoriously difficult to measure, eg I take medication for hypertension (not surprising, reading some of the comments on these pages) and the output – my blood pressure being kept at tolerable levels – is just impossible to measure.

            It’s the same with an operation to remove a nasty appendix ; what is the “output?” What has been done is absolutely non-tradeable.

            Now, it’s ok for you to raise a whole lot of questions and say that 77% isn’t justified, but if we can’t measure “output,” how can anyone in the NHS – from the most eminent surgeon downwards – justify any (above inflation)  increase in pay unless they are actually performing more work, ie last year I removed 1,000 appendixes, and this year I removed 1,100, so I’m due a 10% increase in pay?

          • jaime taurosangastre candelas

            Peter, you are entirely correct.

            It is why I ask for such targets for my department (we have not yet reached the stage of deliberately causing accidents or setting fires to “drum up custom”).

            But there are ways – as an engineer you’ll know of what is measurable and what is not, and more importantly what is worth measuring and what is not, and as you got to the pinnacle of your profession you’d also know what needs to be measured to what acceptable level of precision, and the young graduate trainee will look at you and wonder how on earth can you know that, or at a glance say “good enough”, or why sometimes you spend half of the night trying to get that final quarter of a percent improvement because that is the key to unlocking an easy 20% improvement.

            Goodness, Peter, you appear to have an inner tory in you, at least in terms of quantified productivity and reward.  But Alexei Stakhanov would also have approved, and he was very fierce on targets and metrics.

      • http://twitter.com/tristanpw1 TristanPriceWilliams

        I think he’d have been terribly disappointed that the gap between rich and poor grew all the time that Blair/Brown were in government. He’d have been appalled at the doubling of the bottom rate of income tax. He’d have hated the fact that private companies were targeted to put sick people off social security to save money squandered by bankers.

        I think all in all he would think that he had by mistake stumbled into the Conservative’s party headquarters

    • ThePurpleBooker

      That is just complete rubbish (as usual). Who delivered Keir Hardie’s three demands of the Labour Party – abolition of hereditary privilege in the Lords, a minimum wage and home rule for Scotland. The Labour Government of 1997 to 2010 – aka New Labour. Hardie would have been proud that Labour won three general elections, that we lift millions of poverty (especially children), that we were able to have a windfall tax on utilities to help the poor pensioners, that we brought in SureStart, that we had record investment in our public services, that we introduced gay rights legislation and civil partnerships, that we gave parents paternity pay, that we delivered the Olympics, that we cut crime to its lowest levels, that we dropped debt for third world countries, that we delivered the lowest unemployment in our history. Get your facts right, Alan! He would have been less proud of some of things that happened in 1945, with the mass nationalisation that went on. His Labour tradition was about responsibility, solidarity and community but also devolving power to people but not from an old fashioned statism which you so love. He would have enjoyed reading The Purple Book and would have been interested in Blue Labour, though I reckon he would have told Maurice to calm down on speeches on immigration. He’d have been a fiscal realist and urged us to radically reform our public services so that we can not just have value for money but also have greater public participation. He would have been so very proud of the Labour Party, not proud of idiots like Tony Benn and Alan Giles.

      • Alan Giles

         PB: The irony of constantly being called “an idiot” by an ignorant cretin who is even too frightened to put his name to his rantings!

        • ThePurpleBooker

          Is Alan Giles not your real name? Oh right!

          • treborc

             Yes it is  ex liberal

      • Brumanuensis

        “He would have been less proud of some of things that happened in 1945, with the mass nationalisation that went on. His Labour tradition was about responsibility, solidarity and community but also devolving power to people but not from an old fashioned statism which you so love”.

        The Scottish Labour Party founded by Hardie (among others) in 1888, had an 18-point programme which included the aspiration ‘state acquisition of railways, waterways and tramways’, as well as of land and coal.

        As for telling Glasman to ‘calm down on speeches on immigration’, the Labour manifesto of 1906 includes a line attacking ‘Chinese labour’ (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Hardie_1906_manifesto.gif)

        Try again.

        • ThePurpleBooker

          I know you have an extremely limited knowledge of Labour history, judging by your utterly misguided comments about Neil Kinnock but try again. Hardie would have been upset at nationalisation because if you look at his politics, he was suspicious of the power of the state and the market. You are characturing his 18-point programme. As for Chinese labour, I think that was the effects of globalisation not on immigrants. Quite remarkable you want to paint Hardie as a xenophobic statist. I know you know very little history, but try again and do your research.

          • treborc

             This from a bloke who was until a few months ago   called the Ex Lib dem, and you know so much of the Labour party I suspect from  Google.

          • ThePurpleBooker

            Rubbish, seen as I have never been a member of any other political party. I think you should shut up seen as you support the Tories for Westminster elections and Plaid Cymru for Assembly elections, you utter mendacious hypocrite.

          • treborc

            And your an ex liberal

          • ThePurpleBooker

            No I am not. I have liberal values regarding gay rights and women’s issues, but I have never been a Lib Dem. You however vote Tory and Plaid i.e. hypocrite.

          • Brumanuensis

            If you can’t grasp the simple fact that Neil Kinnock is generally regarded as having been from the soft left of the Party, then there is no point discussing this matter. What exactly do you think ’soft left’ means?

            I’d have more sympathy for your view on immigration were it not for the fact that the leaflet says ‘Chinese labour is defended because it enriches the mineowners’. Nor do I think Hardie was xenophobic, but anti-immigration sentiment amongs the working-class was not uncommon at the turn of the 20th century.

          • ThePurpleBooker

            My word, let’s get some sense into you.
            Neil Kinnock IS NOT on the soft left of the Labour Party. He is on the right of the party. In the ’70s and the very early ’80s, he was from the same ideological position as Benn and Foot. He gradually swayed after becoming angry with what Benn did in the deputy leadership contest. He was elected in 1983 as a leftwinger with Hattersley as someone from the right. Throughout his leadership, he swayed further to the right. He dropped ‘The Red Flag’ and brought in the rose, he hired Peter Mandelson and Charles Clarke (both men who were on the right of the party), he also brought in Phillip Gould, he dropped our commitment to nationalisation in terms of policy, he dropped our commitment on Trident, he became somoene from the same ideological heritage as John Golding (possibly further to the right than that). You are clearly very confused. For heaven’s sake, he backed Harriet Harman for the deputy leadership!On the point on Chinese Labour, he was talking about the effect of globalisation. Labour has never been an anti-immigrant party, in fact Hardie was multicultural in many ways (which justifies my comment regarding Glasman). Again, you are wrong. It was the Labour movement that shielded the working class from the threats of such racism and fascism, and has always championed that cause. Big shame, that you want to paint the founder of our party as a racist.

          • Brumanuensis

            On Keir Hardie, great man and sincere opponent of nationalism and militarism though he was, he did write this:

            http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/immig_emig/scotland/strathclyde/article_2.shtml

            “Even a figure such as Keir Hardie, founding father of the Labour Party, led a
            fierce, xenophobic campaign against the Lithuanians. Hardie, as a leader of
            Ayrshire miners, wrote an article for the journal, The Miner, in which he stated
            that: “For the second time in their history Messrs. Merry and Cunninghame have
            introduced a number of Russian Poles to Glengarnock Ironworks. What object they
            have in doing so is beyond human ken unless it is, as stated by a speaker at
            Irvine, to teach men how to live on garlic and oil, or introduce the Black
            Death, so as to get rid of the surplus labourers.”

          • ThePurpleBooker

            No offence, but you are full of guff. You are now trying to paint Hardie as a racist which is foolish. He was not a xenophobe at all, many of the working class communities lived alongside non-white people. He was opposed the globalisation. I think it is just plain weird of you to chat rubbish and paint Hardie as a racist. Quite despicable. I suggest you stick to the facts.

          • Brumanuensis

            Jesus Christ, I f****** quote Hardie and you still accuse me of making things up.

          • ThePurpleBooker

            You are quoting Hardie out of context. You aren’t very clever. You claim to know what NSI is when you do not. You claim to know Hardie’s views about the state when you don’t. You claim that Hardie was a racist, when he wasn’t. You claim that Kinnock is soft left, when he isn’t. You pretended the Labour Uncut source never existed. You claim to know about the Constitution, when you know absolutely nothing. You pretend to have a brain, when clearly you’ve got a nerve! 

          • Michael Steele

            I am afraid not actually, his supporters in the Clydeside striked over migrant labour, including black migrant labour as well.

          • Brumanuensis

            On Kinnock:

            a). The Rose is a universal social-democratic symbol, no complaints here.

            b). Clarke and Mandelson were admired for their skills. All this illustrates is that Kinnock could work across the Party if need be.

            c). Kinnock only pledged not to reverse existing privatisations, on the grounds of time and expense. That didn’t mean he supported them, nor that he wouldn’t have reversed them if he could have done – he was, for instance, a vocal supporter of renationalising the railways.

            d). Kinnock’s change on Trident was pure pragmatism. In 2007, he said he thought Trident renewal was being rushed and should be delayed. More recently, he appears to have returned to his unilateralist roots: http://www.islingtontribune.com/news/2011/jan/has-lord-kinnock-broken-labour-party-ranks/

          • ThePurpleBooker

            Rubbish.
            1) He ditched The Red Flag and replaced it with the Rose which signalleda rightward move. End of story.
            2) Clarke and Mandelson did not just have skills but had ideological positions which Kinnock used. Blair and Brown were his acolytes, too and Kinnock relied heavily on Mandelson’s advice. Would a lefty hire such people? No!3) On reversing privatisations, if he was on the left of the party that would have been a priority. It was not a priority for him. Kinnock began to embrace the market and the private sector.
            4) On Trident, you mention pragmatism – exactly! The right of the party are the pragmatists and let pragmatism drive their actual politics. Gaitskell was like that, too. Charles Clarke shared the same position on Trident. Has he returned to his unicameralist roots?5) Kinnock began the modernisation of the party. I think you should accept you are utterly wrong on this one. For goodness sake’s, he became a European Commissioner and a peer!

          • Brumanuensis

            Oh I give up. At least with Jaime, right-wing liberal though he is, I can have a serious conversation. You just prattle on with the same bone-headed talking points.

            If you think pragmatism is the sole property of the Labour right, then clearly there is nothing we can discuss.

          • ThePurpleBooker

            You give up because you have been proved absolutely wrong. You’re arguments have been absolutely and utterly void from the start but you cower away from admitting that you were wrong. You are the one who prattles, I know what I am talking about.
            I never said pragmatism is the sole property of the Labour right, again twisting my words. Pragmatism has driven the policies and ideas from the Labour right. Have you heard of Hugh Gaitskell? I don’t think you have!

          • Alan Giles

             ”Mandelson were admired for their skills”

            But even Blair drew the line at Mandy’s “skills” at filling in mortgage application forms so imaginatively!

        • ThePurpleBooker

          The nationalisation proposed by Hardie was in order to empower people regarding these services, not for almighty state control.

          • Brumanuensis

            Well why the cluck do you think the post-war Labour government nationalised?

            Do you think the 1918 Clause 4 (‘To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service’) is a passage redolent of a desire for state control for its own sake? The same clause Atlee, Morrison, Dalton and Bevan were all drawing upon to justify their positions?

            Jesus wept. 

          • ThePurpleBooker

            Going back to Clause IV signalling our commitment to nationalisation. You are a funny guy. Nationalisation eventually becomes state control whereby you do not have services tailored around the needs of people but of PPE graduates working in Whitehall. It always happens. I think you really need to learn your history, mate. You are completely and utterly out of your depths.

          • Brumanuensis

            You really need to read my answers properly. Does the old Clause 4 – something Keir Hardies colleagues had a direct hand in drafting and which was the basis for the post-war nationalisations, look like a text endorsing state control for state control’s sake?

            Yes or no. Simple question.

          • jaime taurosangastre candelas

            It is still logically flawed.  Take some exemplar industry employing 1,000, or a million – it does not matter.  Nationalise it, and assume it to be either slightly or wildly successful.  Do those workers ever see “the full fruit” of their labours?  Of course they never did.  Apart from the fact that most nationalised industries never made a profit or had to be grossly subsidised (subsidies paid by the taxes of other people), even if they had made a huge profit, it all went to the Government, the workers’ payslips were the same, and any “returns” were doled out in things they may not have wanted or had a use for – a childless couple does not for example have much use for shiny new primary schools.

            But then Clause 4 and the other theories underpinning socialism always were a nonsense, even if some dinosaurs still live on in the modern Labour Party.

          • Brumanuensis

            I’ll just add that ‘full fruit’ was never intended to have a purely financial meaning. It was meant to imply a general sense of greater equity within the organisation of industry.

          • Brumanuensis

            Jaime,

            Many workers in nationalised industries did see gains in wages and conditions, particularly in British Coal. It’s also worth remembering that many were chronically under-funded, as British Rail was for the first 20-or-so years of its life, not to mention Dr Beeching’s foolishness.

            I don’t think anyone wants to go back to the old model of nationalisation – which was based on Herbert Morrison’s success with TfL during the 1930s. It works for some industries and not for others. Most left-wingers – notably Owen Jones – want a more co-operative model where operational control is shared between the government, employee representatives and consumer representatives. There’s also more interest in the old model of giving workers direct control over their workplaces. Certainly I don’t think nationalisation of the steel industry or other major industrial concerns, should be Labour Party policy. I restrict myself to public transport and utilities.

            It is perfectly possible for nationalised industries to be run well – the old British Gas boards were highly regarded, whilst French and German railways are of exceptional quality. Likewise, Chile’s economic recovery during the 80s was heavily dependent on copper, which had never been privatised, even under Pinochet.

          • ThePurpleBooker

            No, I am sorry mate but it is you who needs to read answers properly and it is you who need to actually do your research. I wonder whether you know what you are talking about.

        • ThePurpleBooker

          I think in order to help your extremely awful and limited knowledge about Labour history you should watch The Wilderness Years, listen to the Keir Hardie Lecture 2010 and reach some of Paul Richards’ stuff (perhaps catch his debate in Compass). Maybe then you’ll learn a thing or two.

          • Brumanuensis

            I’ve watched ‘The Wilderness Years’ many times over and have read many Paul Richards’ columns.

            If you can’t be bothered to do your research, PurpleBooker, don’t waste everyone’s time.

            I mean, even Progress agrees with me on Keir Hardie and nationalisation.

            http://www.progressonline.org.uk/2011/02/27/what-would-keir-hardie-make-of-labour-111-years-on/

            A piece that also abundantly illustrates the risks of extrapolating from over a century ago, to modern-day British politics.

          • ThePurpleBooker

            You have not watched The Wildnerness Years otherwise you would not have said such stupid things about Neil Kinnock and you would have no pride in being a ‘Kinnockite’ (even though you are not one).
            You cannot be bothered to do your research because you have such a limited knowledge about history. What you said about referenda on constitutional changes, you cannot make up your mind on National Salary Insurance. On the Progress article, it refers to the fact he a policy which was referring to nationalisation in the betterment of working people. It was state control which is the route adopted by the party post-1945. Hardie came from a strong socialist background of self-organisation and self-help, not state power. I am afraid you need to do your research and read some of Paul Richards’ stuff. Hardie was not a statist.

          • Brumanuensis

            I have watched it, PurpleBooker, regardless of what you believe.

            I wouldn’t crow on knowledge. You think the British constitution places the people as the ultimate arbiters, something no constitutional theorist – not A.V. Dicey, who actually liked referenda, nor Lord Bingham, nor Vernon Bogdanor – endorses. You clearly didn’t bother to read what I said about NSI and what you believe – higher contributions should equal higher returns – is emphatically not what the IPPR pamphlet advocates. They advocate time-linked returns, capped at a certain level, which funnily enough happens to be what I advocate too.

            Kindly explain to me how ‘state acquisition of railways, waterways and tramways’ is NOT nationalisation. Put another way, do you believe Atlee wanted to nationalise for nationalisation’s sake?

          • ThePurpleBooker

            Jesus wept!
            On the constitution, I have said that every major constitutional change has to be verified by the public in a referendum and that is a fact because the Constitution is the property of the people, not government. You have denied that seen as that is something Vernon Bogdanor, John Curtice, Lord Bingham and others have said. You are completely wrong. On NSI, you claimed the NSI pamphlet backed you. My word, you have reached a new level of delusion. The NSI proposed higher salaries requring higher contributions in return for higher benefits for about six months, capped at £200 weekly. That is something I have supported. You attacked that and said that was ‘regressive’ but then you support NSI. You clearly no idea.
            On nationalisation, I have said that nationalisation was the only method for people power at the time but in 1945 (whatever Atlee’s intentions – which were very noble, no doubt about that) led to a system where people were disempowered and PPE graduates in grey suits were in control. I am sorry, mate but do your research, look at the facts, instead of jumping on any bandwagon – look at the detail and then come back to me. You trying to lecture me on the IPPR, the Constitution and Keir Hardie – hahahahahaha!

          • Brumanuensis

            Ok, I’ll be brief.

            On the constitution – go and look up ‘Parliamentary Supremacy’. Read up on it. If you still believe after that, that the British constitution is based upon the will of the people, then I truly give up trying to knock sense into you.

            On NSI, you clearly haven’t bothered to read the pamphlet properly, because it clearly states the maximum amount claimable over 6 months is capped at a sum of around £7000.

            On nationalisation, I…agree with you? But how does this prove that Keir Hardie wouldn’t have supported those nationalisations? It doesn’t. You are arguing an inarguable point.

          • ThePurpleBooker

            On the Constitution, I think it is you who needs to actually study the Constitution because you have not. Parliament can make decisions on constitutional matters but it is a constitutional necessity that any major constitutional change has to be verified by the people seen as it their Constitution. Part of the reason why we need no written Constitution. The Constitution belongs to the people. If you had any knowledge whatsoever, then you will know that if it wasn’t the case then we would not have had referenda on devolution (and there would have been devolution in the 1970s), we would not have had referenda on AV, we would not have had referenda on regional assemblies etc. If you are right then UKIP would be proposing absolute withdrawal from the EU. That is not their policy, theirs is a referendum and then they will campaign for withdrawal. You have no logic.
            As for National Salary Insurance, you clearly have not done your homework at all. NSI is a proposed scheme where people have to make contributions (higher salaries requiring higher contributions) in order to access 70% of their former salary for six months, capped at £200 a week for six months, paid back through an income contingent loan. You have not read one sentence of the pamphlet otherwise you will know that is what the policy is, so you are just plain wrong. For your safety, I urge you not to try and lecture me on the IPPR.As for nationalisation, the reason why Hardie would have eventually opposed it is because it would lead to disempowerment and the state having absolute control which is not what he wanted at all. Hardie was a socialist, not a statist. Therefore, my position is completelty arguable and on all your points you are just plain wrong.

          • Brumanuensis

            Study the constitution? What, all of it? Do you know where it’s written down for handy reference?

            Please explain to me where it is stated, or where any British constitutional scholar has argued, that the consent of the people through a referendum is required to enact major constitutional changes.

            Hint: it isn’t. Referenda are only proposed for political, not constitutional purposes. There was nothing that required the Scotland Act to be endorsed by a referendum, nor did AV need to have a referendum.

            Go on PurpleBooker. Give me one source setting out your point-of-view. One recognised constitutional scholar. It shouldn’t be too hard if things are as obvious as you say they are.

            “NSI is a proposed scheme where people have to make contributions (higher salaries requiring higher contributions) in order to access 70% of their former salary for six months, capped at £200 a week for six months, paid back through an income contingent loan”.

            Ah, so you DO agree with me that higher contributions do not give you unlimited higher payouts? I will, in fairness, grant you that there is an element of escalation, but given that the median UK gross salary for full time workers is around £500, the effect will be quite small.

            As for the last point, you are effectively claiming that you have perfect knowledge of the mind of Keir Hardie, not only during his life-time, but for a period around 30 years after his death. How modest of you.

          • Brumanuensis

            Now for the last time, give me your definition of soft-left. Just so we know what we’re both referring to.

          • ThePurpleBooker

            The soft left would have referred to the likes of Peter Shore, and I reckon now it would refer to the likes of Frank Dobson and Anne Begg. If you had any sufficient knowledge of Labour history, then you will know full well that Kinnock is staunchly on the right of the Labour Party.

          • Brumanuensis

            So you randomly name people rather than political positions.

            Sums up your attitude to politics really.

          • ThePurpleBooker

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Shore

            Your attitude to politics is based on stats rather than values and basic misinterpretations. I have named people who would be classified as ‘soft left’, and if you were not thick then you would get the picture.

          • Brumanuensis

            Your values being that victims of domestic violence aren’t a priority for rehousing, because they haven’t ‘contributed’ enough.

            Wikipedia? Really? How exactly does that rebut the Telegraph’s obituary?

            Your ‘pictures’ make about as much sense as a work by Kandinsky.

          • http://twitter.com/renieanjeh Renie Anjeh

            Both of you are being a bit unfair. On Peter Shore, he was on the right of the party not the left. My understand and the understanding of others is that you need referenda to validate major constitutional changes, that seems a good position to take. Also, Brumanuensis should not be unfair towards this new housing policy. He should look at the Bill presented to Frank Field and it has no effect on victims of domestic violence. Both of you should calm down.

          • Alan Giles
          • Brumanuensis

            Precisely Alan.

          • treborc

             Kinnock to the right, I will tell him that when I see him again.

          • ThePurpleBooker

            Yes, he is on the right of the Labour Party.

  • Franwhi

    There is no doubt  Keir Hardie would have had more personal integrity than the whole Shadow Cabinet put together, doing things like addressng striking miners,  and actively supporting suffragism. A principledman is a scarce thing now in Scottish Labour.  

  • Daniel Speight

    We can talk about offering clear alternatives and even specific policies, but what is missing is a vision of society in the future that party members can aim for. The vision doesn’t need to have the i’s dotted and t’s crossed. It doesn’t need to be the exact same hope that Keir Hardie had. Times do change and we know more now than he ever had the chance to know back then.

    The important part is there must be something there that the party can have as a core belief. It can be built around mutualization or cooperatives or whatever.

    The other option is where we find ourselves now, where words like equality were banned by New Labour spin doctors. Where a future vision just becomes a bit of tinkering around the edges like we hear from Creasy. That’s the same as saying we have already reached the ‘New Jerusalem’ and we just need to tidy it up a bit. I for one do not believe we have got there. In fact I believe we are moving further away from it, whatever it is, at the moment.

  • Alan Giles

    “in the UK, we all want our own one, and when we have got it, we do not
    want a large block of flats to be built in the way of our woodland view”

    Jaime, I apologise for being “local” (it is a terrible bore I know for people in other parts of the country to be so specific, but please bear with me)

    I have no objections to house building, but are these things thought through properly?

    I live in Havering where every bit of spare land is pounced upon to build “apartments” and family homes. Within a few minutes walk a couple of hundred new houses are under construction, however, we have an ageing population. Havering and Redbridge and Barking and Dagenham share health facilities, and have two main hospitals – “Queens” (as advertised on several news programmes and the national press) and King George’s. King Georges is shortly to lose it’s maternity and A & E departments. Queens is already groaning under the weight (as somebody with an old friend who frequently has to take trips to A & E and I accompany I really am not putting it on – there have been occassions when we have arrived at 2000 hrs on a Saturday and not left till mid-morning on a Sunday. Weekdays are just as bad. You will know.

    Now in allowing these homes to be built have the muppets on Havering Council overlooked the fact that all these extra residents are going to become ill or have accidents, or get pregnant, or become old (if they are lucky – the alternative is worse :-)   ).

    Obviously Havering is not alone, but it seems to me, in microcosm this area shows the stupidity and short-sightedness of those who are arrogant enough to think they can “lead” us.

    BTW I am not indulging in special pleading. I hate hospitals, even as a visitor/accompanist, and I hope every day I will never have to be admitted (especially not to Queens). I’ll probably be one of those robust till the last minute  old codgers of whom the local shopkeepers say “fancy that, he was only in here on Monday!”.

    We are making more problems than we solve thanks to greed and stupidity (John P Reid might actually agree with me for once since for years we have had a Conservative council), but regardless of party there are far too many interfering amateurs making decisions they don’t think through. I think instead of “events, dear boy, events” politicians local and national should say “consequences, dear boy, consequences”

    • jaime taurosangastre candelas

      Alan,

      please know that I don’t mind your trip into “localism” – real detail and specific anecdotes are a way of putting flesh on the bones.

      I’m not going to make any observations about your local hospital closure – I have no information on that, and it is on the “wrong side” of a line I draw in my head.

      But as a point of generality, no one should routinely be visiting A&E, as your friend has to.  That is simply poor management firstly by the hospital, and secondly by the individual’s GP.  If someone has a chronic condition, long term arrangements should be put into place. But it does happen, I know.  The first hospital I worked at in the UK did use A&E as a clearing station, and guess what?  the waiting times were terrible.  

      The problem in the past has been that traditionally A&E is staffed 24 hours a day, you can guarantee to find an awake doctor in there, it is not specialist to any condition, and it is normally geographically the most obvious way of getting into a hospital – the “front door” if you like.  Ambulance Services were also told to take everyone to A&E in the “off” hours (not pregnancies though).

      You are probably not very interested in the details of hospital management or deemed best practice, it is as with everything adjusting year by year, but the best idea now is to have something called a “Medical Assessment Unit” who act as a clearing station.  Genuine accidents and emergencies go to A&E, other cases go to a temporary ward that is optimised for monitoring and to be looked at by the relevant specialists in the morning.  It may sound like moving about the deck chairs on the Titanic, or just a name for a function that has to be done anyway, but I can tell you that it improves things a lot (I’ll say 25% as a headline figure, but there is lots of very boring detail behind that, and larger hospitals see more improvement than smaller ones).

      There’s also some poor management prevalent around discharge procedures, which may explain why you have to wait until mid-morning to be allowed to go.  Basically, once you are admitted, it always takes a more senior staff member to discharge you than the one who admitted you.  It is cultural, and trying to avoid obvious mistakes, but the effect is also to add several hours of delay in discharge to most cases.  This can also be eased considerably if more senior doctors do discharges as the first thing they do after arriving for a working day, not reviewing new over night admittances or having a staff conference, and then having a half hour slot just before their lunch to discharge people who have been waiting patiently all morning.

      • Alan Giles

         Thanks for the response Jaime. It probably doesn’t help that the patient in this case has more than one problem (uncontrolled epilepsy being the worst), but despite a brief but detailed  resume’ written by his neurologist which is always available, the staff are not inclined to read it, even when offered a hard copy!

        • jaime taurosangastre candelas

          Alan,

          without crossing my own line and offering any specific advice, please as his friend consider going to have a conversation with his GP – with him present – about a more manageable long-term plan.  You taking him to A&E regularly is about as sub-optimal as I can conceive.

          Also look at this:  http://www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/pdf/CG020publicinfoenglish.pdf

          I am afraid that I cannot offer any more in his case – but you have access to others who should, and now I hope some information.

          • Alan Giles

             Thanks for that Jaime. I think he problem is that as I no longer drive, I usually get a panic stricken phone call to say an ambulance has been called, and… well you can guess the rest!

    • ThePurpleBooker

      You live in Havering, funny that seen as earlier on you claimed to be a Northerner and that Frank Field was your MP.

      • Brumanuensis

        Alan has always been fairly clear that he lives in east London currently. I didn’t know it was Havering, but I’d picked up the general location. Maybe you haven’t been paying attention?

        • ThePurpleBooker

          He did not. He said that Frank Field is his MP and he rants on about his hatred for London-based politicians. Anyway, where in Havering? I bet he just looked at a random borough which he’d like to live. Whereabouts? Anyway, most people in Havering don’t really say they are from East London, but say they are from Essex on an old-fashioned technicality.

          • Brumanuensis

            Could you provide links for where Alan has said Frank Field ‘is’ – not ‘was’ – his MP?

          • ThePurpleBooker

            Ask him. He said so. I do not profess to have every hyperlink but at least I do not chat factually incorrect fantasies, which is your problem.

          • Brumanuensis

            Oh well, you have no proof. What a surprise.

            To humour you though, I will ask: Alan, have you ever described Frank Field as your current MP?

          • Alan Giles

             Good morning Brumanuensis.  No I can confirm that I have never said or implied that Field is my MP. Indeed, if The Purple Prattler had ever read what I have written, he would know I was born in East London lived in London all my life, and am now enjoying retirement in outer London.

            Why does Mark allow this insulting clown to continue to post his nonsense here, full of grammatical solecisms (“chatting rubbish” and just now “chat factually incorrect &c”…), not to mention his sick fantasies and libels about the character of other posters.

          • Brumanuensis

            Good morning Alan. Alas my periodically recurrent insomnia keeps me up. Good to hear your answer. We had such a nice quiet week and now the lout has returned, I feel quite perturbed. I suppose the blessed Liam and brother Purnell need someone to keep the home fires burning.

          • Alan Giles

             I seriously wonder if Mark ever reads these columns. Indeed, I emailed him privately after the “pedophile” outburst and sent him a copy of it, yet he allows this “man” to continue to post his viscious bile, not even pre-moderating him, which most sites would do, for their own legal protection, after making some of the libelous comments PB does.

            One day LL will be landed in trouble if PB makes one of his comments to the wrong person.

          • ThePurpleBooker

            You are a real hypocrite. Many Labour people have stopped writing on LabourList because of you and your nonsense. Many. You are the one who actually started the abuse when I first started writing on your and now you are frightened by your own medicine. Gosh. You are a sexist, a racist (not surprising really) and you have hijacked my identity and posted very unpleasant remarks about Gordon Brown and others. There is no limit to your incredibility. None.

          • ThePurpleBooker

            Calling people louts? Deary me, I think someone has got an over-inflated ego. Perhaps, you should calm down and read a book. Then you’ll learn a thing or two rather than doing what spouting absolute rubbish.

          • ThePurpleBooker

            You’re from East London? Really? Whereabouts? Don’t say Walford because EastEnders is not real. You called Frank Field your MP when you attacked him for apparently being a Tory. Whose your MP, if it is not Frank Field? Grammatical solecisms? Coming from the man who cannot spell. What is your real name anyway, Alan. Is it Marlowe?

          • Alan Giles

             If you are able to read (as opposed to posting libellous insults), you will see on another thread John P Reid confirms by constituency.

            Mark must be frantic for posters he he continues to allow your cap and bells performances.

            Field, thank God never was and is not my MP by I am as entitled to have an opinion about him, just as much as you are, wanting certain candidates for the 2015 elections and rubishing other posters who live in the areas concerned and don’t agree with you.

            You really shouldn’t judge everybody down to your own low standards, some of us don’t have to lie and hide behind a meaningless name.

          • Brumanuensis

            Given you misspelled my name and can’t spell ‘pedophile’, it’s a bit rich to accuse Alan of not being able to spell.

          • ThePurpleBooker

            I do not profess to have every hyperlink of this website. That is just plain human, I think you should get some sleep because you clearly have no sense whatsoever.

  • https://mikestallard.virtualgallery.com/ Mike Stallard

    The trouble is this: there is no argument.
    Everyone is agreed that governmental control works. Everyone agrees that government is broke and can be easily fixed. Everyone agrees that the good times are coming back if we can get it right.

    Allow me to suggest an alternative idea:
    At the Olympics, the British people built on a platform which indeed was provided partly by the government, partly by private enterprise. We felt free to compete, to run, to jump and to watch TV in a good hearted very English way. The Government (even Boris) was not centre stage.
    Couldn’t the government modestly step back a little tiny bit and let us get on with life?

    Keir Hardy, Napoleon, Julius Caesar, Montezuma, Caliph Yazid…………
    So? Their times have long gone.

    • Crossbow

      Eh? It took four years of government directed management to organise the Olympics. What do you think poor old Tessa Jowell became a Dame of the British Empire for? And didn’t Seb Coe, ex-Conservative MP for Falmouth and Camborne, have some hand in the proceedings? The stadia weren’t built by public subscription either or PFI. And so on and so forth.

    • Stato

      Private sponsors of the Olympic Games only paid 6%, Mike, with the remaining 94% coming from the public purse.

  • John Dore

    “Offering reviews and neutrality about spending priorities is not the way to do that.”       Now that’s real easy thing to say but harder to do in reality. The scary thing is that we are not advocating anything presently so what exactly is Labour all about?????? At this moment in time its just a rosette. I’m not expecting any more than we’re better managers than the last lot.

    • Alan Giles

       We agree for once, John.

      But I feel are problems are now so deep-rooted it needs more than just management of the status quo. We probably wouldn’t agree on what the best solutions would be, but I think we have to admit that, frankly, the coalition’s policies are not working (even the CBI agree on that) and to be frank the final years of Labour were not a rip=roaring success.

      I would argue that our focus on the so-called “war on terror” and money being thrown at Iraq and Afghanistan, resulted in the most appalling waste both of money and life – money so desperately needed for the well-being of of the poor and vulnerable of this country – not to mention education, especially of a practical and technical nature.

      There needs to be some bold decisions made on where this country is going – and it is only fair and proper we know exactly where each party stands on key issues, so we can all make up our own minds. It is all very well for Mr Cruddas to conduct his 2/3 year review, but I feel that is at best, indulgent and at worst naval-gazing.

      There should be a handful of issues – housing, welfare, health and education being the most obvious – where the work should be done first  and with some speed – we can wait about sport, media and culture for 2/3 years.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Homfray/510980099 Mike Homfray

    I think it may be symptomatic of the expectation for immediate reaction to everything which makes people panic unnecessarily when development of policy takes time, ans is not rushed out in immediate reaction to what the Government does.

    The election is still likely to be in 2015. Policy needs to be thought through – the history of British policy-making is littered with policy disasters which have largely been the product of badly devised and hurried policy making on the hoof.

    Resist the temptation to expect and want instant solutions and you may even reach somewhere that is worthwhile to be

    • Alan Giles

       I understand your point, Mike, but I do feel that even if an election is not likely till 2015 (though if the Tories and LibDems did divorce I think Cameron might be bounced into a snap election by his right wing), but my problem with Jon Crudas is that he is more of a thinker than a do-er and I think the debates and discussions probably appeal to him more than the actual implementation of new policies.

      I have severe reservations on some of those he is consulting with TBH (and I am still concerned he regards probably the worst 2 years of Miles Davis’ life, both privately and professionaly as golden years – forgetting the original 1947-1950 success, but I’ll let that pass! :-)

      • ThePurpleBooker

        The reason why you are opposed to Jon Cruddas is not only because he is a thinker but because you don’t (and can’t) think. You let Tony Benn think for you!

        • Sal

          If you begin your abuse again I’m going to flag every single one of your comments and let the moderator decide if any of them see the light of day again. You are a disgrace.

          • treborc

            I would not bother you’d be ending the best comedy act on here.

          • ThePurpleBooker

            Calm down, Aunt Sal.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Homfray/510980099 Mike Homfray

        But surely Jon Cruddas’ role is to do the thinking – and the leader and shadow cabinet to do the doing?

  • john p Reid

    Some interesting things here, Firstly there were 2 Kinnocks, the upto 1987 one where he wanted to re-buy back national things like Council homes and was anti the police, and the post 1987 when apart from increasing the upper rate of tax to 50p there wasn’t much difference between the 92 manifesto and the 1997 one
    ,I’ll give Wilson credit for Vietnam, but as Brumanuensis pointed out the other day Ted Heath’s Industrial relation act was good and shouldn’t have been repealed in 1974, and along with the closed shop it was this sort of pandering to the Unions that resulted in the winter of discontent ,the end to the post was Consensus and Thatcher coming in for 18 year s and doing what she did to the unions with Labour losing heavily every time, Wilson was quoted as saying he was A huge Thatcher fan, he realised that he’d made mistakes with the Unions and It was right for Thatcher to do what she did, He realised it was A mistake for Tony Benn to get so high In cabinet and get to the stage where he nearly destroyed labour saying Of Benn “He’s immatures with age” regarding Wilson accommodating both wings of the Party George Brown left Labour and Roy Jenkins resigned for the cabinet to head for the EU.
    AS Pointed out By several people elections aren’t won in the weeks before hand but 2 years before hand, When Thatcher resigned, it was Obvious then that Labour wasn’t going towin the next election afterall,Labours lead falling from 26% to only6%, When Brown chickened out of the 2007 Eelction,one he could have won,it was then that he never recovered enough to win elections, after the 67 devaluation, It was Obvious According to Michael foot that labour would lose in 1970 and even Before the inter of Discontent there was A Once in AA generation sea change and that the Tories would at least scrape it in 1979, the only exception being the 74 Election which Heath threw away going to the public too early, regarding  The Wilderness years Show, Chris Mullin said the fact the only time the Sun ever Praised Neil Kinnock was his 1985 Conference speech ,where Kinnock himself said that elections were won years before the actual polling day, Mullin felt that having one good headline attacking militant was  counter productive as it wasn’t useful come the 87 election, But If Mullins had listened it was the fact that despite taking on militant and the good that come form that it was too much of an uphill struggle, As for Havering When I was out near where Alan Lives in the 2010 election I knocked on Peoples doors who voted labour unto 1979 and they were saying I’d like to vote Labour but I still recall Clare Short and Bernie grant, Funnily in the 83 and 87 elections Labour use to come third in Upminster (his constituency) on 18% behind the SDP, yet at the 2005 and 2010 elections we were pulling in 30% of the vote here, More than  the National average, I think a lot of people buying their council homes was the reason we did so bad here In those elections I recall at the School election in 87 Being the only kid in the school voting laobur at that election, I also don’t consider Charles Clarke to be that New labour as he voted agianst trident renewal ,was agianst 42 days,

    • Alan Giles

       John P: I don’t agree with a lot of what you say (even by 2010 Bernie had been dead for years, Clare didn’t stand in 2010, so I think those you canvassed were just making silly excuses), poor old George Brown went downhill after losing Belper, escalating his personal demons, poor chap, but let us let that pass. Thank you for confirming where I live because back on “Planet Purple” not only am I an insane kiddy-fiddler, but I am not even me and I don’t live in Havering, so it is nice to know I do exist and to have it confirmed by an independent source. Thanks for that

  • john p Reid

    the other thing abou Vietnam was there was A pentagon official in 1964 who leaked (like the Wikileaks of today) that this war was unwinabe, as Johnson didn’t understand that the so called democracy of the Nam, pre 1960 was soweak ,that the population were prepared to give up democracy as they’d sooner have had A competent dictatorship and tehy were repared to die or this

  • Brumanuensis

    (Apologies to other posters)

    PurpleBooker, you said:
     
    “For your safety, I urge you not to try and lecture me on the IPPR”

    I could report you to the police for that remark. I will do if you do it again. I am completely seriously about this.

Latest

  • Featured We must challenge the biggest welfare myth of all

    We must challenge the biggest welfare myth of all

    Who can forget Gordon Brown’s meeting with Gillian Duffy? Nothing has come close in recent years to symbolising the disconnect between the Westminster bubble and the working class. As someone who had to endure every painful minute of Duffygate it’s a lesson I’ll never forget. Mrs Duffy’s memorable intervention on the campaign trail means it’s now widely accepted in our party that calling someone racist simply for raising concerns about immigration putting pressure on public services or pushing down wages [...]

    Read more →
  • Comment The culture of high risk credit is being exploited by betting shops

    The culture of high risk credit is being exploited by betting shops

    Since the financial crisis, the perfect storm of recession and banks restricting access to credit has led to the rise of payday lenders. Our high streets are slowly deteriorating from the vibrant, diverse places they once were into an abyss of pawnbrokers, payday loan shops and bookies. The three feed off of each other, targeting some of our most deprived areas and perpetuating a cycle of despair driven by the need for extra income. Research carried out by Geofutures found [...]

    Read more →
  • Comment Should people be asked if they are party supporters when they register to vote?

    Should people be asked if they are party supporters when they register to vote?

    Chris Clark and Rav Seeruthun on a small change that if adopted, would free activists to spend more time on community work Every year at party conferences we hear professional politicians eulogise hard-working party volunteers. And there’s no activity more often evoked than that of ‘knocking on doors’. It’s a common delusion that the purpose of doorstep canvassing is to ‘persuade’ voters. Having taken part in our fair share of Labour canvassing sessions, we’ve both had the dispiriting experience of [...]

    Read more →
  • Europe Featured You can always rely on the Conservatives to ignore the public when it comes to Europe

    You can always rely on the Conservatives to ignore the public when it comes to Europe

    Europe is not often the issue which comes top of people’s concerns on the doorstep. Nor do opinion polls suggest that Europe is a priority for voters when compared to issues like the economy or jobs. But you can always rely on the Conservatives to ignore the public when it comes to Europe. This week saw over a hundred Conservative MPs rebel and vote against their own Queens Speech. They were angry that it hadn’t included a bill which would [...]

    Read more →
  • News Seats and Selections Vicky Foxcroft selected as Labour’s PPC for Lewisham Deptford

    Vicky Foxcroft selected as Labour’s PPC for Lewisham Deptford

    Vicky Foxcroft has been selected by Lewisham Deptford CLP as the party’s candidate for 2015 at a selection meeting this afternoon. Here’s a brief biography: Vicky grew up in the North West in a single parent household, and was the first person in her family to go to university. She has held many positions in the party including Chair of Labour Students, has sat on the National Policy Forum and is currently a local councillor and is Chair of Lewisham [...]

    Read more →