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Yaqoob for Labour? Unlikely – and that’s almost certainly for the best

September 12, 2012 7:00 am

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Last night Respect leader Salma Yaqoob left George Galloway’s party. This followed in the wake of another high profile respect member – Manchester Central candidate Kate Hudson – distancing herself from the Bradford West MP only last week when she stood down as Respect’s candidate for the Manchester Central by-election.

The Galloway bandwagon is missing more than a few wheels this morning.

Perhaps predictably, news of Yaqoob’s decision was amplified in the excitable echo chamber of Twitter by Labour supporters – both those urging her to join and those decrying the possibility of such a defection.

Now might be one of those occasions where it might be time to stop, reflect, and take a deep breath.

First of all, the idea that Yaqoob is likely to join the Labour Party straight out Respect seems an odd one. Yaqoob may have argued in the past that she personally is “a friend of Labour”, but her former party certainly aren’t. Anyone who has come face to face with Respect know that much of their politics is defined by their certainty that the Labour Party is “A Very Bad Thing”. Words like betrayal are often tossed about by their members, and with a venom rarely seen in British politics. She has stuck with them for a decade.

Secondly, whilst Yaqoob may have grown tired of Galloway and his behaviour, until recently – despite everything that the we all know about George Galloway – she was happy to be seen with him, support him, praise him and campaign for him – and to head up a party that attacked Labour at every opportunity.

Only six months ago, Yaqoob was Galloway’s biggest cheerleader, saluting the “Bradford Spring”. Even just hearing that phoney and frankly offensive phrase makes me shudder. The Labour Party is an imperfect beast, but to compare it to North African dictators is risible. And yet that’s what happened that night and in the days afterwards. It was a blow to the solar plexus of the Labour Party, and Yaqoob was one of those thumping Labour hardest.

Just six months ago.

And yet there are many in the party I respect, and who are more familiar with Yaqoob, her work and her time as a Birmingham councillor than I am, who would welcome her into the party. Are they right? I question the judgment of some of the things she has said and done in the past, but the same goes for many current Labour MPs too.

This is a broad church, and if Tories and Lib Dems who repent can be welcomed into the fold, why not Yaqoob and others who started life far to the left of Labour? What it is that makes some former opponents beyond the pale and not others.

Where do our red lines lie?

Some of our more successful recent ministers also dabbled, for a time, on the far left too – but are now more than accepted by the party establishment, indeed they are the party establishment.

Personally, I welcome anyone into the party who genuinely embraces Labour values and believes in the party.

My scepticism comes from the fact that Yaqoob helped found a party that was explicitly intended to supplant Labour and take votes from it, and cheered for it on one of Labour’s grimmest nights just months ago. The Bradford West wound is still a little open and raw…

I’m sceptical that Yaqoob could go from cheering on George Galloway in Bradford in March, to knocking on doors for Labour in Bradford in September…

I’m sceptical that Yaqoob embraces the values of the Labour Party (unless you believe the values of Respect and the Labour Party are similar, which I certainly don’t) if she could help a man who loathes the Labour Party become an MP…twice…

I don’t think she’ll try to join – I think she’ll still consider herself incompatible with Labour – and unless she’s willing to admit she was wrong in backing Respect and Galloway, I don’t think she should.

No doubt I’ll be attacked as employing double standards, but this isn’t the defection of a local councillor we’re talking about here – this is the potential defection of a party leader. As such it would likely be the most high profile defection into the party since Shaun Woodward joined from the Tories. It would need to be handled with care, caution and no little time. If it were to happen, relationships would need to be forged, wounds allowed to heal and mea culpas made. Yaqoob would need to go further than most defectors in disowning her previous support for her old party because she is far more prominent and far better known than most defectors. Ten years of attacks on Labour couldn’t be undone overnight.

Most likely, if Yaqoob were to defect to Labour it would cause an almighty row within the party. Maybe one day, when Bradford West (hopefully) looks like a quirk of history, she could join, though it’s more likely that she never will – because Yaqoob and Labour are probably not a right fit. For both sides that’s probably inevitable and almost certainly for the best.

Salma Yaqoob will likely continue to agitate against Labour from outside the Party, and the Labour Party will survive – as it has done so far – without Salma Yaqoob.

But what if my scepticism is proved wrong? What if she genuinely changes her mind, admits where she went wrong, embraces Labour values, wants to see a Labour government and is willing to campaign for it?

I guess we’ll cross that bridge if we come to it, but in principle – like any other would be member – why not…? Otherwise we just say anyone who wasn’t born into this great old party of ours has no place in it if they were misguided enough to end up somewhere else first – and where’s the sense in that?

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Related posts:

  1. Galloway’s party in disarray as leader Yaqoob quits
  2. An open letter to Bradford Labour Party, from Tower Hamlets – how to handle Galloway
  • http://twitter.com/GreenLeftie Michael Bater

    I’m sorry Mark, but are you basically saying that it’s all right for an ex Tory as in 
    Woodward to join the Party, who would of been knocking on doors, saying how bad the Labour Party were when he was a Tory, but when someone on the left were to join, that’s wrong?

    And who will it cause an almighty row with?

    I expect most of the grass roots of the Party would welcome her, as she is in line with a lot of their thinking.

    The Blairite Progress might complain, but they complain about everything! 

  • http://www.robbiescott.com/ Robbie Scott

    “I’m sceptical that Yaqoob embraces the values of the Labour Party (unless you believe the values of Respect and the Labour Party are similar, which I certainly don’t)”.

    Could you flesh that out please how do Labour Values differ from Respect Values? Many Labour voters in Tower Hamlets, Birmingham and Bradford don’t seem to think they do (I’m a party member from Tower Hamlets).  Our policies may be different but I’m interested to hear how you think our values differ.

    We’ve beaten Respect where to coin Ed we’ve ‘learned lessons’ and we tend to respond by doing what community groups were asking for in the first place which has principally been having more BAME representation which is endorsed by the ‘community’ rather than ‘patsy ethnics’ that are perceived to do as they’re told.  I don’t think Respects left wing politics is what wins it elections in the first instance. It tends to be a lack of engagement, which sparks an initial interest.

    I think Salma Yaqoob would make an excellent addition to the Labour party but I think we ought to get out of the habit of supporting defectors at the expense of Labour party members. Few people have picked up a fuss as Liberals who are faced with loosing their council seats have joined the party.  I don’t see the difference really. I think it’s more that Salma comes with a high profile and is left which people will have a problem with.

    • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

      That is ridiculous. Respect are far-left pressure group who operate using wicked campaign tactics including anti-Semitism. They do not have credible policies and are not a party og government and hwat they have done in Bradford and Tower Hamlets is sickening. Yaqoob has led this party and she bears responsibility. She never join Labour, she’d probably join the Greens and they are welcome to her!

      • http://www.robbiescott.com/ Robbie Scott

        So Tower Hamlets, Birmingham and Bradford residents are all stupid  with anti-Semitic far left tendencies? You’ve not answered any of those points I specifically distinguished between values and policies.  Tell me how Respects values differ from those of the Labour party. And then tell me how they continue to win elections. “What they have done in Bradford and Tower Hamlets is sickening” You don’t think the Labour party has any responsibility for any of that? Ed Seems to think we do: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/mar/30/ed-miliband-galloway-bradford-byelection 

        Respect isn’t an anti-Semitic party there are people within it who maybe anti-Semitic   racist etc but that exists in many parties especially our own and if you speak to BAME MPs off the record plenty of them will you that. Furthermore, to suggest Labour doesn’t play dog whistle politics is absurd. In terms of values (which nobody seems to want to talk about on this thread) I’d really like someone tell me how she differs from the Labour party then how they think we share common values with Conservatives and Liberal defectors who were perfectly happy to stay in the LibDem party for the past two years. 

        http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/nov/05/phil-woolas-ejected-parliament-election

        http://stephentall.org/2012/04/07/reading-labour-party-leaflets-born-and-bred-racist-innuendo-will-labour-now-apologise-and-withdraw-it/

        • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

          You clearly have not read what I have said properly, and that first sentence was a completely fatuous point. Firstly, Respect do not have any real values, they are a coalition of radical Muslim extremists and Trotskyist Militants with a few anti-war people in the middle of the party. Their only MP (who also founded them) condones rape, calls disabled people “window lickers”, does not pay his taxes and salutes a dictator who killed thousands of his own people (including trade unionists). In Bradford, Galloway went around telling Muslim voters that Imran Hussain was not a Muslim and said he drank alcohol. In Bethnal Green and Bow, Respect targed Oona King because she was a woman from black and Jewish heritage, and they conducted extremely anti-Semitic attacks on her and her campaign team. If you do not think that it is sickening “low politics”, then I despair? Of course, Labour should not have been complacent in Bradford West and should have engaged with voters, clearly something went badly wrong, but the idea that that is to blame for Respect being morally bankrupt is nonsense. There is a big difference between extremely vile politics and dog whistle politics. Respect are in the latter category and Yaqoob has justified that by allowing it to happen under her watch. If she really shared Labour values, then why on earth would she be out to do damage to the Labour Party?
          Tories and Lib Dems defecting to us, is a badge of honour but the former leader of Respect joining Labour would not only create chaos but it would bring dishonour to the party.

          • http://www.robbiescott.com/ Robbie Scott

            “You clearly have not read what I have said properly, and that first sentence was a completely fatuous point”. 
            I quoted you in context and quoted you directly. ”Firstly, Respect do not have any real values, they are a coalition of radical Muslim extremists and Trotskyist Militants with a few anti-war people in the middle of the party. “ Oh ok. I think most people would see how ridiculous this statement is. I can’t really add anything to it. That said, it’s probably not a coincidence that they have been successful in Tower Hamlets, Birmingham and Bradford. You might want to ask yourself why their message seems to carry traction in these communities. ”In Bradford, Galloway went around telling Muslim voters that Imran Hussain was not a Muslim and said he drank alcohol. In Bethnal Green and Bow, Respect targed Oona King because she was a woman from black and Jewish heritage, and they conducted extremely anti-Semitic attacks on her and her campaign team. If you do not think that it is sickening “low politics”, then I despair? “Just to reiterate that 1) I’m a member in Tower Hamlets and have been active for the past 10 years and 2) Oona King’s electoral campaign was the first MPs campaign I’ve worked on.   The ‘Respect Party’ give people the tools to campaign themselves within their own communities. It’s not ‘Respect the party’ that is anti-Semitic, racist or sexist it’s organisations that existed  before Respect came along.  There’s a difference. Again you may want to ask yourself why the Labour party were happy to use these sorts of ‘community organisations’ previously when as you say they often harbour disturbing prejudices. ”Of course, Labour should not have been complacent in Bradford West and should have engaged with voters, clearly something went badly wrong, but the idea that that is to blame for Respect being morally bankrupt is nonsense.”I didn’t call Labour complacent.  To coin Diane Abbot they were ‘playing divide and rule’ and it backfired. Having ignored the white working class community in all of these areas they became over reliant on one ethnic minority group who rejected their ‘patsy ethnic’ candidate. It really is that simple. I find your logic really odd. If Labour loses a safe seat where the vote ought to be weighed rather than counted whose fault is that? Which party has become out of touch?  ”There is a big difference between extremely vile politics and dog whistle politics. Respect are in the latter category and Yaqoob has justified that by allowing it to happen under her watch”. Maybe for you there is. For me there is no difference between implicit and explicit racism. I have a lot more respect for people in the BNP who will tell you exactly what they think rather than people who are undercurrent racists. ”If she really shared Labour values, then why on earth would she be out to do damage to the Labour Party?”The Labour Party and Labour Values are not synonymous. Privatisation, Illegal wars, the 10p tax mess, tuition fees, etc etc. ”Tories and Lib Dems defecting to us, is a badge of honour but the former leader of Respect joining Labour would not only create chaos but it would bring dishonour to the party”. 

            Well, there you have it … We should be proud that former Tories find their values compatible with those of the Labour Party. 

          • http://twitter.com/waterwards dave stone

            Nail, head, etc. Sorted!

          • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

            I greatly respect the fact you are a longstanding activist in Tower Hamlets. On the coalition point, that was a direct quote from Luke Akehurst, another comrade from the EastEnd. The point I am making about anti-Semitism is that they know full well that anti-Semitism is going on in their party, not the party but many of the people involved are anti-Semites. I am sure you’d agree that what they did to Oona King was disgusting and Salma Yaqoob has led that party. The idea that the Labour Party is racist is quite foolish, in all honesty. Of course the party needs to reach out into BAME communities, but to imply that racism is going on is silly. Labour was complacent and failed to reach out, Galloway and Respect (which Yaqoob has led) have exploited social divisions, racial tensions in order to get what they want. By the way, the fact you can have any respect for a BNP member shocks me hugely.

          • robertcp

            Renie, Oona King lost because she was stupid enough to vote for the war in Iraq. 

  • hgsfc

    If Shaun Woodward is acceptable…

  • http://www.facebook.com/tony.kennedy.5667 Tony Kennedy

    The inherent contradictions in obsolete protest politics built around a charismatic user (‘Gorgeous George’) have inevitably led to this split. It is shame that Salma maintains a ‘somewhere over the rainbow’ view of a perfect ‘correct’ political Party representative of ‘Working People’ when the Labour Party, supported by the wider Trade Union movement, is the best and only vehicle to achieve a good society for all. 
     
    I represent Sparkbrook Ward in Birmingham, won back from Salma’s ‘Respect’ with a mandate to build a bettter future; local people frankly suffered for seven years from the application of ‘transitional demand’ tactics which bore no fruits for the local community who have returned to Labour, such that we secured 86% of the vote at the Council election this year ( the highest in Birmingham), securing all three council seats over the 12 months since I won in 2011.
     
    Our message has been embraced by all communities: only Labour can secure fair improvements for ALL; I trust the people of Bradford will realise this in due course. I am particularly pleased that Jon Cruddas is now leading Labour’s policy review and will address the aspirations of the many decent people who turned to the group in frustration, there is no doubt that many, (especially young) people and those in challenging circumstances found the attraction of ‘magic wand’ politics appealing; it is a lot more difficult to work with all our inherited conditions to build a better and fairer future.

    Roger Godsiff MP wrote to Salma wishing her well with her health, on behalf of Labour, following her resignation from Birmingham City Council last year on health grounds, we trust she enjoys a full recovery. Labour won the subsequent by-election by a large margin and the last remaining Respect councillor joined Labour early this year.

    (cllr) Tony Kennedy

  • http://twitter.com/doktordunc Duncan Hall

    I would be delighted to see Salma join the Labour Party and have seen nothing to suggest she has incompatible values with the Labour Party. Obviously the Labour Party is a broad church – Salma seems immeasurably more Labour than Adonis or Woodward from where I’m standing, but I appreciate it is a broad church and some wouldn’t agree.  I can think of no logic to agreeing to take defecting Tories who have never claimed to be socialist, but not taking socialists.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Homfray/510980099 Mike Homfray

    I like Salma Yaqoob. Politically, she is close to many already part of the Labour party. And given the findings about what was going on in Bradford, we have to look upon that defeat as a wake up call and welcome it for showing us that we were taking people for granted.

    Locally, we have seen LibDems join Labour in Liverpool and Wirral, and in Sefton, a former Tory group leader and parliamentary candidate now sits as a Labour councillor (and is a much more trenchant critic of the current cuts than many who have been with us for longer!)

  • shaunval

    At a time when nationally trust in our politicians is so low, and we have a public that is increasingly disengaged from politics, a political figure like Salma Yaqoob who gained trust and respect from so many people in the local area, surely ought to be embraced into our wide church. I certainly know that there are many different definitions, approaches and analyses around our unique values.  George Galloway was once a succesful Labour politician and I clashed with him on many occasions then.

  • NT86

    I think a defection to the Green party is more likely for Salma Yaqoob than going to Labour given how critical she’s been of the party.  The Shaun Woodward case is far different to this. For a start he wasn’t associated with George Galloway.

    She comes across as more pleasant person than Galloway, but again the chances are she’ll more likely find a home with the Green’s because there’d be too much friction if she joined Labour.

  • Kokopops

    She was offered a couple of safe Labour seats in the West Midlands for the 2010 General Election by Tom Watson and Gordon Brown – Birmingham Edgbaston and one other but she turned them down to remain in Respect as she said she wasn’t ready to come back to Labour.

    Personally would LOVE her to rejoin Labour. She’s an amazing role-model – intelligent, articulate, principled. if Labour can take in someone like Shaun Woodward who was arguing and espousing diametrically opposite views to Labour right before he took a very safe Labour seat for which he has little in common…and then even have him in our Frontbenches, I think we can just about handle Salma and her views, which are in common with many Labour MPs. However I think she might join and perhaps even run as a Green party candidate for Birmingham Sparkbrook/Hall Green against the dubious Roger Godsiff, who will stand down at the next election

    • markfergusonuk

      How can she “rejoin” – she was never a member…

      • Kokopops

        I am not sure if she was a paying-member of the Labour party but she was a Labour voter along with her parents

    • NT86

       Birmingham Edgbaston is a Labour marginal seat now and Gisela Stuart (still an MP) didn’t stand down at the last election.

      • Kokopops

         Sorry I meant Birmingham Ladywood

    • http://twitter.com/RF_McCarthy Roger McCarthy

      ‘She was offered a couple of safe Labour seats in the West Midlands for the 2010 General Election by Tom Watson and Gordon Brown’

      Evidence?

      • Kokopops

         http://www.birminghammail.net/news/top-stories/2011/07/07/controversial-birmingham-councillor-salma-yaqoob-quits-over-health-fears-97319-29008094/

        If you scroll down to:  “Offered safe election seat by labour” then you’ll read it.  If you follow Tom Watson’s twitterfeed, you’ll note his admiration for Salma Yaqoob (whether or not he agrees with her views or not).  For what it’s worth, I think the seats offered were Walsall South and Birmingham Ladywood (sorry NOT Birmngham Edgbaston as I accidently mentioned above)

    • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

      There is no evidence that Roger Godsiff will retire and there is no evidence that she was handed seats by Gordon Brown. Even if it was true, it certainly was not Birmigham Egbaston because they already have a fantastic MP who held us the seat and was campaigning in that seen since 2006 because it was too marginal.
      Woodward was not diametrically opposed. He was for a very long time a centrist who was on the left of the Tory Party, possibly around the same position as Anna Soubry. Joining a social democratic party would not have been that hard a jump and plus, he was loathed by the Tory leadership because of his supportiveness of what Labour was doing.

  • markfergusonuk

    Michael – that’s not what I’m saying.

    • http://twitter.com/Chas_Boz David Arrowsmith

       Actually it is Mark, by the way what Labour values are you talking about as I cannot see what a party without any ideology can have any values that are not just PR.

  • Brumanuensis

    I’ve advocated Salma joining the Party for a while now, in the comments section and whilst I think Mark makes a number of pertinent points, I would still, ceteris paribus, be happy having her on board. She’s always been one of Respect’s genuinely decent representatives and her recent decisions, along with those of Kate Hudson, testify to her integrity. Speaking from Birmingham, she has a good reputation locally as a result of her service as a councillor and had she stayed on this year, Respect would probably not have lost all their council seats to us. Certainly she’s arguably a better local representative than the terminally lazy Roger Godsiff, whose conduct has done harm to the Party in Birmingham.

    All this being said, I think NT86 is right to say she’ll join the Greens.

    • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

      So you would get rid of a Labour MP who may be controversial at times but has been supportive and stuck with the Labour Party through thick and thin (and by the way is a fellow Lewisham boy) and replace him with a woman who was a cheerleader for a prejudiced, misoynist tax-avoider who salutes a mass murdering dictator and is also the same who has led an unglorious coalition full of Islamic extremists and Trotskyist militants who have damaged Labour, damaged communities in Bradford and Bethnal Green, exploited racial tensions in these places and have whipped up anti-Semitism all under her watch. People need to get it out of their head that she shares our values because she does not.

      • Brumanuensis

        You do realise Roger Godsiff called for Blair’s impeachment? There’s not a lot of difference between us politically, I just resent the fact he’s a lazy so-and-so who attends 50% of Parliamentary votes, doesn’t bother to attend any hustings and yet manages to record some of the highest expenses claims of any Parliamentarian. I’d still have voted for him, had I lived in Hall Green - I don’t like Respect, regardless of what I think of Salma – but only grudgingly.

        • http://www.facebook.com/tony.kennedy.5667 Tony Kennedy

          I am Hall Green CLP Secretary as well as Sparkbrook ward councillor, and urge you not to confuse parliamentary ‘bench duty’ with hard work. I can assure you Roger is amongst the very hardest working MPs there could be, he is utterly tenacious and takes up every case, large or small with incredible vigour; his parliamentary nick-name was Dracula not because of his eponymous looks, but because he spends so much time working in the constituency he was only seen at night

          • Brumanuensis

            I’m prepared to take your word as to his constituency work, but he is also supposed to be an MP and if he is not fulfilling that side of his obligations, then he is at fault. I don’t think it’s acceptable to have such a poor attendance record in Parliament, regardless of how hard he is working in his constituency.

          • jaime taurosangastre candelas

            Is there any single Labour MP with a worse attendance record?

            Oh, yes, there is.  See http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/gordon_brown/kirkcaldy_and_cowdenbeath

            The “delicious irony” is that he repeatedly states about his very large fees”It is being held by the Office of Gordon and Sarah Brown for the employment of staff to support my ongoing involvement in public life.”

            Given that he (thankfully) has no involvement in public life, and that the latest news snip from the Office’s blog was two weeks ago (by Sarah Brown), and before that approaching a month ago, and before that on 13th July, you have to wonder what all of these fees are paying for?  And his constituency website is now 6 months dormant, and there are complaints (possibly from non-Labour supporters) that he is effectively completely absent from constituency involvement…

            This is a man who has spoken in precisely one debate in the current parliamentary year, has asked 8 questions, and who has voted in 14.88% of votes.  We all know that we nationally received a shockingly poor performance from Gordon Brown’s time as Chancellor and as PM, but his constituents appear to receive even less service.

            The online expenses published by IPSA seem to have regressed in that they now only go up to 2009/10 (before it was 2010/2011), but he claims considerably more than Alastair Darling, another ex-Chancellor with a Scottish constituency, both using Edinburgh airport for their flights to and from London.  But he was considerably more expensive in that regard as well.  He claims a few hundred thousand pounds a year on top of his salary.

            So do not have too much concern about Roger Godsiff, or more accurately, have even more concern about the bullying monster from Fife.

          • Serbitar

            Before the last general election Gordon Brown stated on television that if he lost both he and his wife Sarah would “probably” devote themselves to supporting good causes and doing some “voluntary work”. 

            Perhaps he’s busy with charitable endeavours.

            Or not as the case may be.

            (Trying to be charitable myself  as it were.)

        • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

          Did he? I also know that he called for immigration to be stopped, critical of some gay rights legislation and is very Eurosceptic. But at the end of the day he is a Labour MP and has not been out to damage the party unlike Respect. Also, I love his eyebrows.

  • AlanGiles

     ”Our message has been embraced by all communities: only Labour can secure fair improvements for ALL;”

    All, Tony?. Will that include the sick and disabled, who were so dreadfully let down when Brown embraced Freud, and is still, more or less, endorsed by Liam Byrne?

    The only way to wash the stain of Freud off of Labour would be for all those involved in it’s implementation and it’s cheerleaders  (especially Byrne and Y. Cooper) to leave the shadow cabinet.

    I am an ex-member, but I will never return while people like that (and one or two others) remain prominent within the party.

    • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

      All you ever write about is your contempt for Tony Blair and Blairites. Without meaning to be offensive, but don’t you have anything better to do than doing that because not only is it irrelevant but it is also quite sad.

      • AlanGiles

         Would you do me the courtesy of not saying “Without meaning to be offensive”, because it is so hypocritical. Of course you mean to be offensive.

        Where did I mention Blair in the above post that has got you so upset?

        • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

          You just attacked Liam Byrne who is a Blairite and you also mentioned the name ‘Tony’. It seems to be your second nature.

          • rekrab

            Tiresome? I remind you that new labour lost the 2010 election and in 2007 new labour lost in Scotland for the first time in 50 years.If you think another bout of new labour and it’s attacks on the working class and the trade union movement  is worth it, I say! think again! Renie, the time is approaching when the labour party must decide on which direction it will take, my hunch is…..if the party goes wayward again, in an opposite direction from it’s core beliefs, then   it we split, fragment, divide and so will the uk.  

          • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

            I am sorry but you forget New Labour won in 1997, 2001 and 2005  mistakes were made but New Labour was a good thing. Explain its attacks on the working class and union movement because that is far from the truth. Ed Miliband has kept Labour on the centre ground and the party is undoubtedly more united than it has ever been in its recent history. If Labour moved to where you presumably want it to be then it will lose big time.

          • rekrab

            You could have put a red rosette on a monkey re-1997 and it would have won.The £3.10 pence minimum wage sent shivers down all workers backs.Ed-Balls slipped up at the TUC conference, once again we have a labour cabinet minister being booed by labour supporters.If labour remains new labour I won’t vote for them. How do you explain that?

          • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

            The idea that a monkey in a red rosette would have won 1997 is risible amongst other things. Just accept that New Labour won elections and where you presumably want Labour to be, i.e 1983, lost us elections. Move with the times.

          • rekrab

            Your having a laugh! two conservative MP’s  jailed, schools falling down, hospitals in a state of shambles, high unemployment, high interest rates, isolated in Europe and hated by the vast majority of voters, yes! indeed a monkey could have won that election, Foot was the first person to describe Thatcher as a loose cannon, who only knew one way but the press hammered Foot for wearing a rather nice jacket, Kinnock didn’t win but Blair threw it all away by making new labour unelectable come 2010 and some 200,000 members short. Renie your a centrist manic, tied to the belief the london and london alone is where the power is, I suggest you think again before you and your ilk really destroy this country .

          • NT86

             In fairness, Labour could have done much worse in 2010. Given the turbulence of Gordon Brown’s final year as PM it should have been an open goal for the Tories to win a big majority. Alas there’s still no appetite for them because no matter the flaws of New Labour, I’d like to think that many more people still remember what the Tories did for 18 years. Cameron failed to gain a majority and is now in this pathetic coalition with a party of soon-to-be-nobodies. With the tide turning on the coalition as well as Tory traditionalist voters turning to UKIP, Cameron’s doing the darndest to lose the next election.

          • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

            Yes, Labour would have lost 1997 if it was like it was in 1983. You are just resenting New Labour and the fact that it was able to win elections. My ilk destroy this country? Perhaps if anything, look closer to home.

          • rekrab

            Jeez! not even Major wanted the bastards to succeed.I’ve been looking in the mirror for a long time now, waiting for that promised government, it never arrived and when Wilson went it kept pushing through a right wing agenda until in the end no one could slip a fag paper between the new labour party and the tory party.What does it all mean, a lost generation of over 40 decades,a nation where the rich grow richer and the poor grow poorer, a nation where only the F****** wealthy can afford to be educated and catered for in health.What are you trying to protect here Renie? are you happy with the slumdown  condition some endure, are you content that those at the top of the triangle get the most.You see, I was born into the values of the labour, only thing thing is it never did what it said on the tin and we’re still painting those matchstack cats and dogs, Lowry knew the feeling all to well, as do most of us but hey ho! I’m still standing and I’m still waiting for that my time to come, while you continue to drift further away for me.

          • AlanGiles

             Both rekrab and myself were more than 1 year old in 1997. Believe me, Labour couild not have lost the 97 election. Even the Tory press were against the Conservatives. Even the Daily Mail advised their readers to vote Labour (look up the archives if you don’t beleive me)

          • robertcp

            Renie, I disagree with you on Blair but agree about Ed Miliband, which is obviously more important in 2012.

          • AlanGiles

             So under your new rules, nobody associated with Blair is allowed to be critisised, whatever harm or wrong they have done, because ths is an insult to Tony Blair personally?

            I see. Well, Blair isn’t dead yet so it’s no good  trying to act like Queen Victoria protecting the memory of her dear Albert.

            I will take no lectures from you as to what I say. I hope I make myself clear.

            Frankly Renie, if people like you are the future of “Labour” we might as well all join the Conservatives and have done with it – why employ a middleman?

      • Serbitar

        This is supposed to be an open forum where men and women are free to express their own opinions, whatever they might be, within reason. Why are you as an ordinary, civilian commentor trying to censor or discourage another person’s opinions? Many of us cannot abide Tony Blair or the parcel of careerists and sycophants, like  Liam Byrne and Yvette Cooper, who rose to undeserved positions of prominence under tin-plated Tony Blair’s patronage. 

        Mark Ferguson moderates this site not you.

        Nor do you speak for the Labour Party.

    • http://www.facebook.com/tony.kennedy.5667 Tony Kennedy

      Whatever your personal purist sentiments, the electors of Sparkbrook have comprehensively rejected Respect and voted Labour. I won the first seat back in 2011 by 1,000 majority, local people want effective representation, Respect achieved nothing in their 7-year control locally and Labour gained 86% of the vote this year. They will do nothing in Bradford , save a bit of protest and posture politics.

      Incidentally, the Libdems were routed in Birmingham, giving even more reason for voters to return to Labour in Bradford as the only way to oust the CONDem government.

      • AlanGiles

         I notice, Tony, (I mean Mr Kennedy, Renie,  not Blair)  you have not one word to say about the gravaman of my reply to you – the betrayal of the weakest in society when Labour embraced Freud.

        Thought not.

      • AlanGiles

         I notice, Tony, (I mean Mr Kennedy, Renie,  not Blair)  you have not one word to say about the gravaman of my reply to you – the betrayal of the weakest in society when Labour embraced Freud.

        Thought not.

      • AlanGiles

         I notice, Tony, (I mean Mr Kennedy, Renie,  not Blair)  you have not one word to say about the gravaman of my reply to you – the betrayal of the weakest in society when Labour embraced Freud.

        Thought not.

      • AlanGiles

         I notice, Tony, (I mean Mr Kennedy, Renie,  not Blair)  you have not one word to say about the gravaman of my reply to you – the betrayal of the weakest in society when Labour embraced Freud.

        Thought not.

  • John Ruddy

    I agree, Mark, and I think we need to draw a distinction between a LIb Dem councillor defecting, and the leader of a party with an MP.

    There is also the fundamental nature of Respect as a party. While many see it as sharing some of our values, it is fundamentally an anti-Labour party. It does not want to defeat the Tories, it wants to supplant US.

    And I think because of that, Salma will not be joining a party she was committed to defeating.

  • http://twitter.com/shibleylondon Dr Shibley Rahman

    I’m sorry, but I disagree with this. I can sympathise with the concerns of this article though. Interesting discussion as ever. But then again I’ve always believed in a rehabilitative rather than retributive approach.

  • http://twitter.com/RF_McCarthy Roger McCarthy

    Also detest Respect and everyone associated with it (and remember that Yaqoob stuck with them even when the SWP and most of the white studenty Trots left).

    But if Labour can accept not one but multiple (I can think of two – were there more?) sitting Tory MPs as members with no questions asked then I can’t see how it could reject her just for having stood and campaigned against Labour.

    In reality she is a communalist politician with a significant local following and such figures do switch party labels with some regularity and will continue to do so as long as they can persuade parties that they have blocs of votes they can deliver.

    Because in the end we have to win elections and use whatever weapons come to hand – and if Ms Yaqoob can help us to win even a single marginal seat then we can and will let bygones be bygones.
     

  • AlanGiles

     Always worth reminding ourselves of the career of Shaun “You rang, sir?” Woodward, especially for those not around at the time:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2001/mar/20/shaunwoodward

    • http://twitter.com/waterwards dave stone

      Certainly he is a very well-to-do chap, having married above his station. But nonetheless, he has gone out of his way to effect progressive interventions and that speaks well of him. So, for me it’s a case of ‘welcome aboard!’ and hope he brings the champers with him…

  • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

    Mark Ferguson is absolutely right. Salma Yaqoob is unfit to be a Labour party member. She is someone who has led another party which was founded out of spite towards Labour by a coalition of Militants and radical Islamic extremists.  She and her party damaged Labour as we have seen in Bradford West and Bethnal Green and Bow, through their whipping up of raical tensions, their dishonest campaigning and their widespread anti-Semitism. This has all gone on under Salma Yaqoob’s watch and it is revolting. She was a cheerleader of George Galloway -  who is after all a prejudiced, misosynist opportunistic tax avoider who is not only profoundly dishonest but even salutes mass murdering dictators – and she failed to expel him from her party instead she has assisted him in causing the utmost damage to Labour! Not only that but she said that the 7/7 bombings were ‘reprisal attacks’. What is progressive about that? Any Labour party member who sympathises with the 7/7 bombings or any terrorist attack should be thrown out of the party, not let it! A Labour Party that did want Salma Yaqoob is not a Labour Party worth electing to Government.

    • http://twitter.com/waterwards dave stone

      Salma has been unequivocal in her condemnation of the 7/7 bombings and of terrorism:

      “I hope and pray that we will never again witness such horror in our country. But we need to do more than hope. Wherever Islam is perverted to justify these crimes Muslims must confront such distortions. In the wake of the 7-7 bombings I helped organise a vigil by British Muslims to honour the victims and condemn the perpetrators, under the slogan ‘Not in Our Name’. And since then, through countless public meetings I have challenged those extremists who would employ dodgy theology to exploit political grievances.”

      • Hugh

        Or rather: “…to exploit political grievances. I would also challenge those who
        continue to put our country’s foreign policy at the service of American
        imperial adventures. As British citizens we need to strongly urge a
        change in course and send a clear message that their actions are ‘Not in
        Our Name’”

        Your extract, I feel, misses something of the essence.

        http://www.salmayaqoob.com/2010/07/remember-77.html

        • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

          Do you justify this comment: “I once commented that the 7-7 bombings were ‘reprisal’ attacks. Of course, we know that they were exactly this, because the terrorists said so.”

          • Brumanuensis

            Hugh was replying to Dave, Renie.

          • Hugh

             Actually I have less problem with that than the fact she obviously sees a moral equivalence between the tube bombers and our armed forces in Iraq; and the fact that on the anniversary of those bombings her true priority is not in fact to unequivocally  condemn terrorism or remember the victims (or just keep quiet) but rather to take the opportunity to again criticise the war in Iraq.

          • Brumanuensis

            I don’t think that comes across at all. Her point was that the July 7th bombings represent a failure of the so-called ‘War on Terror’ to deliver greater security for the UK. You can argue the point, but I find it hard to believe she’s making that sort of analogy, especially when she’s indicated that she’d be happy for her own children to join the Armed Forces.

          • http://twitter.com/waterwards dave stone

            Yes, I remember her on TV – it could have been a Question Time special – she said she’d be proud if her boys served in the British forces.

            My feeling is that she would be a tremendous asset to the Labour Party, though I fear we may lose her to the Greens.

          • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

            I think this a fitting response to that comment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGx3uR_VAVM

          • Hugh

            Her point was, quite plainly, that we should pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan. That is the principal  message in her piece. It’s why she concludes with it.

            As for the moral equivalence, people can judge for themselves whether the carefully balanced repetition of ‘not in our name’ in the final paragraph is accidental or not.

            Furthermore, since she has pointedly refused to applaud a solider awarded the George Cross for throwing himself on a Taliban hand grenade, I’d say it’s pretty obvious she wouldn’t be happy for her children to have served in Iraq or Afghanistan.

            You’re welcome to her.

          • Brumanuensis

            Well you’ve rather shifted the goal posts, as I wrote that she’s happy for her children to serve in the Armed Forces and you then replied by bringing Iraq and Afghanistan into the picture. I’m sure there are plenty of military families who don’t support the Afghan or Iraq Wars either.

            I think it’s a pretty major stretch, frankly, to suggest that ‘not in our name’ is an attempt at moral equivalence. It’s certainly ver far from being ‘obvious’ as you stated in your first post. 

          • Hugh

            “I would encourage my sons to join the armed services and fight for
            their country. My grandfather was in the Merchant Navy so I have no
            problems in people doing their duty when it is justified,” she said.

            http://www.birminghammail.net/news/top-stories/2011/07/07/controversial-birmingham-councillor-salma-yaqoob-quits-over-health-fears-97319-29008094/

            So, yes, in a parallel universe where we had a war going on that she considered “justified” she’d then have no problem with her children joining up. Anyone want to suggest what such a war might look like? I’m struggling.

            And, as I think I was pretty clear, it’s not simply stating ‘not in our name’ that suggests the moral equivalence; it’s repeating exactly the same phrase for both suicide bomb attacks and the British military action. It rather suggests you view the two as equivalent when you make a point of stating that your response is identical.

            But, as I say, people can judge for themselves.

            http://www.salmayaqoob.com/2010/07/remember-77.html

          • Brumanuensis

            The Second World War springs to mind.

          • Hugh

             Actually, I rather doubt she would were she around at the time, but there we go.

          • Brumanuensis

            Are you really saying that we should treat all wars Britain is involved in as justified. I wouldn’t want my children joining up at the moment, but I wouldn’t be against them ever joining up, should the occasion arise.

          • AlanGiles

             Hugh – a great many people – including Right-wing Conservatives -  were against Iraq, and many of all parties and none realised Afghanistan is ill-advised and unwinnable.

          • Hugh

            Very few of them refuse to applaud George Cross winners or head up parties founded by those kicked out of Labour for suggesting our Armed Forces should disobey orders.

          • http://twitter.com/waterwards dave stone

            I gave up long ago with Hugh, for me he’s taken on the presence of a worn out but favourite armchair  - not much use but somehow you’d be sorry to see him go.

          • Hugh

            Oh, don’t say that, Dave; I miss engaging with your arguments. For me they’re like the salad that comes on the side with your steak – watery, limp, lacking in substance and of very little real value, but they do brighten the plate up a bit.

          • http://twitter.com/waterwards dave stone

            Thanks Hugh – as a still competing veteran athlete I can tell you that there ain’t nothing healthier than salad ; )

          • Hugh

             Yes, that was a bit harsh on salad.

            I am glad to hear you’re an athlete, though. I run, so it’s good to know we have at least that in common.

          • http://twitter.com/waterwards dave stone

            ; )

          • Daniel Speight

             Well if they were not reprisal attacks, what were they? Do you really believe these attacks had nothing to do with Britain’s actions in Afghanistan or Iraq? It doesn’t make the attacks or the terrorists right or correct, but it’s extremely hard to find any other reason behind them. Let’s hear your reasoning. I’m willing to be convinced.

      • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

        No she has not. She said that the 7/7 bombings were a “reprisal attack” and then she said: “I once commented that the 7-7 bombings were ‘reprisal’ attacks. Of course, we know that they were exactly this, because the terrorists said so.”
        By the way, your good friend Ed Miliband does not want her.

        • Brumanuensis

          How is describing something as a ‘reprisal attack’ equivalent to sympathising with it?

          The German V-2 rocket attacks on London during the Second World War can accurately be described as ‘reprisal attacks’ in response to British air raids. British air raids on Germany started as reprisal attacks in response to the Blitz. When Soviet troops raped and murdered Germans during their advance west in 1945, they were carrying out reprisal attacks. Describing them as such doesn’t imply that we agree with those actions, only that we are applying a description that matches the intent of the perpetrators.

          • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

            Read what she said again. Explain how on earth you could justify the 7/7 bombings being simply a ‘reprisal attack’ because the “terrorists said so”? Please justify that comment, because I do not know how you can.The difference between 7/7 and the Second World War is that the rocket attacks were during a war, 7/7 was  a terrorist attack.

          • Brumanuensis

            Renie, do you understand what ‘reprisal’ means? As I said above, describing something as a ‘reprisal’ does not mean you are condoning it; it means it is in response to another action or perceived transgression. I think there are good grounds for viewing the bomb attacks of 7th July as a ‘reprisal’, which in no way alters the fact that they were an atrocity.

          • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

            How on earth can you say it was a reprisal attack. Seriously explain how on earth, you could claim that the bombing of innocent people was simply a reprisal attack and that is because terrorists said so. I am sorry but if you are going to defend her that far, then…

  • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

    What is socialist about sympathising with the 7/7 bombings? What is socialist about being an avid cheerleader for a politician who does not pay his taxes? What is socialist about being an avid cheerleader to a man who condones rape and abuse towards the disabled? What is socialist about being an avid cheerleader of a man who salutes a dictator who killed millions of people especially trade unionists? What is socialist about leading a party rife with anti-Semitism and allowing it to continue under your watch? 
    Come off it!

    • Brumanuensis

      Renie, as Dave has pointed out, that’s defamatory. Your other remarks are fair comment, whether or not people choose to agree or disagree with them, but ‘What is socialist about sympathising with the 7/7 bombings?’ is an untrue allegation to make about Salma Yaqoob.

      • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

        She said in July 2010, “I once commented that the 7/7 bombings were ‘reprisal’ attacks. Of course, we know that they were exactly this, because the terrorists said so.”
        If that is not sympathy, I don’t know what is.

        • Brumanuensis

          See my reply further up the thread.

        • robertcp

          Renie, she is not expressing sympathy for the attacks but pointing out that they might not have happened if we had not invaded Iraq.

        • Winston_from_the_Ministry

          It’s not. So you don’t. 

          Fortunately there is a resource for situations such as this. sym·pa·thy  (smp-th)n. pl. sym·pa·thies1.a. A relationship or an affinity between people or things in which whatever affects one correspondingly affects the other.
          b. Mutual understanding or affection arising from this relationship or affinity.2.a. The act or power of sharing the feelings of another.
          b. A feeling or an expression of pity or sorrow for the distress of another; compassion or commiseration. Often used in the plural. See Synonyms at pity.3. Harmonious agreement; accord: He is in sympathy with their beliefs.4. A feeling of loyalty; allegiance. Often used in the plural: His sympathies lie with his family.5. Physiology A relation between parts or organs by which a disease or disorder in one induces an effect in the other.

          • Hugh

            For all that I see the point, one does wonder whether there’d be the same understanding were it stated that the racist abuse directed at Muslims after September 11 (of which I believe she was a victim) were reprisals for that act of terrorism.

          • Winston_from_the_Ministry

            I think that blurs the line slightly between active “organisations” and personal reactions, so while I see your point I think it’s straying into a bit of a grey area.

          • Hugh

             I think that’s exactly the point: using “reprisals” you risk dignifying a small group of murderers and thugs with the same standing accorded to soldiers in an army.

            There’s plenty of organsiations racists can join; it doesn’t make their actions any less reflective of their personal bitterness and prejudice, nor their demands any more worthy of serious reflection.

          • Brumanuensis

            I think ‘reprisals’ would be a pretty good description, but we can agree to disagree.

    • http://twitter.com/Chas_Boz David Arrowsmith

       I would say Salma would regard the murder of over a million Muslims in two wars as being equally reprehensible to your criticisms and I am interested to see you haven’t mentioned this, but apologists for Blair and Israel never do.

  • http://twitter.com/NewhamSue Newham Sue

    Hi Mark, I agree we shouldn’t rush into anything here. I too have hated Respect’s divide and rule approach to community campaigning and have no time for Galloway as a person,
     
    At the same time, though, I think a large part of Respect’s opposition to the Labour (the deep ideological opposition, as opposed to the tribal jostling of election times) is based upon a New Labour many within the party were equally opposed to, one that no longer sums up what Labour represents or the way they organise themselves.
     
    When Respect first came through they summed up the deep unease many in the Labour Party (rightly as it turned out) felt about the handling of the Iraqi conflict as well as supporting tenants of social housing in areas like Tower Hamlets, desperate not to see their estates fall into the hands of housing associations, sacrificing accountability and secure tenancies for a new kitchen and the exploitation/ loss of any surrounding greenspace. These are values totally in keeping with membership of Milliband’s Labour party.
     
    Likewise, Respect’s engagement with the community in Bradford has been acknowledged as one of the drivers for Iain McNicol’s refounding Labour. This being the case, Salma’s knowledge and experience of where Labour went wrong at times, would surely be invaluable. 

  • John Reid

     i Like the fact a few greens have joined laobur recently as they’ve realsied Nucleur pwer is the most Green way of creating energy, I’m sceptical the lieks Of sunny Hundal, Medhi hasan Laurie penny have joined same as rejoijners Andy Newman and Kate Osamor ex of the Socialist workers party, But I really can’t see a place for this woman here,

  • http://twitter.com/NewhamSue Newham Sue

    Hi Mark, I agree we shouldn’t rush into anything here. I too have hated Respect’s divide and rule approach to community campaigning and have no time for Galloway as a person,

    At the same time, though, I think a large part of Respect’s opposition to the Labour (the deep ideological opposition, as opposed to the tribal jostling of election times) is based upon a New Labour many within the party were equally opposed to, one that no longer sums up what Labour represents or the way they organise themselves.

    When Respect first came through they summed up the deep unease many in the Labour Party (rightly as it turned out) felt about the handling of the Iraqi conflict as well as supporting tenants of social housing in areas like Tower Hamlets, desperate not to see their estates fall into the hands of housing associations, sacrificing accountability and secure tenancies for a new kitchen and the exploitation/ loss of any surrounding greenspace. These are values totally in keeping with membership of Milliband’s Labour party.

    Likewise, Respect’s engagement with the community in Bradford has been acknowledged as one of the drivers for Iain McNicol’s refounding Labour. This being the case, Salma’s knowledge and experience of where Labour went wrong at times, would be invaluable. 

  • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

    You’ve also got a good PCC candidate and a good Mayor and deputy leader too!

  • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

    And I do have the right to voice the opinion that what Alan has said is completely irrelevant, which has been echoed by moderators in the past. It does get rather tiresome hearing people like you and Alan attack former Labour Prime Ministers and shadow cabinet ministers.

    • Serbitar

      Speaking personally I only attack people because of their actions. If somebody conducts themselves dishonestly, misuses power entrusted to them, lies, dissembles, deceives, or does even worse things – like sending men and women to die bloody deaths on battlefields or driving to many of Britain’s most vulnerable, sick, and disabled citizens into an early grave -  it doesn’t matter to me what political party such villains are affiliated to and even less what here today, gone tomorrow temporary office of State they occupy or have held historically. 

      It crucially important that people remember all of the wickedness and the good that Labour perpetrated when last in office AND the identities of the men and women who did such things so eagerly and blithely in order to prevent such travesties and horrors from happening again. Such is the viewpoint of many and indulging in vendettas, strops or tantrums won’t change it; if I were you I would stop wasting my time. 

    • DavePostles

       Et Tutu, Brutus?

    • AlanGiles

       ” which has been echoed by moderators in the past.”

      So now you are pretending you are privvy to the thoughts of this site’s moderators?

      Besides, I thought you only joined our happy club just a few weeks ago after the new rules were introduced???.

      I hope that the “Wayback Machine” archives these pages for years to come so that in a decade or so you can look back at the arrogant posturings of the teenage you. Hopefully by then, as most of us discover as we get older, none of us know it all, and you will be rather embarrassed by your outbursts.

  • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

    Clearly rubbish! Walsall South is a marginal seat and also it is her words not anyone in the party’s. She could be have been referring to someone on the party’s left, or John McDonnell when he was standing for the leadership. It is just entirely speculative and nonsentical.

    • Kokopops

      I don’t know if it were those 2 seats but considering the candidates they selected eventually, I presumed it was those two seats. By the way Walsall South has been a Labour seat since 1974, it is only marginal now after the New Labour years.

      During the phone hacking scandal and Tom Watson’s heroic turn in Parliament etc, Salma and Tom had a brief twitter exchange, where it certainly seemed that Tom admired Salma. Furthermore, Salma actually gets a lot of flak from extremists in Birmingham so to be accused to be one herself is ironic….although you’re from Lewisham and what, 16years old too so what would you know about it.

  • http://twitter.com/_DaveTalbot David Talbot

    I’ll be honest. I don’t want anyone who has been in RESPECT to join, or have anything to do with, the Labour party.

    RESPECT are a quixotic mixture of the MAB, the SWP, Galloway and the sychophants who fawn at his feet. Mainstream Labour they are not.

    • Redshift1

      A lot of our members have been members of or have flirted with the communist party, the SWP and other far-left groups in the past, especially in their younger years and then decide later down the line that either these groups aren’t what they thought they were or simply that the Labour party offers a far more effective vehicle for advancing their values. 

      If people decide we are the best party to be in, then why shouldn’t we accept them with open arms in the same way we’ve accepted Lib Dem and even Tory defectors. Arguably they have more in common with us politically.

      • PeterBarnard

        I agree, Redshift … if a sinner truly repents … and we should treat people as individuals.

        • AlanGiles

           I seem to recall Alan Milburn and John Reid (not our John P) had a flirtation with the Communist party in their younger days, yet now if they went any further to the right they would be in the Conservative party (well, they probably are, philosophicaly, if not physically!)

          • Daniel Speight

            And never forget that the sainted Tony Blair while looking for a constituency was happy to call everyone ‘comrade’ according to Shirley Williams.

            Then again Tony could just have been devious and not a really true believer, but we don’t believe that do we children?

          • AlanGiles

             Good morning Daniel. I frankly think that if the salary was good enough, there were some extra chances to make big money – and a job for Mandy as well, of course, Blair would have happily led the Flat Earth Society.

          • http://twitter.com/_DaveTalbot David Talbot

            Ah. So within two posts of mine, we are back to the default references to Milburn, Blunkett, Blair and Co. (no Lord Freud, Alan?)

          • AlanGiles

             David. In case you hadn’t noticed David Freud sold himself to the Conservative party for the very title you give him.

            I merely said Blunkett and Milburn had formerly been left-wingers, which is true (though I can understand upsetting to somebody of your sensibilities!) and of course, you know Blair’s price list for the speeches and personal appearances.

            Don’t shoot the messenger, David

          • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

            I know, it’s ridiculous. They have unhealthy obsession with Blairites, I’m worried!

          • PeterBarnard

            Denis Healey (when he was “young and foolish”) was a member of the CP, Alan, and he eventually landed on the “right” of the Labour Party.

            If I remember correctly, contemporary comments were that he was an excellent Defence Secretary.

          • http://twitter.com/waterwards dave stone

            Alistair Darling was once a Trotsykist member of the International Marxist Group. It all makes me feel even more like the dyed-in-the-wool moderate that I am.

          • http://twitter.com/waterwards dave stone

            On reflection, I suppose you’d have to admit they were a spirited and intellectually adventurous lot.

            The quality of engagement displayed by a significant number of  today’s Labour youth, by comparison, would make a vicar’s tea party seem like an exciting no-holds barred Ibizan rave.

          • PeterBarnard

            Just after the Second World War, Dave, there was a lot of “intellectual adventure” about – including the Conservative Party (R A “Rab” Butler springs to mind).

            And then the Manchester Liberals took over in the late 1970s …

          • Brumanuensis

            They are the future too, Peter, talking to young Tories – the scariest people on the planet, arguably.

          • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

            Agreed (though I have met some nice Young Tories). Best time to talk to them is when they are drunk, it’s hilarious. Talk to Tom Chapman or Cameron Brown on Twitter!

          • AlanGiles

             I think in previous generations politicians thought for themselves, and didn’t automatically toe the party line, because they were interested in ideas and discussion and didn’t regard politics as a cradle to grave “career”.

            This is one of the reason I would like to see more Independent and Green MPs.

            Since Mrs Thatcher we have seen MPs prepared to swallow their principles, or even their instincts, and we had the unsavoury sight of (for example) Conservative MPs voting for rail privatisation even while admitting privately they doubted the wisdom of it.

            In more recent years we have seen Labour MPs back 90 days detention and the Freud report, totally against what Labour once stood for.

            Older MPs with more life experience would be much more preferable in all parties to young yes men and women, who will go out of their way to fawn to whoever they think can advance their careers.

          • http://twitter.com/waterwards dave stone

            Yes, there is something of a plague of careerists.

            My guess is that young people of spirit with political interests will gravitate towards non-party/establishment forms of activism.

            I encountered a large number of well-motivated and highly articulate younger people in the Occupy movement. They were totally compatible with Labour movement values (broadly reformist and expressing concern for humanity), and they attracted visits and approval from internationally regarded specialists such as Paul Krugman and Manuel Castells.

            It was good that Ed recognised their relevance.

  • http://twitter.com/Chas_Boz David Arrowsmith

    Salema Yaqoob supports both Muslims and Socialisms, something Labour has consistently failed to do since 1997.

  • Redshift1

    Hang on. The Tories are a fundamentally anti-Labour Party and so are the Lib Dems. We accept defectors from there with open arms and rightly so. 

    She would be far more of an asset than many of the people we’ve allowed to defect and more importantly, the principle should be that if she believes we are the best party to advance her values, then that’s great. 

  • robertcp

    Salma Yaqoob has always seemed very moderate when I have seen her on TV.  I would like her to be in the same party as me.  I would say the same about Shirley Williams, David Owen, Charles Kennedy and Vince Cable.   Labour should be the party for the left and centre.  The problem with Blairites is that they are on the right. 

  • AlanGiles

     ”I agree, Mark, and I think we need to draw a distinction between a LIb
    Dem councillor defecting, and the leader of a party with an MP.”

    And yet, Labour are smacking their lips at the thought of LibDems, and Greens “seeing sense” and joining Labour?. How many afrticles have appeared on LL these past few months calling on the party to get Greens to join?.  The Greens have an MP (Caroline Lucas, Brighton Pavillion) and there wasn’t a great deal of heart-searching when the leadership allowed Howarth and Woodward to join the party – in both those cases ambitious men who had campaigned against Labour, and were rewarded with ministerial positions very early on in their new party. Ambitious men who had just witnessed their party suffer their worst defeat in living memory!. Overnight these 2 men turned 180 degrees?

    To their credit, a lot of party activists were uncomfortable with that decision, nonetheless I frankly think it is a bit late in the day for Labour (or the LibDems and Conservatives, come to that) to try to be so demure.

    The more I see these expedient double-standards the more I fall out of love with mainstream parties and their games and posturing.

    I doubt Ms Yaqoob would want to join the Labour party as it is currently configured.

  • markfergusonuk

    Where does this million figure come from?

    • Hugh

       Where does “murder” come from?

  • http://www.facebook.com/nathanjm Nathan Joel Morrison

    What the hell is the difference between a former member of respect and somehow who is a Lib Dem? Half of the Lib dems were formed by people who deliberately attempted to supplant the labour party with the SDP.  Personally I say good on her for leaving respect and i’d certainly be happy to have her in my CLP. The Party has taken in utter renegades and careerists from the Tories our natural enemy then why should we not take Yaqoob in, I really don’t see why it’d cause an almighty row.

  • AlanGiles

     Totally agree. I remember one poster on LL (can’t remember who now, of course) once accused me of being a man who “promoted” benefit fraud, and even implied I was guilty of it personally, just because I had the temerity to point out that Labour introduced Freud in 2009, just as unemployment was rising anyway, AFTER Freud had been bought by the Conservatives for a peerage, and the minister concerned had stood down from Parliament a year later following revelations about his expenses.

    If anyone has ever had friends, family or even met with people who have suffered severe distress because of these disgusting reforms, and see their physical and mental condition deteriorate while they battle with ATOS, they will know you can be angry without any personal motive.

    Labour did a great deal of good with the minimum wage, overseas aid etc, but when you consider the wars overseas and the wars on the sick and disabled at home, it rather negates all the good.

  • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

    Patronising drivel based on speculative rubbish. By the way, Walsall South is a marginal due to boundary changes.

  • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

    That is bonkers. She is not a moderate. Blairites on the right? LOL!

    • robertcp

      To be fair Renie, I do not think that you are a Blairite because you are supportive of Ed Miliband.  You might have noticed that most Blairites are very critical of him? 

      On Salma Yaqoob, I am just judging her on Question Time appearances when she did not say anything that I disagreed with.  Maybe I am wrong and she is really a terrorist-supporting Trot!  I have been wrong before, for example, I voted for Tony Blair to be Leader of the Labour Party in 1994.

      • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

        I have not always been supportive of Ed. Many “Blairites” are supportive of him, some in fact voted for him instead of his brother. It is the Brownites if anything, who would stab him in the back.

  • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

    I like Mehdi Hasan and Sunny Hundal. I disagree with them on some things but they are good additions to the party.

  • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

    Are you denying the shocking tactics of Respect which included anti-Semitism and the fact they targeted her because she was a Jewish/black woman. Why didn’t they target Jim Fitzpatrick?

    • http://twitter.com/waterwards dave stone

      They did – Galloway stood against him in 2010.

      • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

        I am referring to 2005 not 2010. The reason he stood against Galloway was a lot of his seat was in the new Poplar and Limehouse seat.

    • robertcp

      Renie, of course, anti-semitism and racism is wrong.  However, she lost because she supported the war in Iraq and not because of her skin colour or religion.

      • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

        I am sorry but you should look at the facts. Galloway targeted Oona King because she was a black/Jewish woman and he allowed anti-Semitism to drive his campaign. As I said, why didn’t he stand next to Fitzpatrick or Timms?

        • robertcp

          I do not know or care.  Being a black Jewish woman was not an issue  for her in 1997 and 2001. Labour lost votes to Lib Dems as well in that election because of Iraq. 

          • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

            I was not talking about Iraq, I was concentrating on Respect’s decision to target Oona King. The reason why her race was not an issue in ’01 or ’97 was because Respect did not exist!

        • robertcp

          My response below is actually wrong.  King’s race was an issue in 1997 and Labour’s vote fell.  It increased in 2001, so by 2005 her Jewishness probably would not have been an issue if it had not been for Iraq.

          • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

            Respect targeted Oona King because of her race as well as the demographic of her seat. That is an undeniable fact, why are you defending it?

          • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

            Respect targeted Oona King because of her race as well as the demographic of her seat. That is an undeniable fact, why are you defending it?

    • robertcp

      Renie, I give up!  I accept that Respect are anti-semitic racists who targeted Oona King because she was a Jewish/black woman.  But, and it is a big but, she would not have lost a safe Labour seat if she had been a Jewish/black woman that had not supported the war in Iraq.  More than a hundred Labour backbenchers did not support the war, so it was an option.

      • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

        More than a hundred? Are you sure. Why didn’t Galloway target all those MPs? He chose Oona King because she was a black/Jewish woman with a good ministerial prospect in front of her, standing in a seat he did not know anything about other than it had loads of Muslims and was somewhere in London. That is the end of the matter.

        • robertcp

          Renie, 122 Labour MPs voted against the Iraq war in the first vote and that increased to 139 Labour MPs in the second vote.  Robin Cook and John Denham resigned.  Denham later became a Cabinet minister, which shows that voting against the Iraq war was actually a good career move. 

          Everything you say about that election in 2005 is probably right but Oona King would still be the MP  if she had not voted for the war.   You are also probably  right that she would have become a minister. 

      • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

        More than a hundred? Are you sure. Why didn’t Galloway target all those MPs? He chose Oona King because she was a black/Jewish woman with a good ministerial prospect in front of her, standing in a seat he did not know anything about other than it had loads of Muslims and was somewhere in London. That is the end of the matter.

    • robertcp

      Renie, I give up!  I accept that Respect are anti-semitic racists who targeted Oona King because she was a Jewish/black woman.  But, and it is a big but, she would not have lost a safe Labour seat if she had been a Jewish/black woman that had not supported the war in Iraq.  More than a hundred Labour backbenchers did not support the war, so it was an option.

    • robertcp

      Renie, I give up!  I accept that Respect are anti-semitic racists who targeted Oona King because she was a Jewish/black woman.  But, and it is a big but, she would not have lost a safe Labour seat if she had been a Jewish/black woman that had not supported the war in Iraq.  More than a hundred Labour backbenchers did not support the war, so it was an option.

  • Jeremy_Preece

    Interesting set of thoughts Mark, although you are proabaly correct that Yaqoob in the Labour fold might be somewhat far fetched. Your enemy’s enemy is not necessarily your friend. I also would think that looking at it from her perspective, she would have to be very sure that the bulk of those that have voted Respect so far, are also out of love with Galloway. After all, I imagine that double crossing Respect could be very bad for your health in a free to walk the streets kind of way.

    You are also right though about people changing, although people changing their allegancies more than once will always be suspected of opportunism. In the end though nothing surprises me. I remember back in the 1970′s doing A level sociology and comming across “Conflict Theorist” Marxists who I still don’t agree with. I smile when I think about the teacher requiring us to read Ralph Milliband (one of the angry ones), and can only imagine what real hard left fanatics any children of his would turn into. 

  • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

    Well I doubt Ed Miliband and I agree with you.

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