A Unit-Ed Kingdom?

June 7, 2012 9:36 am

This morning at the Royal Festival Hall (symbolism), in a speech sandwiched between the Jubilee (symbolism), the European Football Championships (symbolism) and the Olympics (über symbolism) Ed Miliband will speak on the subject of Englishness, that most maligned, ignored and misunderstood of identities.

Even Ed Miliband would admit that he is not the closest match to the traditional conception of Englishness (as he’ll put it in his speech today “you could say my family has not sat under the same oak tree for the last 500 years”). A North London raised son of Marxist intellectual immigrants is always going to be running up hill to try and establish his nationalistic, patriotic credentials. Yet as we’ve seen this weekend, the British people will happily take the descendants of immigrants to their hearts and proclaim them the very essence of Britishness. The Milibands and the Windsors are very different families of course – but one day the former could write a speech delivered by the latter.

But we’re getting ahead of ourselves.

Not least because this kind of flag waving/wearing doesn’t sit easily with the Labour Party, despite the efforts of some (including Jon Cruddas, Maurice Glasman and others who no doubt influenced today’s speech) to change that mentality.

We’ve seen Labour leaders wrap themselves in the flag before…Gordon Brown, perhaps nervous about how a Scottish PM would play in the Home Counties came out with the disastrous “British Jobs for British Workers” that still makes so many in the party shudder. He also claimed that he was supporting England in international football matches – an implausible premise for any true Scottish football fan, but one necessary for a Scottish PM to argue nonetheless.

Ah yes. Football. The politician’s favourite go to place for patriotism, with the added advantage of it sounding authentic, working class and incredibly masculine – only the first of which descriptors are currently applied to Miliband. And yet, when he talks about supporting Leeds (with the bookish nerdery which recalls not only a former treasury wonk but also a true fan) he also says something about the conflicted identity of modern Englishness, the clash between North and South and the search for a “tribe”.

And perhaps the conception of Englishness and Britishness is a North and South issue. Miliband calls the debate about whether people are Scottish or British a “false choice”. Yet I’ve always gone out of my way to describe myself as British, rather than English, and have done so for as long as I can remember.

Because growing up in the North East, “English” always seemed like shorthand for “Southern” (an idea reinforced every time the England football squad was announced). It was cream tea and cricket and Windsor Castle. I didn’t feel like I had any claim to “Englishness”. I felt excluded from it because what I felt it described was so far removed from my life as to bear no comparison.

British though was different. British was inclusive. All of us. Together. Different but the same, a unity of disparate people and cultures and customs. I was allowed to be British – encouraged – and I was as important to British identity as anyone else. I could never say the same for being English. If Scotland leaves the union and Britain disintegrates then my country and my national identity will cease to exist. For me, that matters. For some others (who Miliband will attack today) it’s unimportant.

And that really is at the heart of what Ed Miliband will need to overcome with his speech today. Because for some people being English, or Scottish, or Welsh or British, goes to the very heart of their being. It defines them. And yet for others, it’s almost an irrelevance. The words they use to describe their identity don’t matter to them. Straddling the gulf between them is a huge task.

At present there is no safe middle ground when it comes to identity. Ed Miliband trying to build it.

Good luck to him.

He’ll need it.

  • Leon

    Why does patriotism make so many in the party uneasy? Why does ‘British Jobs for British Workers’ upset people in the party? I am a Labour Party member precisely because I am a patriot, and I want to live in a Britain with the values that Labour represents – which I believe are the best of British values. Sometimes, people in this party make me sick with their arrogance towards ordinary British people. We are not the party that is supposed to look down on others, just because they have a strong national identity. 

    It’s like people in the Labour Party sometimes need educating about the concept of a national government. We are a British political party, and therefore, slogans like British Jobs for British Workers represent precisely what we should be trying to achieve. What’s the alternative? British jobs for foreign workers? Unfortunately, because of the total disregard for British people during Labour, many see Labour as pushing that last slogan – and you are reinforcing it with articles like this. 

    • http://twitter.com/robertsjonathan Jonathan Roberts

      Leon, I’m sending you a big electronic man-hug. Spot on.

    • http://twitter.com/mistyblulabour dave stone

      “Why does ‘British Jobs for British Workers’ upset people in the party?”

      Might be because it’s an unworkable fantasy. Would you also want to close down a large section of UK manufacturing because many components aren’t manufactured by British workers? And you’d have to prepare for retaliatory measures: when millions of UK citizens who work/live abroad are compelled to return.

      • John Dore

        It goes further than that. It kills our competitiveness. We have a significant sector of society who wont work and as a result migrants travel thousands of miles to find work here and work damn hard. When an employer is faced with a British person or an immigrant they vote with their feet.

        In many situations if they didn’t take the immigrant they would be out of business. We all know this but because we’re Labour we don’t want to talk about it. 

        Well the key to the 2015 election success is precisely what Leon suggests he wants “Became a real national party, representing the people of this country with an inclusive patriotism.” To me that means the people of the land know what it means to be a part of our great land. Employers who treat workers well, looking after your young sick, elderly and workers who work. Make the feckless work. I want to see the world standard in Education, skills and training, that is our future. I dont want to see a load of private sector companies getting paid millions getting people to work for free either.

        For me I don’t think the party is steering in this direction. Its to busy looking inward.

        • treborc1

           your not fecking Labour mate

          • John Dore

            Really, and why is that then?

            Oh so more Labour than I person?

          • Brumanuensis

            I’ve never once seen you post anything left-wing. If you want to be the forum conservative, fine, but don’t pretend to be something you’re not . 

          • John Dore

            Because I’m not left wing. Most people who vote for the party aren’t either. They consider themselves normal people from all walks of life. I consider my opinions are normal. A good caring society that looks after the people of the country. Labour is a party that gave us the welfare state and the NHS and proper education QED I am a Labour supporter.

            Left wing is a concept for politico’s. It’s meaningless in todays world as is the word socialism. The country doesn’t own the means of production.

          • UKAzeri

            “The country doesn’t own the means of production.” spot on !! the rich do…. not the country .. not the 99 % …

            you seriously need to revist the term leftwing !!! i am not trolling.. you are genuinly right of centre in other words New Labour not Labour!!

          • John Dore

            You can pidgeon hole me as much as you want. old Labour, New Labour, Guy etc. I dont care particularly.

          • AlanGiles

            It is a great pity Mr Dore you don’t go to Labour Uncut, whose right wing view of the world, by the two PR boys who run it when they are not trying to keep their little company “Fifth Column” (how appropriate!) afloat with seven eight/nine year old testimonials, would be much more to your taste, and your strange idea of “Labour” would be more appreciated.

            I find I am looking at this site less and less because every day there is more of your outpourings (with frequent mention of the word “cr*p”), and you feel it perfectly alright to insult those of us with more traditional Labour values, at the same time as decrying any robust repsonse to your right wing favourites. Double standards, Mr “Doe”

          • John Dore

            Your choice, you sound like a little school boy.

          • treborc1

             kettle pot

          • AlanGiles

            Well down to your usual standard, “Dore”

            Stop pretending you are a “Labour” supporter. It is getting as tedious as your constant repetition of the word “feckless”. You seem as limited in your insults as you are in your use of English

          • treborc1

             Tory mate your a Tory

          • John Dore

            Call me whatever floats your very small and totally insignificant boat.

          • Dave Postles
          • Brumanuensis

            It’s a strange sort of Labour supporter who implies that left-wing individuals are abnormal. Were Atlee, Bevan and Morrison all abnormal then?

          • John Dore

            Right people, right time, right result.

        • UKAzeri

          I am a first generation asylum seeker. When my family moved here we were desperate and prepared to work hard and far beyond reasonableness. Before you get that little red book that gives you absolute freedom – you have no rights (one can be deported for anything), so you put your head down and work –LIKE A SLAVE. You are happy to live in crap conditions ( spent first 7 years in Britain sharing 1 bedroom flat with my dad, mum and brother) anything goes!! Anything – all for a chance to become a citizen. You are suggesting that British workers are lazy because they have standards and want reasonable conditions of employment? You are praising employers who exploit this to maximise their profits ( I stress maximise NOT MAKE)?
           
          And I second treborc1! You are not labour!! “We have a significant sector of society who wont work” – if you want to be Labour then stop reading the Daily Mail and particularly their BS. Part of being on the left ( if not the main part) is to apply reason based on actual evidence rather than emotion based on what extremely rich want you to think!!!

          • UKAzeri

            actually first generation asylem seeker doesnt make sense  :) why would a seocnd generation apply for asylum again  ..

            first generation immigrant probably makes more sense ! :)

          • treborc1

            I think we all know what Mr Bore is.

          • John Dore

            Come on tell me, call me more names. You show others the calibre of your thought, what an intellectual colossus you are. You are an example to us all.

          • treborc1

            yes, thanks.

          • John Dore

            I wont be lectured by you and I don’t read the Daily Heil either. I use my own eyes and see for myself what is going on. Your post is ignorant for you put words in my mouth.  I did not say that British workers are lazy because they have standards and want reasonable conditions of employment. That is what the trade Union movement was started for and I support that. I did not praise employers who exploit this to maximise their profits, I defend employers who employ hard working people  in a fair exchange of labour for good pay.

            Please feel free to second treborc1, I’ll categorise you in the same name calling nonsense brigade. You do not decide if I am Labour or not, you don’t have the authority. You fail to recognise that the party is fully aware of the benefits culture and the internal war between the left who prefer to accept it and others who prefer to deal with it as a major issue facing the country.I am not on the left, that’s a label for people who like it. It does not suit me as I am a free man capable of my own thought. You think you talk for the people, but you haven’t the first clue about how to help people. Its a broad church, not your little world.

          • UKAzeri

            Ok .. then explain what you mean by this statement, taking into account that you dont read the Mail and that you use your “own eyes” and see for yourself – ”
            We have a significant sector of society who wont work” .. I am quite amused .. your eyes must be unique….

            The truth is that you along with many in Britain ( this I don’t deny) have been duped by the right wing media, who bring  a handful of examples to justify a class a hatred. Pay lip service to unions all you like but Blairites need to understand that this time round they will not privatise our values !!!

          • AlanGiles

            I don’t think “Dore” is even a Blairite. He comes over as a sort of Alf Garnett – a working class Tory who veres dangerously close to fascism – everyone who doesn’t think like he does is a “schoolboy” or a “fool”.

            If he was to spread as much bile and contempt for the Conservatives as he does for people to his left he might have some purpose on LL. As it is, he is that pathetic creature who pretends to be a member of a party  where he considers himself to be “better” than his colleagues.

            His support for “Labour” is very  dubious,  and it is to be regretted that he only sees the very real problems of this country down to “feckless” working class people and not where the blame really lies – amongst the bankers and political elite, who he considers his “betters”.

          • Hugh

            First, his eyes aren’t that unique since, as you admit yourself, his views are shared by many in Britain.

            Second, wouldn’t it be helpful to those duped by the media to link to the  evidence that’s convinced you  they are wrong that a significant number could work but choose not to.

    • treborc1

       Why because the BNP came out with it, and then Brown gave the contracts which he stated would be for British people to a German company and a Dutch company not a British company because according to Brown we could not do it anymore, it’s like asking France to build power stations because we in the UK have forgotten how to do it.

    • Brumanuensis

      How about jobs full stop? I’ll vote for that.

      BJBW was just a lazy attempt to pander to the tabloids and gave the impression that unemployment was the fault of ‘immigrants’.

  • Redshift

    I identify as a northerner and to a far lesser extent as British. English is something I do during football tournaments and nothing else – the rest of the time, like you say, it strikes me so much more as a shorthand for southern. 

    • PaulHalsall

      I identify as English, British, Mancunian – in that order.  I don’t feel anything especially connecting me with Leeds or Newcastle more than say Birmingham, although I wish them all well.

  • Leon

    For many in this country, Labour would be the perfect political party if it took the following actions. 1. Purged from its ranks those champagne socialists, internationalists, who look down on others for expressing their British identity. 2. Became a real national party, representing the people of this country with an inclusive patriotism. 

    • PeterJukes

      You mean become kind of national socialist?

      • John Dore

        I don’t think he does.

    • AlanGiles

      I suspect Ed Miliband’s speech today is an indication that Jon Cruddas’s influence is starting to come through, as English Nationalism has long been one of his ideas.

      I really feel though, that the Scots should be free to choose their own future for themselves. It ill-becomes anyone to tell another country how they should vote, and it can be counterproductive: remember when we wanted the USA to vote for Al Gore – the advice wasn’t appreciated by the Americans, just as Cameron’s support for Sarkosy didn’t auger well.

  • http://twitter.com/mistyblulabour dave stone

    ” “English” always seemed like shorthand for “Southern” ”

    I’m a northerner by upbringing but the situation is the reverse for me. I’ve always thought of ‘Britishness’ as the property of blazered union jack waving, establishment fuddy-duddies – and always associated with imperialism.

    Englishness, on the other hand, is more localised and nuanced, and more up for grabs – this means it can be more easily appropriated by ordinary people as their own. This is important as most of us are heartily sick of the top-down entitlement bollox emanating from the elite.

    • John Dore

      “This is important as many of us are heartily sick of the top-down entitlement bollox emanating from the elite.”
      This is my issue with the left, they are too busy thinking about what others have, what they should have as opposed to what they can achieve. A total waste of energy.

      I have a minor but obvious disability, it does not get in the way. I spend my time looking at what is possible, nothing else. This is what we should be teaching our kids, what is possible.

      • http://twitter.com/mistyblulabour dave stone

        But you have to be realistic about the capabilities of those at the top table – as Ed said of Cameron and his Downton Abbey cronies: “they act like they’re born to rule, but turn out not to be very good at it.”

        • John Dore

          and Ed is right. This is looking at the whole picture.

  • Mackem

    Totally wrong on Labour being incompatible with patriotism but spot on about the identification of Englishness with southerness and I’ll add that it is this identification that Salmond is implicitly exploiting.

  • treborc1

    This speech is about Labour keeping Scotland within the United Kingdom, because if Scotland does get Independence then labour will lose a lot of voters, a lot of MP’s.

    • John Ruddy

      How many times do I have to tell you, it wont make any difference? Labour got a majority of MPs in England in 1997, 2001 and 2005.

      • John Dore

        I don’t know the stats, please can you post them? I would have thought we got a majority in Scotland and Wales. If you add a majority in England Surley that means a win?

      • John Dore

        Just looked them up for England 9assuming the Wiki article is right). John you are massively wrong.

        297 Tory

        193 Labour

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_MPs_for_English_constituencies_2010%E2%80%93 

        • John Dore

          Nope I am wrong you were referring to the old days and I was looking at 2010. 

          The point is that we can win a majority in England if we have try.

      • treborc1

        yes but a lot of Tories saw Blair as a follow on from Thatcher and they came to labour, they have gone now.

        I suspect labour will need every voter it can get to win in 2015

  • Lee Butcher

    Moderate nationalism is a necessary thing for a country, it keeps
    it together.

    But the dangers and inadequacies of ‘nationalism’ are well established, hence
    the scepticism from the left. It can mutate from a celebration of a particular
    people and their culture into excluding ‘rival’ cultures and promoting
    division.

    Not to mention that national identity is in fact entirely invented by the
    dominant media and cultural narrative – promoted by those with the means (i.e.
    cash) to promote a certain image of that identity. It is that critique which prominent
    among the left. 

    There is nothing wrong with ’nationalism’ that is both inclusive and realistic, that can support individual local identities. However division and mindless jingoism is always worth avoiding.

    • John Dore

      Lee a very good post. If you frame nationalism in a way that serves its people, that I believe is the answer. “We are British and this is what we believe in is the answer.”

  • robertcp

    I am both British and Welsh.  I also have ancestors from Lancashire, Somerset, Devon and Birmingham.  This may partly explain why I cannot speak Welsh. 

    The Scots are almost certain to stay in the UK but even if they do not my identity will not change.  I live in the British Isles on the island called Great Britain.  The same applies to citizens of the Republic of Ireland.

    Labour should be patriotic about Britain but not nationalistic.  Britishness should be inclusive and include the four nations and minorities.  Brown’s comment about British jobs for British workers was at best silly.

  • Graham Galloway

    The NE (and Cumbria) have more in common culturally with Scotland south of the Firth-Clyde line than the Home Counties. This is not surprising as there have been many centuries of cross migration. Northumbrian/Geordie/Durham dialects share many words with Lallans. Perhaps the Northern English Counties should apply to join Scotland? They could hardly be worse off than they have always been under Tory administrations.

    • John Ruddy

      Its not just that. Its that large parts of southern Scotland were actually part of the Kingdom of Northumbria.

      Why do you think English is the language in Scotland, rather than the gaelic imported by irish immigrants and conquerors?

    • RB

      Looked it up. I think I am from Mercia. This is getting silly.

  • retundario

    >>>the disastrous “British Jobs for British Workers” that still makes so many in the party shudder.>>>

    God what is wrong with you people. Why the hell are you people in politics if the thought of British people gaining employment makes you “shudder”?!

    Just please go away. You’re disgusting. 

    • treborc1

      Because we did not get the job the Germans and the Dutch did.

    • Brumanuensis

      Because it sounded like a BNP slogan and gave the impression that the path to lower unemployment was anti-immigrant policies.

      ‘Just please go away. You’re disgusting’.

      It’s a Labour website and you’re perfectly free to jog on. 

      • Bill Lockhart

         How then was unlimited immigration of unskilled people under Labour “the path to lower unemployment”?

        • Brumanuensis

          What is this, ‘lump of labour fallacy’ o’clock?

          http://www.niesr.ac.uk/pdf/090112_163827.pdf

          • retundario

            a) “lump of labour” may be a fallacy, but that doesn’t mean that the precise inverse is true – that the number of jobs will increase evermore alongside immigration, with no effect on unemployment rates. There is a middle-ground
            b) Clearly, employers have favoured immigrants from poorer countries for low-skilled jobs, because they are better workers/more-easily exploited. This may not effect unemployment stats, but has an effect culturally/socially.
             
            But “Labour” supporters (i.e. sociopathic middle-class freaks) like to ignore all this, because they are obsessed with their status, which they feel they can best maintain by sounding all fluffy and nice, and “not like the BNP”. Bores.
             
            You don’t get this brand of idiocy in other countries.

          • John Dore

            That was brilliant.

          • Brumanuensis

            Point A is straw-man. Point B is too anecdotal to discuss without better evidence.

            I’m not a sociopath btw, I’m histrionic. 

          • treborc1

            I worked for Balfours as a supervisor and I cannot for the life of me say one group of people are better workers. I know if I made a mistake in doing something the British workers would say excuse me your six inches out the pipe has to be this low or this deep. While the others people  be they Irish or Polish would just dig lay the pipe and move on.

            But to say Polish people work harder for me is pure rubbish.

          • John Dore

            The BRITISH managers who choose to employ Eastern Europeans do it for a reason. Consistently they say that it is because they work harder and are more reliable. 

            We have a large class of people who don’t want to work / do the bare minimum. They are not working class because work is an anathema to them.

          • http://twitter.com/mistyblulabour dave stone

            “We have a large class of people who don’t want to work”

            Why did you employ four of them?

          • John Dore

            Quality dave, can rely on you to add err add err …….its not value and I’m struggling to think of something.

          • Bill Lockhart

             There is no evidence in your link or elsewhere that the unlimited immigration of unskilled workers under Labour led to lower unemployment in the UK. There is evidence that it led to the lowering of wages for unskilled British people.

          • Bill Lockhart

             And a left-wing think tank run by Brown’s former chief economic advisor hardly counts as independent unbiased research.

          • Brumanuensis

            Stump up the evidence Bil, although if it’s Migration Watch, I might get a bit stroppy. 

            Jonathan Portes worked under Lawson, Major and Lamont. In fact, he was Lamont’s speechwriter between 1991 and 1992. Not a sign of a die-hard left-winger. As for describing NIESR as left-wing, Portes’s predecessor Martin Weale was supportive of the government’s deficit reduction programme and NIESR is a respected organisation with a broad range of research to its credit and a reputation going back over 60 years. 

            If you go back to my original post, I said anti-immigrant policies would not lead to lower unemployment. I did not say that higher immigration necessarily lead to lower unemployment.

      • retundario

        >>>Because it sounded like a BNP slogan>>>

        oh well then.  Not sounding like the BNP should always be a major political party’s most important consideration of course. Defining yourself in opposition to other points-of-view to the exclusion of reason is just so intelligent and open-minded. Petty little Labour-ite bigots.

        >>>that the path to lower unemployment was anti-immigrant policies.>>>

        Yes and protesting some kind of allegiance to the interests of British labour is just too “anti-immigrant” for the average “Labour” supporter obviously. What about the interests of the Hungarian electrician?? Who’s going to stand up for him. Real idiots you lot.

        • Brumanuensis

          “Defining yourself in opposition to other points-of-view to the exclusion of reason is just so intelligent and open-minded”.

          I rather hope people do define themselves in opposition to fascism.

          “Yes and protesting some kind of allegiance to the interests of British labour is just too “anti-immigrant” for the average “Labour” supporter obviously. What about the interests of the Hungarian electrician?? Who’s going to stand up for him. Real idiots you lot”.

          Well if he works and lives here, and pays his taxes, why not?  

          • Bill Lockhart

             Because he makes it even easier for Governments to fail to educate British children to a level at which they would be able to do the work that the Hungarian is currently doing, that’s why not.

          • Brumanuensis

            If the effect of immigration is to deprive low-income earners of low-skilled jobs, then what connection does that have with education levels? 

  • retundario

    “British jobs for Polish workers!”

    Sick left-wing freaks.

    • treborc1

       You will be leaving now will you.

  • http://twitter.com/tristanpw1 TristanPriceWilliams

    Wasn’t it Johnson who said that patriotism was the last refuse of the scoundrel? More so than ever now that religion has ceased to pull people together in any meaningful, widespread way.

    You can see how Cameron has used the Jubilee, and will use the Olympics for political purposes. So far the Jubilee went pretty well, except for the unfortunate use of slave labour, and entertaining of murdering tyrants at Windsor Castle and Clarence House, both council houses! But it has pushed Warsi and hunt off the front pages for a while.

    Your average Brit has shown little interest in these matters, however,  preferring to occupy their minds with what Kate Middleton was wearing and whether or not she was pregnant (she probably won’t be until the referendum on Scottish independence), what the Queen was wearing and how old Charlie looked, and wouldn’t William make a better King!!! In Scotland we were just happy to have a day off, and disappointed that there was nothing on the telly and it rained.

    The Olympics may not be such a success for Cameron. Closed roads and the necessity to “remode”, just like Justine Greening and Francis Maude, heavy fines for contravention of Olympic laws, etc, etc, may put a rather different complexion on the whole thing. Still Cameron will want us all to be proud to be British. (He’ll have an uphill struggle with me, as he would with anything he wanted me to be.) Still he will try, and Johnson will be proved right, because the word ‘scoundrel’ is probably the least offensive term I would use to describe him.

    Of course, if Scotland does become independent then the United Kingdom will not disintegrate. Wales shows no real interest in being a separate country; their nationalist party just wants Cardiff to control most things instead of London. Northern Ireland, at least for a while, continues to be more staunchly British than anywhere else. So all you will have lost is Scotland, and as Boris and so many other commentators point out, it is  a country full of drunken scroungers, who stagger between the pub and the betting shop and live off English taxes… so no loss there.

    I think stressing English identity is a good thing; as it is with Scottish, Welsh, Irish, Cornish, Manx, etc. Of course there is a huge difference in how you see that depending on your financial state, your place and level of education, and your geographic location. I salute Ed Miliband for taking this subject on.

    • Brumanuensis

      Johnson was not attacking patriotism, but people who used patriotic sentiment to excuse their misbehaviour. 

  • Bill Lockhart

    Here’s how it goes:

    I am a proud, progressive nationalist
    You are a flag-waving Little Englander
    He is a racist.

    • Brumanuensis

      Do elaborate, Bill.

    • Luther

      Cryptic and unintelligible to the rational mind. Is this a Zen koan?

    • Luther

      Cryptic and unintelligible to the rational mind. Is this a Zen koan?

  • ThePurpleBooker

    It is genuinely annoying to see these hard-left people, some even a bit more moderate than that, trying to make a false distinction between patriotism and Labour.

    • treborc1

      Hard left, from an ex bloody liberal deserter.

  • Brumanuensis

    I’ve always considered myself British, having lived abroad for a long time. I don’t feel any great bond with ‘England’, although for sporting occasions I’m an England fan. I would describe myself as English and I’m not ‘ashamed’ of England, but as a political project, ‘Englishness’ doesn’t do anything for me. 

    I yield to few people in my loathing of petty nationalists though. 

  • Brumanuensis

    Also, everyone should bear in mind Orwell’s distinction between ‘patriotism’ (love of one’s country) and ‘nationalism’ (Deutschland uber alles).

    An important distinction, in that patriotism is generally benign, whilst nationalism leads to fascism and imperialism, if unchecked.

    • retundario

      “Deutchland uber alles” is a reference to the previously disparate ownership of the land that now constitutes Deutschland. It doesn’t mean Germany over all other nation states, it means fielty to Germany over fielty to Bavaria, Saxony etcetera

      • Brumanuensis

        A fair point and well made. But the sentiment has become so contaminated by the Nazis, that it’s lost to any other context now.

  • PeterJukes

    I have the same problems with identifying myself as English as you do, Mark. English is my first and favourite language. I support the English football team. I was born in England.  But I’m not very English – always identified as other in my north London school. Are you Indian? Are you Jewish (No, my mother – brought up by a hyper English family – was adopted at  6 weeks from an Armenian refugee). Of all my friends, a small handful are pure English. Most of them have Irish, Welsh, Scottish, Polish, Indian roots somewhere along the line.

    Englishness  as it stands, because it has no state, is an ethnic identity. I’m proud of my mixed ethnicity, and glad to be British because it’s about citizenship, not identity.

    If England becomes a state, I might consider joining it. On the other, if that happens, London may secede – and I know which side I’m on there. Passionate Londoner. Always have been 

  • Alexwilliamz

    O so missing the point. Listening to Ed on PM was painful, he came across as patronising and almost insulting at times (without realising it or intending it) he was so desperate not to alienate anyone. The problem is that if you tie yourself to a particular set of values you will inevitably alienate someone, if you believe in it stick to your guns, if you don;t do you really believe it. The bottom line is I am sure I can list lots of different attribute I’d consider to be English, but non of these are particularly exclusive, in fact on many fronts they would probably be identical to attributes for Britishness. The reason is that we should be clear in holding up these values as what it means to be English/British but recognise that what is distinctive is not that they are in anyway exclusive to us but the common story by which we arrived at them. In this way we can be inclusive with regard to the common values we look to everyone to ‘buy into’, while retaining a distinctive uniqueness in how we got here, and more positively how other influences can flavour this over time.

    This historical aspect is the reason why I believe a lot of the nationalism around at the moment is nonsensical when it attempts to define some kind of distincive identitiy. Sorry its been 300 years for the Scots and longer for the welsh and Northern irish to some extent that we have been part of the UK. As such we have formed a symbiotic identity and trying to divide these ‘values’ or identities in some kind of ‘national character’ turf war is bogus. A call for devolution of powers from London on the other hand is a different phenomena which has many valid claims, the fact that nationalists have high jacked this is having detrimental affects on regions within the UK across all of its constituent ‘kingdoms’.

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