Why Pakistanis should be angry as everyone else with what happened in Rotherham

27th August, 2014 8:26 am

The exposé of child sexual abuse in Rotherham over 16 years reads more like a horror story than an academic report. It was more than a dossier on how girls (and a few boys) were abused by gangs of men; it was also a damning indictment of multiple cover-ups at a senior institutional level. The details simply beggar belief.

police

This isn’t the first time either. Nearly ten years ago there were similar reports of institutional failure in Keighley involving the abuse of young girls, and I had to argue against sections of the Asian media so a Channel 4 film could be aired to shed more light on the problem. The importance of helping victims and dealing with their injustices should always take precedence over worries of racism.

But it’s immensely frustrating that when these incidents come to light, people use them to score political points and push their prejudices than understand what happened. Pakistanis should be as angry with what happened as everyone else.

  1. It was a Pakistani – Nazir Afzal – who made the convictions happen. As chief crown prosecutor for the North West, he was not only responsible for bringing the perpetrators to trial, but re-opened the case after watching police testimony. Without him this could have been buried for much longer.
  1. Across Yorkshire and elsewhere, Pakistani girls have been targeted by gangs too. A report last year also found that gangs had raped Asian (many Muslim) girls along with white girls, but the abuse of Asian girls was being missed because of a focus on white victims. Turning this into a narrative of ‘Pakistani men preying on young white girls’ completely ignores all the victims outside that narrative.
  1. Yesterday’s report found that councillors did not bother engaging with Pakistanis directly to address the issue (pg 2), that there was too much reliance on “traditional community leaders” and the voices of Pakistani women were generally ignored. There was also an unwillingness among Pakistanis to accept that Pakistani girls were also being abused (disproved by recent reports).
  1. In the report, one local Pakistani women’s group described how Pakistani-heritage girls were targeted by taxi drivers and on occasion by older men lying in wait outside school gates at dinner times and after school. They also cited cases in Rotherham where Pakistani landlords had befriended Pakistani women and girls on their own for purposes of sex, then passed on their name to other men who had then contacted them for sex. The women and girls feared reporting such incidents to the Police because it would affect their future marriage prospects (11.14).
  1. It also found that some local councillors had demanded social workers reveal the whereabouts of Pakistani victims of domestic violence, or recommend reconciliation rather than supporting the women to make up their own minds (11.8). This is astonishing and has been entirely ignored in the media coverage.
  1. Of course, most of the perpetrators were men of Pakistani heritage. That in itself demands debate and discussion. But the report quoted one senior officer as suggesting that some influential Pakistani-heritage councillors in Rotherham had acted as barriers to open dialogue of the issue.
  1. The accusation that authorities didn’t tackle child sex abuse because of political correctness is entirely misleading and give them a free pass. It ignores the fact that council leaders barely made themselves aware of the problem (13.3), the police weren’t focused on it (13.13) and that social care managers “seemed reluctant to accept the extent of the problem” (13.14).
  1. Neither is there specific evidence that political correctness stopped police work. The report specifically states (11.6): “[Dr Heal] also reported in 2006 that young people in Rotherham believed at that time that the Police dared not act against Asian youths for fear of allegations of racism. This perception was echoed at the present time by some young people we met during the Inquiry, but was not supported by specific examples.” – this point is echoed in several other areas. Authorities were unsure on how to speak about the issue, but political correctness didn’t stop them from taking action (after they finally woke from their slumber). That is a crucial difference.

It is ridiculous to imply that British Pakistanis should police their own community and take responsibility as a group. No one blamed the entire BBC when the Jimmy Savile cover-up was exposed; no one asked middle-aged white men to take responsibility for the cover-up of Savile, Rolf Harris and others. Pakistanis were also sometimes afraid of saying anything to the police in case of reprisals from gangs, as the report states.

There is certainly a problem here but its not about race or religion – it is about misogyny and a desire to subjugate women. Such attitudes – prevalent among Pakistani men, Asian men more broadly, and among men of other races – need to be challenged. As the report states quite starkly, “across the UK the greatest numbers of perpetrators of CSE are white men.” And this problem includes men who only get exercised about sexual abuse when they can push their prejudices about race or religion about others. The men preyed on these girls because they were weak or because they were physically or mentally intimidated, not because of the colour of their skin.

The irrevocable damage done to children is too important an issue to be turned into point-scoring about political correctness, because everyone  – including those of Pakistani heritage – were patronised, ignored and badly let down by elected councillors and the police.

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  • RWP

    What’s the Pakistani aspect got to do with anything? Is the implication that it is men of Pakistani origin who are behind this abuse?

    • Aileen Cheetham

      In a word “YES” followed by “mostly”.

      • CD13

        If say two families in an area caused say 30% of the crime in the area, the defence by the author of this article would be that 70% was caused by all the many other families. I doubt if the magistrate would be sympathetic.

        I understand why some people don’t like to admit this … the extremists will seize upon it for their own ends. But is evasion and a refusal to face facts a better option?

        • reformist lickspittle

          Yes, but as we can see from this thread people WILL seize on this for their own dishonest ends.

          They must not be allowed to get away with it.

          • RegisteredHere

            You should read the thread on ConservativeHome (that I can’t post a link to).

      • itbeso

        Try almost entirely in the the many many cities it has occurred in the Uk. In other EU countries the rape gangs (they are suffering exactly the epidemic as the UK) are composed of Muslim men of different ethnicity, depending where the resident muslim population hails from. Moroccan, Somalian, Turkish rape gangs etc but all ‘mostly’ Muslim. 90% of our Muslim population is from Pakistan and this, quite simply, is why we have Pakistani gangs. This is a religious (religion being a function of culture) problem lets make no mistake, as least not anymore. Using the phrase ‘Asian’ men is grossly disengenuous of the MSM as is making ring fencing it as a damage limitation excercise and calling it a ‘mirpuri’ issue. It isn’t it is a big as Islam.

    • FMcGonigal

      YES in a majority of cases considered by the inquiry team but the overall picture is more complicated. Have a look at the report.

      http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/downloads/file/1407/independent_inquiry_cse_in_rotherham

    • Tokyo Nambu

      Yes.

  • CD13

    It’s been shocking and it’s a tragedy for all concerned but the arguments now appear to centre around whether the “investigation” was inhibited by fears of being seen as racist, or to protect people with influence, or just general incompetence.

    There’s some evidence for all three.

    • reformist lickspittle

      Can’t have sensible posts like this on here, you know.

      “LABOUR -EEEEEEVIL!!!!!! ALL MUSLIMS-EEEEEEVIL!!!!! PUBLIC SECTOR – EEEEEEVIL!!!! MILIBAND – EEEEEVIL!!!!” is the ONLY acceptable response, it seems. Rational analysis is out of the window.

    • Lamia

      One thing that (not surprisingly) doesn’t tally is the way that officials at the top like Shaun Wright are insisting that they knew little or nothing about this, while at the other end of the ladder social workers have supposedly claimed that they were told to keep quiet because of orders from on high. it’s pretty obvious that a fair number of people are lying.

      It appears that we are supposed to shrug and conclude, “Well, I suppose we’ll never know whose fault it really was.” But although it would require massive effort, it ought to be possible to methodically track through cases – many of them, at least, if perhaps not all – and find out who was in charge of which case, which staff or police officers were involved at those times, what processes were followed – or not followed, etcetera. It may require plea-bargains and/or amnesties for public employees informing on each other, but it is necessary.

      I think it also needs another police force to come in and conduct the investigation. SYP are obviously up to their necks in it.

      • gunnerbear

        Is it time for SYP to be dissolved?

        • Lamia

          Well, I’ve seen it suggested that it should be, and its jurisdiction partioned between neighbouring forces. It certainly needs a very significant ‘intervention’. I don’t think ‘lessons have been learnt’ will do.

  • girlguide

    The ex Labour MP banged up for fraud. Labour councillors caught with their hands in the till and charged with corruption. Local people aware and disgusted with the grooming of children by Pakistani men, but in spite of complaints nothing done about it – and still not done. 1,400 children, yes children, raped – and many more of course than the number given. Does the Labour Party not wonder why Rotherham turned out for UKIP? I believe, and most people in Rotherham believe, that many Labour councillors knew about this abuse and turned a blind eye because they didn’t want to upset Pakistani voters. Did some of them actively deflect the police from investigating?

    I am sickened that the rights of women have been given a low importance versus the fear of upsetting a section of the community. There needs to be a more thorough investigation. If anyone believes that this abuse has now ended, I suggest the take the time to visit Rotherham and see with their own eyes what is happening.

    1,400 young girls raped, tortured, abused and how many convictions – five. That means that there are a hell of a lot of rapists walking the streets of Rotherham.

    • treborc1

      Not only rapist but people who knew this was happening and may well have said nothing to not annoy communities and voters, the question is now who knew about it and did nothing they are just as guilty as the animals who committed these crimes.

      People in power who knew about this and did nothing and I’ve no doubt many in the task of looking after these children knew about it , and did nothing, and the only reason I can see why this would be allowed would be the PC groups within politics looking at votes.

      Disciplining these people internally is not good enough, these people have to be sacked and then prosecuted.

      • reformist lickspittle

        “the only reason that I can see”

        You aren’t looking very hard, then.

        • treborc1

          Looking is one think proving it another.

    • Doug Smith

      No surprise if UKIP win Rotherham in 2015.

      The rot started with Blair.

      If Blair can get away with complicity in the deaths of 100,000s of innocent people there should be no surprise if lesser potentates assume they shouldn’t be held to account.

    • PoundInYourPocket

      This has nothing to do with “Political Correctness”, to quote the report:
      ““we found no evidence of children’s social care staff being influenced
      by concerns about the ethnic origins of suspected perpetrators when
      dealing with individual child protection cases, including CSE””

      • Hugh

        “Within the Council, we found no evidence of children’s social care staff being influenced by concerns about the ethnic origins of suspected perpetrators when dealing with individual child protection cases, including CSE. In the broader organisational context, however, there was a widespread perception that messages conveyed by some senior people in the Council and also the Police, were to ‘downplay’ the ethnic dimensions of CSE.
        Unsurprisingly, frontline staff appeared to be confused as to what they were supposed to say and do and what would be interpreted as ‘racist’.”

        • gunnerbear

          Sorry Hugh, missed your comment!

      • gunnerbear

        That’s not entirely true is it…..“In the broader organisational context, however, there was a widespread perception that messages conveyed by some senior people in the Council and also the Police, were to ‘downplay’ the ethnic dimensions of CSE.Unsurprisingly, frontline staff appeared to be confused as to what they were supposed to say and do and what would be interpreted as ‘racist’.”

      • Lamia

        You are selectively quoting the report. The care staff may not have been influenced by concerns about the ethnic origins of the suspects, but people higher up in the council evidently were, because as the report goes on to say:

        “In the broader organisational context, however, there was a widespread perception that messages conveyed by some senior people in the Council and also the Police, were to ‘downplay’ the ethnic dimensions of CSE.

        Unsurprisingly, frontline staff appeared to be confused as to what they were supposed to say and do and what would be interpreted as ‘racist’.”

        That is precisely Political Correctness, in this case causing inaction and/or concealment of crime that damaged hundreds of young lives.

        • PoundInYourPocket

          No – your making the assumption that fears over political correctness led to inaction. There’s no suggestion of that in the report. In fact it says quite clearly
          “Within the Council, we found no evidence of children’s social care staff being influenced by concerns about the ethnic origins of suspected perpetrators when dealing with individual child protection cases, including CSE.” and
          “The Inquiry team was confident that ethnic issues did not influence professional decision-making in individual cases.”
          There’s a difference between staff being concerned about raising issues of ethnicity and staff being hindered in their duty by concerns over ethnicity. I see no evidence in the report of the latter. There was negligence and inaction but not due to fears over political correctness, as far as I can tell from reading the report.

          • Lamia

            Once again you are deliberately and dishonestly refusing to read what comes directly after the text you quote. I and another poster have quoted to you text from the report that evidently you are too partisan to allow your eyes to read. It is precisely because of callous PC bigots like yourself like you ‘seeing no evidence’ that hundreds of girls were raped with no action taken against their abusers. You really are repellent, and part of the problem.

          • PoundInYourPocket

            You clearly haven’t read my posts properly or the Jay report.
            Nowhere in the report does it attribute political correctness as the primary or even secondary cause of these events. I have debated this in full with another poster so I won’t repeat it all again. I also find your response both ignorant and offensive. I want to see this issue investigated in full so the causes can be brought out into daylight and learnt from. Censure and prosecutions should follow as well. To suggest I am “a callous PC bigot” and “repellent” is just trolling and does nothing to bring out the truths behind these cases. Whilst fears over political correctness did according to the report cause staff some concerns when raising issues , the report makes it crystal clear that it did not affect professional judgement. To repeat the report:
            “Within the Council, we found no evidence of children’s social care staff being influenced by concerns about the ethnic origins of suspected perpetrators when dealing with individual child protection cases, including CSE.” and
            “The Inquiry team was confident that ethnic issues did not influence professional decision-making in individual cases.”

  • Steve Stubbs

    So we now have yet another report, this time even more authoritative. What is going to be done about it? Who is taking responsibility for pursuing those who sat back and covered up? Where’s the CPS in this? As ‘girlguide’ says above, there must be a hell of a lot of guilty people still walking the streets of Rotherham. The report’s author said on breakfast TV this morning that a number of those involved are still in positions of authority, and in other local authorities as well.

    Who is going to clean the stables?

    • FMcGonigal

      There need to be some high profile resignations starting with the Police and Crime Commissioner Shaun Wright. He was the cabinet member responsible for children’s services in the town from 2005 to 2010.

      Ed Miliband needs to speak out.

      • girlguide

        Ed Milliband needs to speak out because exactly the same thing is going on in his own constituency.

        Let us not forget how serious this is – by remembering Laura Wilson from Rotherham, who was groomed, abused and brutally murdered in Rotherham.

        Why is the Labour Party ignoring this issue? Labour cannot care about my rights as a woman, when its elected representatives ignore the rights and freedoms of young women and girls in towns like Rotherham.

        • reformist lickspittle

          “exactly the same is happening in his own constituency”

          Evidence?

          • girlguide

            I suppose you would have wanted evidence if the same comment had been made about Rotherham a year ago. How often do you visit Doncaster? I’m there regularly.

            Are you aware that there is wide scale sexual abuse of the same nature in Bradford, and has been for some time? Perhaps in light of the ‘revelations’ which have been public knowledge for some time, the police in Bradford should also start to investigate properly?

          • reformist lickspittle

            No, that dodgy things have been going on in Rotherham has been obvious for some time (even if the scale wasn’t)

            If there *is* evidence of this in Doncaster, Bradford or anywhere else – then yes it should be investigated thoroughly. There is no reason not to – but sweeping condemnations of entire groups (whether Muslims, Pakistanis, the Labour party or public sector workers) are not going to help things – and frankly suggest that the user has other, rather more sinister, agendas.

          • Tokyo Nambu

            “If there *is* evidence of this in Doncaster, Bradford or anywhere else – then yes it should be investigated thoroughly.”

            I suspect the problem is that there isn’t solid evidence, but there is (a) rumour (b) some cases which may or may not be indicative of a wider problem and (c) the same levels of incompetence. Especially in Doncaster, where the failings of the child protection organisation are a matter of record.

            All over the country, child services are going to be panicing that they might be next. That’s partly a good thing (complacency is never nice) but mostly a bad thing, because people in a panic do stupid things.

      • Tokyo Nambu

        “Ed Miliband needs to speak out.”

        With all those postal votes from the Pakistani community to think of? And all those public sector workers’ votes? He’d sooner gouge his eyes out. The Labour PCC who was responsible for children’s services in Rotherham has refused to take any responsibility, and Miliband is a coward who won’t do what needs to be done (which is to expel him from the party).

    • ColinAdkins

      A few expulsions needed.

      • reformist lickspittle

        Yes.

        The party in Rotherham is a cesspool that needs draining. Now.

        • Tokyo Nambu

          Well, that worked, didn’t it? Labour shot its bolt, Wright waved two fingers, here we all are.

          So, let’s ask the key question. Wright was a councillor in charge of the child protection portfolio who had resigned in disgrace when the beginnings of this scandal started to happen. He was also on the police scrutiny committee, when police failings were already seen as part of the problem that had led to child services failing. In what world, therefore, did anyone in Labour think he was the best qualified candidate as PCC?

  • markmyword49

    I listened to the response by the new leader of Rotherham council on Today this morning. Jaw dropping stupidity comes to mind. He hadn’t the slightest idea how to answer the quite simple questions put to him.
    The Labour PCC for South Yorkshire is still in place as I type this. Why? He was in charge of Child Services in Rotherham for years whilst this abuse happened.
    I understand that the vast majority of abuse against women and children is NOT carried out by gangs but is within the family. However, when these types of cases come into the public domain it is normally in Labour controlled authorities or regions. Given the number that have been reported over the past decade you’d have thought that councillors and officers of the councils would be more vigilant and quicker to pass their suspicions to the police to be investigated. In turn you’d have thought the police would not be dismissing the suspicions out of hand.
    Sadly I expect that we’ll be saying the same things again when the next incident occurs.

    • ColinAdkins

      A bureaucrat seeking to hang on for dear life.

      • reformist lickspittle

        Labour have called for him to quit, but they can’t make him.

        I think it might happen once the initial furore has settled, though.

  • DDG

    Well there goes another large number of votes to UKIP never to return. Relations with Muslims in UK take another blow. Labour Party shows itself to be weak, cowardly and without principle.

    Time for Seema Malhotra MP the first Shadow Minister for Preventing Violence Against Women and Girls to tell us about the failings in the Labour Party and what she intends to do about them keeping in mind Labour’s attachment to decentralisation of powers to local councils..

    • Tokyo Nambu

      “Time for Seema Malhotra MP the first Shadow Minister for Preventing Violence Against Women and Girls”

      to say something, anything, on the topic.

  • Tokyo Nambu

    Good to see that the Labour PCC who was the councillor in charge of children’s services in Rotherham in the relevant period is refusing to resign. There’s a man of principle. Still, with the salary he’s “earning”, who can blame him?

    • reformist lickspittle

      She was talking about it last night on Newsnight, but nice try.

      Do you have any real interest in the topic, or are just obsessed with smearing the ENTIRE Labour party, and its leader, at any price?

      • Tokyo Nambu

        I watched her on Newsnight, as I’m sure you did.

        She didn’t call for Wright’s resignation.

        She has now done so, shortly after this piece was put up.

        • reformist lickspittle

          Yes, a matter of hours later. How shocking.

          Champion has a long standing and widely attested record of interest in child welfare issues (her previous job, for a start) so I would beware of smearing her in a cavalier manner.

  • Lamia

    The accusation that authorities didn’t tackle child sex abuse
    because of political correctness is entirely misleading and give them a
    free pass. It ignores the fact that council leaders barely made
    themselves aware of the problem (13.3), the police weren’t focused on it
    (13.13) and that social care managers “seemed reluctant to accept the
    extent of the problem” (13.14).

    It is not giving them a free pass, and you are settling on the fact of inaction and ignoring the reasons why there was such determined inaction. Political correctness and fear of being tarred ‘racist’ or ‘Islamophobic’ clearly figured high in the reasons. The report itself found this.

    The fact that you don’t wish something to be so does not magically make it stop being so. You make some good points here, and you are absolutely right to raise the issue of the abuse of Pakistani-heritage girls also, but you still have your head partially buried in the sand, Sunny, because you can’t face up to a central finding of the report – namely that PC attitudes in a Labour authority massively enabled the industrial scale abuse of white girls.

    Today, Labour supporters should be hanging their heads in shame and seriously reflecting on what their party and its ‘community cohesion at all costs’ credo have actually cost thousands of human beings, not huffily protesting at being criticised. You deserve to be criticised. You ought to be criticising yourselves and listening to your critics, if you really are serious about wanting to ensure that this does not happen again. Please start now.

    • reformist lickspittle

      That is a fair and rational post, even though I might quibble with it in parts.

      Just shows that, even on this emotive topic, it can be done.

      Others here might usefully take note.

      • girlguide

        You ask people to be unemotional when we learn that 1,400 girls from one town in the UK have been raped, sexually abused and, linked to this, a young woman murdered?

        I certainly feel emotional about walking through the streets of a town, knowing that it harbours rapists who have not been brought to justice, politicians and police who pretend not to be aware, and worse, and that there are a thousand plus, and probably more, young women who are traumatised by horrific experiences.

        • reformist lickspittle

          No, people can be emotional. Angry, even.

          But they should also be RATIONAL.

    • BenM_Kent

      “Today, Labour supporters should be hanging their heads in shame and seriously reflecting on what their party and its ‘community cohesion at all costs’ credo have actually cost thousands of human beings, not huffily protesting at being criticised”

      A truly idiotic sentence.

      Get off your high horse you sanctimonious twerp.

      • Lamia

        No argument there, just the dogged insistence that Labour loyalty takes priority over 1,400 abused teenage girls.

        I haven’t enabled and helped covered up mass rape, torture and intimidation. The Labour Party in Rotherham has. Deal with it.

        • RegisteredHere

          Yes agreed, but I’m not sure that it’s wise to ignore the police involvement or the implications for the CSA inquiry in Westminster. Labour supporters may well hang their heads in shame, but so should a great many other Establishment figures and supporters because by all accounts abuse appears to be a common denominator.

          • Lamia

            I absolutely agree – both about the police and other parts of the political spectrum and society. No one of any political persuasion should be rubbing their hands about this, anymore than they should be feeling affronted by the backlash. It’s a bad and deep and wide problem.

          • treborc1

            From Saville to all the others to some Asians who seem to think abuse and rape is acceptable to the police and the councilors and councils who rather not take action for what ever reason and politicians who see no evil, hear no evil while they are in power.

          • RegisteredHere

            Spot on. It’s a shame that the only parties with a chance of making government next year are all implicated up to their grubby necks.

    • Ben Sorin

      Lamia – you are correct the report found that some frontline practitioners were worried about seeming to be racist in identifying suspected pakistani perpertrators in Rotherham. However it also identifies that frontline organisations did identify the abuse and this was then either ignored or discredited by senior officials – reasons for this are unclear but it seems probable that they didn’t want a big scandal on their patch on their watch and therefore took cowardly decisions which left young people to be abused. You are surely wrong to conflate this with ‘political correctness’ in a tabliodesque way. Being worried about unduly stereotyping and stigmatising entire communities is a good thing, especially when the far right were and are trying to mobilise around idenitfying particular minority groups as being ‘paedophile’ en masse. There is no logical link between that legitimate sentiment and a failure to act against child sexual exploitation by whomever it is that is doing it. Incompetence and cowardice were behind the failure to act, no political correctness as far as I can see

    • PoundInYourPocket

      To quote the report:
      ““we found no evidence of children’s social care staff being influenced
      by concerns about the ethnic origins of suspected perpetrators when
      dealing with individual child protection cases, including CSE”

      • WorthSayingAgain

        So if 1,400 Asian muslim girls in one town had been raped by white men then ………. what exactly?

        • PoundInYourPocket

          If 93% of the population were Asian, that wouldn’t be so unusual would it ? Remember that in this case asian girls were also victims and are included in that 1400 tally.

          • WorthSayingAgain

            How many? What you’ll notice is that the Asian muslim pedophile rapists rape their own daughters and then as many infidel girls as they can. This is entirely culturally acceptable within Islam. So if there’s ten Asian muslim pedophile rapists then there’ll be several Asian muslim victims plus many dozens of British victims.

          • PoundInYourPocket

            Vote UKIP

          • Lamia

            But 93% of the population of Rotherham are not Asian, are they? It’s only 8%. Why on earth are you obfuscating about the facts of this matter?

        • Nah.

          There is a question.I suspect the pakistani muslims would take to rioting and attacking the establishment at the indignation and afront to there culture and faith,where as there leaders should be just as outraged at these evil pondlife and finWd who they are.With the objective of naming and shaming these
          once human beings and publickly denounce them from there faith.I believe that if there top religeous leaders where to openly do everything in there power to help these victims it would show the country there is decency and good in that faith and community.But that wont happen and it is another symbolic nail in the coffin from an outraged public against that faith and ideology.What does it matter some will reason they where only white girls.

      • Hugh

        To complete that quote:

        “…child protection cases, including CSE . In the broader organisational context, however, there was a widespread
        perception that messages conveyed by some senior people in the Council
        and also the Police, were to ‘downplay’ the ethnic dimensions of CSE.
        Unsurprisingly,
        frontline staff appeared to be confused as to what they were supposed
        to say and do and what would be interpreted as ‘racist’.”

        • PoundInYourPocket

          “perception” being the key word there. Not a reality but a “perception”.

          • Hugh

            That’s not the key word at all and, like you’re original selective quoting, disingenuous. It’s described as a “perception” because the authors are reporting what they were told by those who heard the messages; it’s not claiming they were wrong. Otherwise how do you explain the following sentences, the first of which begins “Unsurprisingly” (and that is a key word) and the second of which states “From a political perspective, the approach of avoiding public discussion of the issues was ill judged.”

            Elsewhere the report also notes, “Several councillors interviewed believed that by opening up these issues they could be ‘giving oxygen’ to racist perspectives that might in turn attract extremist political groups and threaten community cohesion.”

          • PoundInYourPocket

            You seem to be looking in the report for what you wish to find. Anything that supports your agenda. My reading of the report is that overwhelmingly the key issue was the failure of S.Yorks police to take action. Not councillors fear of being “racist”. Time and time again the poice did not take action, that’s the issue that for me jumps out of the report. Yet reading these blogs it seems as though “political correctness” has somehow become the prime cause. Very odd.

          • Hugh

            “You seem to be looking in the report for what you wish to find. Anything that supports your agenda.”

            That’s a bit rich coming from someone who quoted one sentence of a paragraph to entirely alter its import. No, I don’t think polictial correctness was the primary cause; nor, though, is it “nothing to do with it” – quite plainly.

          • gunnerbear

            Budget Cuts? Labour were in power all the time in R’ham and from 1997 to 2010. The Labour Party in R’ham are up to their dirty filthy necks in it – they helped cover it up over the years. Like it or not, the abuse was conducted by non-whites and concerns about ethnic votes and PC nonsense stopped those who should have acted from acting hard and fast.

          • PoundInYourPocket

            “Several councillors interviewed believed that by opening up these issues they could be ‘giving oxygen’ to racist perspectives that might in turn attract extremist political groups and threaten community cohesion.”
            They were correct in holding that belief, it is exactly what has happened as can be seen in all the gutter press headlines and many of the posts on this site, However that genuine concern was just a concern and not a reason for supressing any action. It is also not the main issue. the main issue is that S. Yorks police did not investigate or prosecute as they should have, and that was not due to fears over political correctness , it was due to a number of factors such as their attitude towards those that were being abused and their focus on meeting other targets.

  • driver56

    Ed Milliband needs to go into Rotherham and sort out the councilors immediately. The council should be suspended and a team put to ro run the council until this investigation is over.I would hope the Tories would take the same action. no excuses, swing the axe where it needs to be and show that Labour won’t tolerate this type of behaviour from anyone.

    • DDG

      Suspending the Council can only be done by central government. Miliband should support that action. Miliband’s job is to purge the party of all with any share of responsibility.

  • David Lindsay

    Spot the Asian: Keith Joseph, Rhodes Boyson, Michael Havers, Jimmy Savile, Rolf Harris, Laurens van der Post, Cyril Smith, Peter Righton, Peter Morrison, or their dear friend, protectress, and in Joseph’s case even protégée, Margaret Thatcher.

    I’ll give you a clue. It’s a trick question.

    Most of the victims in Rotherham were not Asian, either. If the view of the social workers was that it was culturally normal and acceptable for them to be engaging in “consensual” sex from the age of 11, then that was not because these children’s culture was Asian, or Muslim, or what have you. It was not. Today’s report makes it clear that it would have been culturally impossible for any more than a handful of Asian or Muslim girls to have been victimised in this way.

    Regular readers of my website, and readers of the more recent of my books to date, will have known for some years that it was long routine, not least in the Thatcher period, for training in such professions to include induction into the view that at least post-pubescent childhood sexual activity with adults was normal, natural, and beneficial to both or all parties.

    The 1970s Radical Right was as keen on the abolition of the age of consent as it was on the repeal of the drug laws, among other legislation for public protection such as rent controls, or the rights of trade unions, or the pre-1986 restrictions on the City of London, or the powers of local government, or the public ownership of key amenities.

    Or, indeed, the immigration controls to all of which Boris Johnson is so opposed, and which used to be exercised by the requirement of a union card for employment.

    That hostility was all of a piece. It still is. Now as then, nothing can justify any part of it that cannot logically justify and require any and all of the others.

    • Ben Sorin

      David Lindsay. Re your last paragraph. What professions are you talking about? Can you point me to any evidence to support this claim?

      • David Lindsay

        My last paragraph?

        • Lamia

          Please say it really is.

    • Lamia

      “Jimmy Savile” – obviously a different Jimmy Savile to the Jimmy Savile whom you declared – on your own blog and in the face of the evidence – must be innocent of child abuse… because he was a Northerner and a Roman Catholic.

      • David Lindsay

        You’ll have to do better than that, luv. Don’t believe everything, or indeed anything, that has been anywhere near Oliver Kamm or Damian Thompson.

  • Bretwalda

    So in a nutshell Sunny it was not the fault of Pakistani Muslim men, or their religion, or their culture; it was the fault of the police and councillors that they didn’t stop the Pakinstani men from giving into their overwhelming urge to rape schoolgirls and pass them around their own sick friends. I also notice you and Kevin Macguire of the Daily Mirror both rely on the sentence “across the UK the greatest numbers of perpetrators of CSE are white men.” as some kind of PC dodge. That’s absolute numbers, do the research Sunny, in population percentage terms it is not true and follows similar figures from Sweden and Norway.

  • You can never, ever claim to be anti-racism again. When white people stood with you, it was in the belief you were sincere. You aren’t. You’re only interested in advancing the self-interest of people of the same ethnic background as yourself.

    And the comment that the Pakistani men who raped these girls were ‘let down’ is the most disgusting thing I have ever seen.

    • Sleazy Boat on the Bayou

      “And the comment that the Pakistani men who raped these girls were ‘let down’ is the most disgusting thing I have ever seen.”

      I think that’s an uncharitable reading to say the least.

    • Matthew Blott

      Sunny Hundal didn’t say that at all.

  • Lamia

    Should we be building a new climate of fear by reversing the fear of being racist by being racist?

    False dichotomy, and straw man.

    • Jo Milford

      Then I shall rephrase: So many of the comments below express anger at what they perceive as political correctness gone too far. As a community, we shouldn’t respond against the desire to be equal, but rather we should root the misapprehension of what constitutes racism and what does not at an operative level. Failing to investigate a large number of ongoing rapes on the basis that one may be perceived to be racist is not an exercise in equality. In fact, it is the reverse.

      We should focus on the failings of misapprehension, which I suspect has become the whipping boy of these proceedings masking a wider dysfunction of inaction & twisted attitudes towards rape (including date rape & domestic violence against women AND men).

      • Lamia

        Failing to investigate a large number of ongoing rapes on the basis that one may be perceived to be racist is not an exercise in equality. In fact, it is the reverse.

        Question-begging – you are presupposing that PC multiculturalism genuinely equates to ‘equality’. The argument of the critics of PC multiculturalism is that in actual practice it very often it does not, and that racism, bigotry and oppression by some minority groups towards other groups is tolerated, excused or ignored for the sake of soe spurious ‘community cohesion’. i.e. that our public institutions and the proponents of PC multiculturalism wrongly have a hierarchy of ‘deserving’ groups. It is not stated but it is understood.

        That is why there was reluctance/cowardice to tackle this issue head on, and a defensive and indeed smearing approach against those who tried to publicise the issue. With the Rotherham scandal we have a blatant example of ‘deserving minority’ criminals being given preferential treatment and protection over their ‘less deserving minority’ victims .

        • Guest

          Actually, I don’t presuppose that Political Correctness is the same as Equality. Political Correctness is the perception of Equality taken too far – such as, (in my opinion) the silly idea that Christmas should not be celebrated in UK schools, or banning prayer outright in American schools to provide some sort of ill-conceived balance for secularism.

          That doesn’t mean we should stop fighting for equality for fear of straying into Political Correctness. Most excesses of Political Correctness arise from good intentions poorly thought out and badly executed.

          But this case isn’t about Political Correctness. Political Correctness even in its most overblown form does not free rapists on the basis of their race or for fear of being labeled racist. It’s ludicrous. Has there been any other case where any other minority race or cultural group has had this effect? Hasn’t it rather largely been the opposite? That people of a minority race are presupposed towards a certain type of crime? How else can we account for racial profiling? How else can we account for every black teen who’s been stopped and searched just because he was there?

          This is criminal negligence, gender politics & appalling mismanagement. Race has become the scapegoat of this case, because black and white politics are easier to see, particularly in this climate.

          It is an abysmal indictment of modern day politics that the Home Secretary suggested that party politics has anything to do with this. In doing so, she effectively used the victims to score a point for next year’s elections. Revolting.

          But she did it because it was an opportunity to touch the nerve centre of a perceived imbalance (your hierarchy of PC multiculturalism) & spark a polemic political debate that benefits no one except politically-motivated people like Nigel Farage. The idea that these authorities (in a country with a white majority) neglected these girls because of a perceived priority towards a group of rapists no matter what their ethnicity is preposterous. That they failed at their jobs is not.

          Children are universal in their value and vulnerability and yet there have been comprehensive failures by authorities of all sorts – in police, government, schools and religions – throughout the ages and in every continent, to stop the horror of rape. There is a wider picture here. A very old story.

        • Jo Milford

          Actually, I don’t presuppose that Political Correctness is the same as Equality. Political Correctness is the perception of Equality taken too far – such as, (in my opinion) the silly idea that Christmas should not be celebrated in UK schools, or banning prayer outright in American schools to provide some sort of ill-conceived balance for secularism.

          That doesn’t mean we should stop fighting for equality for fear of straying into Political Correctness. Most excesses of Political Correctness arise from good intentions poorly thought out and badly executed.

          But this case isn’t about Political Correctness. Political Correctness even in its most overblown form does not free rapists on the basis of their race or for fear of being labeled racist. It’s ludicrous. Has there been any other case where any other minority race or cultural group has had this effect? Hasn’t it rather largely been the opposite? That people of a minority race are presupposed towards a certain type of crime? How else can we account for racial profiling? How else can we account for every black teen who’s been stopped and searched just because he was there?

          This is criminal negligence, gender politics & appalling mismanagement. Race has become the scapegoat of this case, because black and white politics are easier to see, particularly in this climate.

          It is an abysmal indictment of modern day politics that the Home Secretary suggested that party politics has anything to do with this. In doing so, she effectively used the victims to score a point for next year’s elections. The idea that any politician from any party could do this in an enlightened democracy, is quite frankly, revolting.

          But she did it because it was an opportunity to touch the nerve centre of a perceived imbalance (your hierarchy of PC multiculturalism) & spark a polemic political debate that benefits no one except politically-motivated people like Nigel Farage. The idea that these authorities (in a country with a white majority) neglected these girls because of a perceived priority towards a group of rapists no matter what their ethnicity is preposterous. That they failed at their jobs is not.

          Children are universal in their value and vulnerability and yet there have been comprehensive failures by authorities of all sorts – in police, government, schools and religions – throughout the ages and in every continent, to stop the horror of rape. There is a wider picture here. A very old story.

  • Guest

    The suggestion that Labour’s Overbearing Equality measures somehow caused this horror seems infantile to me. The awful people who knew and did nothing Must Face the music, but the lesson here is not that we need less awareness of a communal need for equality but that we must ensure our authorities apply it correctly, with clarity & that they certainly don’t get away with use it’s name to avoid responsibility.

    Appalling dysfunction occurs under every government, by the hand of every race, and every religion. Every empire has raped in droves, and continues to do so. The beastial heart of man endures. Every religion has its false prophets, its wolves in sheep’s clothing. Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister when she covered up child abuse allegations against one of her senior ministers. Should Tories hang their heads? No, because this isn’t about the them. It’s about the poor children whose cries went unheeded, its about the morality of a person in the highest seat of power who had every reason to know better and acted wrongly – criminally even. This isn’t about Labour. This isn’t about prejudice. This is about a broken community growing increasingly polarised over race while the victims continue to suffer.

    Anyone who seeks to highlight a deeper inclination for one particular ethnicity or religion or political affiliation (in this country’s history at least) cannot hope to quantify definitively that one is more or less likely to commit a horrific crime without considering a wealth of other factors. It betrays inherent prejudices that we all possess, in some form, as much as the choice not to succumb to them, in support of our civilised society.

    • David Pavett

      It is becoming apparent that some people did not speak out for fear of being thought racist. This is not the first time this has happened and it is clear some ill thought through policies within Labour have contributed to this. There is a detailed argument about this in Kenan Malik’s From Fatwa to Jihad and in his more recent Multiculturalism. There is also a good piece in the Guardian today by Samera Ahmed on the Rotherham affair.

      • PoundInYourPocket

        “It is becoming apparent that some people did not speak out for fear of being thought racist”
        I’m not convinced that’s the case or the real issue. Although as we can see this issue is clearly being misused for political purposes by those that oppose multi-culturalisim and equality. The main issue that comes across when I read the report is that S.Yorks police didn’t adequately investigate reported crimes due to their prejudices against the the type of people that were potential victims, they were also fixated on other policing targets. Other causal factors were the lack of resources such that social services were overwhelmed by the number of cases being referred to them. It’s interesiting that Rotherham were highly praised for their front-line work with the youth workers of “Risky Business”. The work of “Risky Business” uncovered the true extent of abuse and started referring more and more cases through to social services beyond what they could handle. Similar levels of abiuse may be uncovered elsewhere if they implement similar fron-line schemes. It’s not suprising that senior social workers and councillors questioned the number of referalls as they were out of the norm. The problem was in not believing the veracity of what was being reported. A common management problem. According to websites such as “rothpol” there is perhaps a murky local-politics aspect by which local councillor/s (alledgedly) failed to deal with known offenders that held taxi licences allowing the local taxi rank to operate as a criminal gang. Other councillors were (allegedly) fearful of exposing this. Overall I don’t see a major causal factor here as being one of “political correctness” hindering criminal investigations. I think the trolls have hijacked the story for their own ends.

        • Hugh

          “I’m not convinced that’s the case”

          Clearly not, but Alexis Jay, who wrote the report, seems to be. Here it is in the Executive Summary: “Several staff described their nervousness about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought racist; others remembered clear direction from their managers not to do so.”

          It’s clear this isn’t the main or central point of the report, but I really don’t see the value in denying its existance – doing so rather tends to confirm what those who obsess about it believe.

          Your free pass for the service managers and councillors is also not supported by the report as, again, the summary makes perfectly clear: “Over the first twelve years covered by this Inquiry, the collective failures of political and officer leadership were blatant. From the beginning, there was growing evidence that child sexual exploitation was a serious problem in Rotherham.”

          and

          “Seminars for elected members and senior officers in 2004-05 presented the abuse in the most explicit terms. After these events, nobody could say ‘we didn’t know’.”

          “Officers” in these paragraphs is not referring to the police, who are indeed blamed, but not solely responsible.

          And here are both points reinforced: “By 2005, it is hard to believe that any senior officers or members from the Leader and the Chief Executive downwards, were not aware of the issue. Most members showed little obvious leadership or interest in CSE for much of the period under review apart from their continued support for Risky Business. The possible reasons for this are not clear but may include denial that this could occur in Rotherham, concern that the ethnic element could damage community cohesion, worry about reputational risk to the Borough if the issue was brought fully into the public domain, and the belief that if that occurred, it might compromise police operations.”

          I think to say what occured after the abuse was uncovered coudl have occured in any authority is extraordinarily insulting to those in other authorities.

          • PoundInYourPocket

            I’m certainly not, as you suggest, giving service managers or councillors a “free pass”. It’s clear from this report and from the recent history of Rotherham council that it was in many ways dysfunctional and as I said in my post councillors should be held accountable for negligence and any illegality. The aim of my post was to put the focus back onto the causal issues which i maintain are not due to political correctness. The report quotes staff concerns that they should not raise issues of race but it also makes it abundantly clear that the decisions made by professionals were not influenced by such concerns. This is about a dysfunctional council (lack of sccrutiny/ lack of accountability/ cronyism / sexism / macho-culture / gross mismanagement and negligence) and police prejudices (failure to investigate / failure to prosecute), the reasons for these manifold failings is not fundamentally “political correctness”. Although as the report states there were some concerns about not wanting to incite racial tension. Concerns that the report author says were valid.

          • Hugh

            Again, you distort what it says. Concerns over community cohesion were “to some extent …valid” in that the English Defence League turned up – not, though, to the extent that the ethnicity of those responsible should have been downplayed. As the report says, “the approach of avoiding public discussion of the issues was ill judged.”

            The report makes it abundantly clear that race and a reluctance to address it were issues – as, incidentally did the 2006 report. That’s why it says (as well as all the quotes above): “The issue of race, regardless of ethnic group, should be tackled as an absolute priority if it is known to be a significant factor in the criminal activity of organised abuse in any local community. There was little evidence of such action being taken in Rotherham in the earlier years.”

            Once again, no, it’s not the main cause, but it seems to have been a contributory factor. To be clear, the statement that “It is becoming apparent that some people did not speak out for fear of being thought racist” is true – according to the report.

            I also don’t think I misrepresent your opinion that this could have happened in any local authority in describing it as a free pass for those in charge. I don’t think ignoring widespread, blatant evidence of children being raped could happen in any authority, and I don’t think there is anything in the report to suggest the author agrees either.

          • PoundInYourPocket

            Clearly two people can read a text and come away with different views. However we are agreed that political correctness is not the main cause, though you attribute a stonger role to it than I do. I really don’t see ethnic sensitivities as having hindered child protection or the prosecution of offenders in this case and it was the more hysterical posts that I was trying to rebutt. Clearly there will be an inquiry which will bring out more of the facts. On the issue of a “free-pass”, I’m not giving those involved a “free-pass” by saying it could happen in any other council, I’m simply saying that negligence is not confined to Rotherham, such negligence can occur anywhere and I don’t believe Rotherham to be the only council with these issues to face.

  • Jo Milford

    The suggestion that Labour’s Overbearing Equality measures somehow caused this horror seems infantile to me. The awful people who knew and did nothing Must Face the music, but the lesson here is not that we need less awareness of a communal need for equality but that we must ensure our authorities apply it correctly, with clarity & that they certainly don’t get away with using its name to avoid responsibility.

    Appalling dysfunction occurs under every government, by the hand of every race, and every religion. Every empire has raped in droves, and continues to do so. The beastial heart of man endures to this day. Every religion has its false prophets, its wolves in sheep’s clothing. Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister when she covered up child abuse allegations against one of her senior ministers. Should the Tories hang their heads? No, because this isn’t about the them. It’s about the poor children whose cries went unheeded and were blocked, its about the morality of a person in the highest seat of power who had every reason to know better and acted wrongly – criminally even. This isn’t about Labour. This isn’t about prejudice. This is about a broken community growing increasingly polarised over arguments over race while the victims of the crime continue to suffer.

    Anyone who seeks to highlight a deeper inclination for one particular ethnicity or religion or political affiliation (in this country’s history at least), cannot hope to quantify definitively that one is more or less likely to commit a horrific crime without considering a wealth of other factors. It betrays inherent prejudices that we all possess, in some form, as much as the choice not to succumb to them, in support of our civilised society.

    • Lamia

      Verbose drivel. You’re not by chance a public sector employee, are you?

      • Jo Milford

        You make me laugh 🙂 . No, I’m no public sector employee. I’m a taxpayer, deeply chagrined (at a personal level) at a government whose politics are sliding this country down a slippery slope of racist vernacular as a convenient excuse for a wider (& short-sighted) financial agenda built on the ideologies of the richest 1%.

        However, as a citizen, I have an obligation to set aside my personal feelings in view of the whole. I don’t think finger-pointing, thinly-veiled personal prejudices, or pushing political agendas is rational, constructive or helpful in this case, in particular, for the victims. I’d rather work with my government (such as it is) to improve the situation & to bring the criminals to justice, instead of playing party politics, or using it to polarise society by giving vent to personal discrimination.

        If that opinion is drivel to you that’s certainly your prerogative

        • Lamia

          Jo, I don’t think I’m going to agree with you much on this matter, but I am sorry for speaking rudely to you above – you have been courteous and didn’t deserve that. Please accept my apology.

          • Jo Milford

            Thank you 🙂 and I’m happy to agree to disagree. Best wishes to you.

  • Tokyo Nambu

    “No one blamed the entire BBC when the Jimmy Savile cover-up was exposed”

    Er, I rather think you’ll find they did. The DG resigned over the issue, for example.

  • Spartanzz

    Muslims…you have a sick problem that pervades your society. The sooner we “outside the muslim community” ackowledge this, the sooner we acknowledge Islam and the Qu’ran is the problem the better for social cohesion.

    Why do I say this? Because muslims are blinded by their religion, thinking it gives them the devine right to do what they want without accountability. Wherever it exists they seek to tear down the fabric of that nation’s laws, values, civic norms and install their own.

    So you read of places where the political left became the supreme authority, which resulted in the law no longer becoming effective, or was swept aside. In a slightly lesser extent this is what you feel has taken place in Rotherham, where the Cultural Marxist’s with their multiculturalism and their politics of fear made the law completely ineffective and muslims are now allowed to act with impunity as predators targeting the weakest, most vulnerable in society.

    The Labour Party and their worldviews, belief systems are entirely to blame. Muslims you are the enemy in my eyes.

    • David Pavett

      This is a very ignorant piece. Anyone who starts off thinking that all Muslims (or Christians, or whatever) are all the same because they have one thing in common has not started to think seriously about politics.

      • Spartanzz

        That’s the problem David, your astounding ignorance/arrogance/twisted worldview (take your pick) thus allowing thousands of girls within our borders to be systematically raped on an industrial scale.

        You make me sick

        • PoundInYourPocket

          So in your view , it’s “Labour views” that have led to “rape on an industrial scale”. Can you offer any shred of support for that bizzare view ? Aftferall the Labour party have done more than any other party to promote gender equality and support the police in prosecuting rape cases.

      • gunnerbear

        Islam is not compatible with the values and systems of liberal democracies. It simply isn’t – Islam seeks to smash everything before it….it brooks no dissent…..and the believers in Islam….well, we’re seeing their actions around the world today.

    • PoundInYourPocket

      How do you know the perpetrators were muslim ? They were mainly asian, some European, some caribean. Where does it say they were muslims or that they held any religiious views ? I think you’ve startred out with an opinion and have gone looking for a fight. But your views don’t fit the facts.

      • llanystumdwy

        I have read that the accused were all Pakistani (not mostly). Given that Pakistan is a Muslim society then it is reasonable to arrive at this conclusion. I find these facts uncomfortable but nevertheless,they are true. The type of obfuscation, that you are indulging in, only discredits your arguments because its political correctness gone mad and it should not make anyone a racist for saying so.

        Of course it does not mean that all Pakistani men are like this,but by accepting the facts in this Rotherham case and further research we should be able to understand if there is something about their cultural attitudes in gang culture that needs correcting or whatever. But to do as you doing here in refusing to accept this truth because it is uncomfortable will never solve anything. As I said earlier, we have to face up to these issues not hide away from them otherwise nothing will ever be solved.

        • PoundInYourPocket

          There have been very few prosecutions so it’s too early to say that all involved were or are Pakistani. Those mentioned in the Jay report (that I presume haven’t been prosecuted) are mainly asian but also white / other. (Jay report section 11.4 and 13.44). This isn’t political correctness gone mad but it is about taking care not to allow racist factions from making too much out of this with headlines like “Pakistanis rape white girls”. Not all perpetrators were/are pakistanis and not all victims were/are white or girls.

          • llanystumdwy

            You are right that there have been too few prosecutions, why? It comes back to the central issue about cowardice for fear of rocking the multicultural boat – by the way these are not my words but the words of, the ex Labour MP McShane. All those convicted to date were Pakistani. As for your claim of Muslim rapes by these men, I must say I could not find details in the Jay report. As far as I can see, your trying to obfuscate the issue. Our goal here should be to try to integrate communities. We will not get integration by hiding incontrovertible truths. We will get it by engagement and honest discussion. This data is as statistically significant as you could get and to pretend otherwise is nonsense.

      • Spartanzz

        I don’t need to know anything, the report clearly states over 90% were of Pakistani muslim origin. Facts…who needs em?

        You know what I think? You should maybe check your spelling you stupid boy it’s atrocious and deeply suspicious.

        Wink Wink look to the East.

        • PoundInYourPocket

          That’s not what the report says, neither does it say that any of the alledged perpetrators were muslim. Clearly you read into tea-leaves and spelling rather than facts or reports. Vote UKIP.

          • Spartanzz

            That’s exactly what the report says, furthermore the perps were overwhelmingly muslim in this specific Rotherham case. I should know I’ve poured over mountains of legal docs specifically relating.

            Rest assured “friend” I shall not only be voting UKIP, I’ll be encouraging any sane individual with a British passport that cares about the UK to do so.

            Have a nice evening.

          • PoundInYourPocket

            The report does not at any point suggest any of the perpetrators were “muslim”. No one anywhere has made that suggestion. If I’m wrong provide the section reference. But I suspect you don’t actually know what the word “muslim” means, hence the comment.

          • Spartanzz

            I have to categorically, fundamentally, vigorously disagree with you. There’s damning evidence to suggest the perps were disproportionately muslim. You know this, the entire nation knows this, by attempting to obfuscate you only make that many more citizens wildly angry and that my friend is unwise for social cohesion.

            I’m well verse on the differences between…

            Asian, Pakistani, Muslim, Islam, Islamist, Arab, Persian, Sunni, Shia, Sikhs, Hindu, Wahhabism, Salafism, Hamas, Hezbollah, ISIL, ISIS, IS, Al Qaeda, Al-Nusra, FSA etc…

            I do however think it’s disingenous to use the term Asian, that wrongly implicates Indians, Chinese etc…

            Would you like to continue?

          • PoundInYourPocket

            The report refers to the perpetrators as mainly “asian” , it also uses the term “pakistani-heritage”, i.e. 2nd / 3rd generation British-Pakistani. Absolutely NOWHERE in the report does it say they were or are assumed to be “muslim” which means followers of the Islamic faith. And why would it ? When a white british person commits a rape we don’t say a “catholic” or a “protestant” man committed rape. Their faith is arbitrary. This isn’t about race or religion it’s about a gang of people that targetted vulnerable children. The attitudes of the gangs involved are a concern but their attitudes are not those of all “muslim” or all “pakistanis” , just as the attitutes of any other white-british criminal gang are not shared by all anglican-white-british people. Time to dump the stereotypes and look at reality.

  • MikeHomfray

    Very sensible response, Sunny. I’m afraid it will fall on deaf ears given the number of fringe headbangers who can’t cope with the existence of British Muslims

    • gunnerbear

      Another apologist for Pakistani rapists and Muslim terrorists.

  • David Pavett

    I found this article helpful and informative. I agree with all the main points. However I suggest that the following formulation is confusing:

    “It is ridiculous to imply that British Pakistanis should police their
    own community and take responsibility as a group. No one blamed the
    entire BBC when the Jimmy Savile cover-up was exposed; no one asked
    middle-aged white men to take responsibility for the cover-up of Savile,
    Rolf Harris and others.”

    It is one think to “police a community” and I agree that the suggestion is ridiculous, and another thing to suggest that everyone, of whatever social group or background, has a duty to speak out when they know that terrible crimes are being committed – even to the point of running personal risks (while of course trying to minimise these). These things cannot just be left to the authorities and care workers. Everyone has a responsibility not to turn a blind eye when they know about abuse of the vulnerable.

  • gunnerbear

    SH, Honestly, there is no defence for the behaviour of the Labour Party or Labour council in Rotherham. None. And the quote about the ‘rest of the country’ – well that stinks like you’re trying to downplay what happened or even dodge it.

  • Paul

    No. It is about the attitude of Asian men to white girls. Not just in Rotherham but all over.

    • PoundInYourPocket

      Some of the victime were asian.

      • Ludo

        So all Muslims need to do is make sure that one-in-a-thousand of their victims are also Muslim and that will be enough for you to ignore the problem. You are an apologist for these sickening crimes and if you continue with your ideas, you become a facilitator of future rape and torture.

        With views like that, you should join the Labour party.

        • PoundInYourPocket

          I stated a fact, and it remains a fact. That some of the victims were asian. The rest is all presumption and prejudice on your part. Where in those 6 words did I say I was ignoring the issue ?

          • Ludo

            You cretin; you stated that “fact” as though it refuted Paul’s fact. It does not. You must have the IQ of a dog.

          • PoundInYourPocket

            I was responding to the statement:
            “It is about the attitude of Asian men to white girls” with the fact which I’ll repeat once again, that some of the victims were and still are asian girls: ergo – this is not simply about the attitude of “Asian men to white girls”. I await your calm and rational response.

  • llanystumdwy

    Labour should hang its head in shame after what has happened in Rotherham. Instead, they do what they always do, behave perfectly PC and avoid doing anything to alienate their vote. That seems to be of overriding concern to them. As always, they say what they think is safe, rather than say what they think is right. Oh, one last thing, they never accept responsibility or fault. Yvette Cooper’s recent interview on this matter proves this point. No wonder voters are disillusioned with politicians.

    • PoundInYourPocket

      Why exactly is this a “Labour Party” issue ? Could have happened in any “rotton borough” where the main party becomes dysfunctional owing to lack of scrutiny and inherent cronyism. There’s nothing that makes this a “Labour Party” problem.

      • llanystumdwy

        I totally disagree. This is a problem for Labour at the local (Rotherham) and National level.

        First, on a local level this was a Labour council and the ex Labour MP (McShane) who admitted himself that Labour did not want to rock the boat of multiculturalism. I have read much of the report into this abuse (by the author Alexis Jay) and she has said that during the many years of the abuse and its investigation, Labour councillors had only just two meetings in 15 years were held with members of the Pakistani community about child sex abuse. The local Labour party did not want to allow this out into the open because the Pakistani community largely votes Labour. They were ready to put their own interests in spinning “all is well” rather than investigate these matters. They were afraid of being accused of being racist and that took precedent over justice that these victims deserved.

        On a national level, New Labour’s spin and target culture, during this period, has contributed largely to the problems in Rotherham. For example, a social worker in Rotherham appeared on the BBC news last night to say that targets were all that mattered. And she accused the local authority of deliberately under-reporting the number of children at risk to make the statistics look good. Typical New Labour spin.

        I should also add that, Shaun Wright resigned from the Labour party, following pressure from this tragedy for these young victims, but, sadly, choose not to resign his well paid post.

        • PoundInYourPocket

          There’s no doubt this is about negligence in office and self-interest crony politics, but it’s not inherently about the Labour Party or Labour policy and beliefs. Cronyism affects all single-party councils where there’s a lack of accountability and scrutiny. What is there in this failure that is specifically “labour” other than that it was a labour council ? There’s nothing that relates to labour beliefs or policy. Councillors keeping a lid on things to keep their own jobs is cronyism and corruption, but that’s not a uniquely Labour preserve.

          • llanystumdwy

            Specifically, I think it is Labour’s obsession with spin and seeking a good image, even if it means not doing the right thing. When new Labour came to power, Blair, Brown Mandelson, Campbell, etc., put spin above substance in a way which previous governments had never done before. This culture has had many negative effects on society. I won’t deal with all of them here, but just take, bad news events for example. Sometimes they are inevitable and they should face such problems, not try to cover them up, but as Rotherham shows and the comments I made earlier this no longer happens.

            You are right about one thing, there has always been cronyism, but the New Labour spin culture means that politicians,now with very few exceptions, only say what they think is safe to say not what it was right to say (remember Mandelson’s mantra be on-message). Not only that but because they became obsessed with spin, their values and principles have become less important. They want to win now but they don’t know what they want to win for any more other than giving nice jobs to young, clever, careerist politicians.Voters can see through. this and that is why they have such a negative view of politics. I thought things would have been different with Ed, but there is little evidence of that after 4 years of being leader. Labour desperately needs to have an honest conversation with the electorate, but so many shadow cabinet members seem happy to hide away in the Westminster bubble. That is why UKIP are beginning to win over some of the working class voters.

            I speak as a former long term member who was elated on that day in 1997 when Blair won. I was a proud member and believe that the old Labour party did great things for our country, but all that changed by the time New Labour had finished.I will not vote Labour again until until they honestly demonstrate that they are in it for the people again not themselves

  • Ludo

    The headline is at odds with the copy, which is a justification of rape and torture. If Pakistanis were as angry as we are, you wouldn’t need to write such a headline. What you would do is to say that they are as angry as we are and then offer evidence. But there is no such evidence as these crimes are the natural results of multiculturalism and appeasement.

    • PoundInYourPocket

      “these crimes are the natural results of multiculturalism and appeasement.”
      How did you manage to reach that startling conclusion ?

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