David Lammy latest MP to call for all-minority ethnic shortlists

1st August, 2014 2:58 pm

David Lammy, MP for Tottenham, has become the latest Labour MP to suggest applying all-minority ethnic shortlists to future parliamentary selections in order to increase representation for black and minority ethnic (BME) people in Westminster.

David Lammy Daily Politics

Responding to research carried out by former Labour minister Parmjit Dhanda and the Insight Public Affairs group on the lack of representation in the House of Commons, Lammy said:

“Clearly none of the parties have any room for complacency when it comes to BME representation.

“Political parties should look seriously at introducing BME shortlists, following on from the success of Labour’s all-women shortlists. We need bold measures to tackle this problem, not just more tinkering around the edges.”

In June, Shadow Minister Sadiq Khan said that he was in favour of “exploring” the idea of BME shortlists.

However, Lammy and Khan may face an uphill struggle: when we surveyed LabourList readers on the topic, 68% said they were against the idea. When LabourList interviewed Chuka Umunna (with questions submitted by our readers), he admitted that he was “a little bit sceptical about all-BME shortlists”.

Interestingly, Lammy and Khan are both considered contenders for the Labour candidacy for London Mayor in 2016 – and Labour have selected BME candidates in 40% of London’s target seats. It will be interesting to see if any non-London MPs are willing to give their support to the idea, as it seems it is outside the capital where such a scheme may be more useful.

Parmjit Dhanda wrote about his findings for LabourList this morning. You can read his piece here.

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  • Harriet Harman has already supported the idea and continues to do so as far as I’m aware. Same applies to Jack Straw. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/jan/24/all-black-mp-shortlists

    Considering the overwhelming support BME communities give to the Labour Party I think our diversity of candidates is woeful and particularly bad with European candidates. Ironically it is the overwhelming support of the BME community in big cities that stopped the Labour Party dipping to third place in the recent European election. The Labour Party has championed AWS or in the very least tolerated it. There is no reason what so ever why the principles should not be extended.

    The Conservative Party is only a few BME MPs behind Labour which is an absolute scandal. The Conservatives actually have the same amount of MPs with an African or Caribbean background as Labour does. As is always the case people will come along here and say things like what about disabled people or gay people etc. We should do more but that does not mean we should not do this. It does not mean we shouldn’t do both. How have we arrived at a situation where there is not a single MP of Chinese descent in parliament? Not a single BME Liberal MP?

    BME citizens will make up nearly 30% of the population by 2050, they are already far higher than that in many places in the UK. The current model is not sustainable. And the slow death of the Republican Party in the US should act as a lesson to political parties that do not diversify.

    http://rt.com/uk/157012-britain-ethnic-minorities/

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10809481/Non-white-people-almost-30-per-cent-of-population-by-2050.html

    One of the biggest problems is there is a huge deficit of BME people employed and involved in our party and partner organisations. So there is often a talent gap.
    One small uncontroversial thing the Labour Party could do straight away is force elected politicians to conduct and publish diversity audits. How many women, BME, disabled people do any of them employ? I’m sure they’d be a notable improvement and not just from White MPs either.

    • Chilbaldi

      “BME citizens will make up nearly 30% of the population by 2050”

      Lets not exaggerate. Britain is currently 12-13% ethnic minority. 3% black. And it’s not wise to quote RT for these sort of things given their propensity for stirring in British affairs.

      “Also I think this is half the problem. Why stuff BME candidates into “Urban seats” ?”

      I think the point is that London has an exceptionally high proportion of ethnic minority residents. It is therefore natural that people who live in London will be selected for seats there, and that these people are more likely to be black/asian.

      There are very few other cities like London in UK for ethnic diversity. Birmingham, Leicester, Bradford are very diverse. But go to Glasgow or Newcastle and you might not see a black face all weekend. Living in London, its sometimes easy to forget that.

      “I’m sure many constituencies up North would happily vote for a decent BME candidate.”

      I’m sure they would. See Chi Onwurah as an example. I’m sure if more BME candidates apply for seats elsewhere in the country then they will be selected there.

      There are loads of opportunities for BME people to progress in the Labour Party, should they wish to.

      • gunnerbear

        Yeah, parachuting outsiders…..no problems brewing up doing that is there? Plus of course even AWS don’t exactly widen the pool much do they…look at the woman picked for Grimsby….Melanie Onn… “She studied politics, philosophy and international studies at Middlesex University, before working for a national blind charity and the Labour Party. She is now a trade union organiser for the public services union, Unison, working in and around Grimsby with public sector workers.” Hellfire, talking about picking an insider….I wonder where her loyalties are going to lie…..

        • The widening of the poole around issues of class is a different issue. That doesn’t mean we can’t fix that too … More working class women sure … Go and find some.

          • gunnerbear

            Give up…no party wants working class types….not one. Working class types are the sort of people who stand up and go this is b******ks when it comes to some the gibberish spouted by HMG and HMLO.I’ve got more in common with a US steelworker or a French shipyard worker or a German coalminer than I have with a member of the ‘white collar working class’ in the service industries.

        • Why are you so parochial ? Bussing in outsiders ? You talk as if there is no democratic election.

          • gunnerbear

            I’ve had dinner with US steelworkers. They had come to visit a plant near where I live. Their concerns about the costs of high energy on their industry, the idiocy of green regulations when it’s pretty much only us and the US going for such garbage……where very much in line with mine….and so in turn a million miles away from Red ‘Ramp Up The Green Costs’ Ed. and Dave “Pour on the Energy Costs Like Ed” Cameron. If either party leader invited me to lunch or for a beer, what would I have in common with them? Nothing. Not a single thing…they are both pro-green, pro-high energy costs, pro-EU membership, pro-immigration…..nothing in common with me.

          • So ? FIne… Vote accordingly.

          • gunnerbear

            I’m NOTA – none of the parties have anything to capture my vote. I notice you don’t dispute my argument about why I think I’ve nothing in common with EM or DC – is that because you agree that on the policies mentioned by me, EM and DC are interchangeable?

          • No not really. There’s lots of differences between EM/DM on that issue. I disagree with them both. The problem isn’t “Green Politics” it’s Green Politics wedded to the old capitalist model. Look at Germany, Netherlands or Sweden. Fantastic examples of making the “green agenda” work.

            I can’t agree with you on EU because I am ridiculously PRO EU. It’s very easy to dismantle lots of that. If we left the UK what about the 2> m Brits in Europe ? Free movement works both ways.

          • gunnerbear

            Germany has expanded it’s lignite production – lignite is pretty much wet coal. It doesn’t burn very well so you need eyewatering amounts of it for anything useful. Look at what the German and Polish power generators are doing. Green power? You’ve got to be joking.A huge chunk of Sweden’s power comes from nuclear energy….not that green…and hydro-electrics because Sweden has the geography for it. I’d love to see N-power in the UK….all that demand for steel and concrete.Very easy to dismantle? Prey tell which bits? The EU has made it clear that the direction of travel is only one way….ever closer integration. The Eastern Bloc nations have made it crystal clear that they will never tolerate anything that stops the freedom of movement of people. I mean why would the p***-poor eastern states of the EU want to stop free movement when every unemployable citizen they export to the UK is one less mouth for them to support.As for the Brits abroad – they are not a drain on local economies. their spending is vital to some areas of Spain and France.

          • gunnerbear

            “It’s very easy to dismantle lots of that.” – Really? Easy to dismantle the EU as it currently exists. These quotes suggest otherwise; “The single market was the theme of the Eighties; the single currency was the theme of the Nineties; we must now face the difficult task of moving towards a single economy, a single political unity.” (Romano Prodi, 13 April 1999),”The [Lisbon Treaty] is indeed a tidying -up exercise, it sweeps the rest of our sovereignty under the Brussels carpet.” (Lord Pearson) “The Government’s guiding principle was…to swallow the lot and swallow
            it now.” (Sir Con O’Neill, the British diplomat who led the UK’s negotiations for EEC membership under Heath) “I look forward to the day when the Westminster Parliament is just a council chamber in Europe.” (Kenneth Clarke, Conservative Chancellor in International Currency Review Vol 23 No 4 1996) “The EU is the old Soviet Union dressed in Western clothes” (President Gorbachev) “Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe” (Treaty of Rome 1957) “This Treaty marks a new stage in the process of creating an ever closer union…” (Maastricht Treaty 1992) “The supremacy of Community Law when in conflict with national law is the logical consequence of the federal concept of the Community” (H P Ipsen, 1964 – 9 years before we
            joined) “Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals we dare not present to them directly.
            All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and diguised” (Valery Giscard D’Estang. on the Lisbon treaty) “It means the end of a thousand years of history.”
            (Hugh Gaitskell (1906-63), on a European federation; speech at Labour Party Conference, 1962″”The Constitution is the capstone of a European Federal State.” (Guy Verhofstadt, Belgian Prime Minister) ‘If it’s a Yes we will say “on we go”, and if it’s a No we will say “we continue”.’ (Jean-Claude Juncker, President of the European Council) “The substance of the Constitution is preserved. That is a fact.” (German Chancellor Angela Merkel on the Lisbon Treaty) “They must go on voting until they get it right.” (Jose Manuel Barroso, President of the European Commission) “If you go through all the structures and features of this emerging European monster you will notice that it more and more resembles the Soviet Union.”
            (Russian dissident Vladimir Bukovsky) “The European Union is a state under construction.” (Elmar Brok, Chairman of the European Parliament’s Committee on Foreign Affairs) “I have never understood why public opinion about European ideas should be taken into account at all,” (French
            PM Raymond Barre) “Let’s be clear about this. The
            rejection of the constitution was a mistake that will have to be corrected.” (Valéry Giscard d’Estaing) “In Brussels one says “member state”. You may imagine it means the same thing as country or state, but “member state” does not. Note that adjective. Member modifies state. Like “wooden” modifies “leg”. The noun stays the same, but the essence of the thing is gone.” (Mary Ellen Synon, Bruges Group Annual Conference 2013) “[Bailouts are] expressly
            forbidden in the treaties by the famous no-bailout clause. De facto, we have changed the treaty.” (French Europe minister Pierre Lelouche) “The European Union must take a decisive step towards a federal economic government, with common fiscal policies and a larger budget, if it is to save the euro.”(Andrew Duff Lib Dem MEP 2011) “The transfer by the States from their domestic legal system to the Community legal system of the rights and obligations arising under the Treaty carries with it a permanent limitation of their sovereign rights… against which a subsequent act incompatible with the concept of the Community cannot prevail” (ECJ Case 6/64)

            “[The EU Constitution represents]
            a visible move in only one direction…from intergovernmentalism to
            supranationalism…and this should be explained to the people of Europe” (Czech
            Republic President Vaclav Klaus)

            “The European Parliament is a
            caucusing body that is incredibly responsive to lobbying institutions, but it
            is completely unresponsive to public opinion.” (Gisela Stuart,
            Labour MP June 2009)

            “It is an illusion to think that
            [EU] states can hold on to their autonomy.” (Hans Tietmeyer, head
            of the Bundesbank 1991)

            “…within ten years 80% of our economic legislation, perhaps even fiscal
            and social as well’ would come from the EU.” (Jacques Delors,
            President of EU Commission 1988)

            “The huge cost of the Common
            Agricultural Policy to taxpayers and consumers far outweighs any benefit to
            them…” (Memo by MAFF to House of Lords European Communities
            Committee 1995)

            “…we must now face the difficult
            task of moving towards a single economy, a single political unity.” (Romano
            Prodi, President of EU Commission 1999)

            “The day of the nation state is over.”
            (Roman Herzog, German president, 1996)

            “The European system of
            supranationality comes at the cost of democracy.” (Lord Leach of
            Fairford)

            “A European currency will lead to
            member nations transferring their sovereignty over financial and wage policy as
            well as monetary affairs.” (Hans Tietmeyer, head of the Bundesbank,
            1991)

            “The single currency is the
            greatest abandonment of sovereignty since the foundation of the European
            Community: the decision is of an essentially political nature” (Felipe
            Gonzalez, a Spanish former PM, 1998)

            “The [EU] Council of Ministers
            will have far more power over the budgets of member states than the federal
            government in the United States has over the budget of Texas.” (Jean-Claude
            Trichet, current head of the European Central Bank)

            “One must never forget that
            monetary union, which the two of us were the first to propose more than a
            decade ago, is ultimately a political project. It aims to give a new impulse to
            the historic movement toward union of the European states” (Giscard
            d’Estaing, who drafted the EU Constitution 1997)

            “The process of monetary union
            goes hand in hand, must go hand in hand, with political integration and
            ultimately political union. EMU [economic and monetary union] is, and always
            was meant to be, a stepping stone on the way to a united Europe”
            (Wim Duisenberg, first president of the EU Central Bank)

            “Once the interlude of [WWI] was
            over, [countries] all went back to the rules and customs of traditional
            parliamentary democracies. I felt out of my depth.” (Jean Monnet
            ‘Father of Europe’)

            “If Britain wants
            to leave the single market, you should say so. But if Britain wants
            to stay a part of the single market, free movement applies. You cannot have
            your cake and eat it.” (Vivanne Reding, EU Justice Commissioner (EU Vice
            President))

            “Some expect my speech to
            pave the way for a fundamental reform of the European architecture which will
            satisfy all kinds of alleged or actual British wishes. I am afraid they are in
            for a disappointment” (Angela Merkel)

            “We are not forming coalitions between States,
            but union among people”

            (Jean Monnet, ‘Father of Europe’)

            “The sovereign nations of the past can no longer solve the problems
            of the present: they cannot ensure their own progress or control their own
            future. And the Community itself is only a stage on the way to the organised
            world of tomorrow.”

            (Jean Monnet, ‘Father of Europe’)

            “It’s not possible to renegotiate
            freedom of movement. It’s a fundamental principle of the internal market.”
            (Jose Manuel Barroso)

            “There will be no repatriation of EU powers.
            It is not our problem; it is not us making the demands. You are either ‘in’ or
            ‘out’.” (European Commission vice-president Viviane Reding)

            “The
            right of free movement of workers foreseen in TFEU (Article 45) gives every
            citizen of the Union the right to move freely to another Member State
            in order to work and reside there. It protects them against discrimination on
            grounds of nationality as regards access to employment, remuneration, dismissal
            and other working conditions by ensuring their equal treatment in comparison to
            nationals of that Member
            State.” (COREPER I)

          • gunnerbear

            I’d be careful what you wish for. There are millions of people who aren’t Labour voters or think that Labour no longer speaks for them.

      • Chilbaldi : ” Lets not exaggerate. Britain is currently 12-13% ethnic minority. 3% black. And it’s not wise to quote RT for these sort of things given their propensity for stirring in British affairs.”

        I quoted the RT because it was the most recent. I also posted a link to a Telegraph article who made a very similar point.
        Example 1
        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10809481/Non-white-people-almost-30-per-cent-of-population-by-2050.html
        Example 2
        http://www.leeds.ac.uk/news/article/853/uk_in_2051_to_be_significantly_more_diverse
        Example 3
        http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/06/ethnic-minority-voters-identity-politics

        Mid-high 20s to 30s is not an exaggeration.The points I made are no less accurate at the lower estimate particularly when you factor in increased European immigration. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make with that? It’s particularly more acute when you factor in mixed raced demographics.

        Chilbaldi “There are very few other cities like London in UK for ethnic diversity. Birmingham, Leicester, Bradford are very diverse. But go to Glasgow or Newcastle and you might not see a black face all weekend. Living in London, its sometimes easy to forget that”.

        Well I suppose so but there is also a need to have geographic balance too. This is one of the reasons why so many London MEPs get literally get hundreds of letters from around the country. In a multicultural society I don’t think we can allow a situation where ethnics represent “diverse” places.

        Chi Onwurah is an example of a geographic spread but she represents a “urban” city area. The only person I can think of is Lisa Nandy, most people are completely unaware of her BME background which is exactly why she doesn’t have ethnic minority issues shoved on her. We need more Lisa Nandy’s in my opinion.

        Chilbaldi ” I’m sure they would. See Chi Onwurah as an example. I’m sure if more BME candidates apply for seats elsewhere in the country then they will be selected there”.

        They do and they don’t . There is the impression that that party doesn’t interfere and that short lists would be the first instance of that. That is not the case. A lot of BME MPs and target candidates received help and lots of support. I think it’s a shame that so many of them don’t speak out more.

        Look into David Lammy’s background and how he arrived at his current position. It’s a testimony to his character that he is still talking about the issue. Where many of his colleagues are very quick to kick the ladder away.

        • Chilbaldi

          “Mid-high 20s to 30s is not an exaggeration.The points I made are no less
          accurate at the lower estimate particularly when you factor in
          increased European immigration.”

          30% is in my view an exaggeration. I doubt that will happen by 2050, largely because it is a prediction that relies on large-scale immigration.

          Re European immigration – I wasn’t counting this as BAME as most European immigrants are white, and I imagine that e.g. Poles wouldn’t count as BAME for the purpose of your BAME shortlists?

          I don’t think we need to enforce ‘geographic balance’ as you put it. I don’t think white northerners are less likely to select black candidates than white southerners, or that white people on the whole are less likely to select black candidates. Quite a few of Labour’s BAME MPs are based in the north, Onwurah and Nandy have been mentioned but also many of our asian MPs, and not forgetting Anas Sarwar who is deputy leader of the Scottish Labour Party.

          We’ve got exactly the right approach at the moment of reserving a shortlist nomination for a BAME candidate if one applies. That is an absolutely fair approach.

          I don’t think it’s fair to say that BAME MPs who don’t support BAME shortlists are ladder pullers. Firstly that isn’t fair, as there is no evidence of them limiting opportunities for BAME candidates. Secondly BAME shortlists wouldn’t be a ladder, more a playground chute. Thirdly I applaud the support available to BAME wannabe candidates and think this should be extended and well funded.

          • Chilbaldi : “30% is in my view an exaggeration. I doubt that will happen by 2050, largely because it is a prediction that relies on large-scale immigration. Re European immigration – I
            wasn’t counting this as BAME as most European immigrants are white, and I imagine that e.g. Poles wouldn’t count as BAME for the purpose of your BAME shortlists?”

            Well it’s not my number those are the parameters that experts are citing. I was making a point about diversity and public life. It’s an academic point really but I’d differentiate White from white Slavic or White Baltic particularly Baltic. Not so much a problem for parliament but I think the Labour Party should make a special effort to target Eastern Europeans and
            encourage them to become councillors etc. They certainly have a distinct culture an identity.

            Chilbaldi : “I don’t think we need to enforce ‘geographic balance’ as you put it. I don’t think white northerners are less likely to select black candidates than white southerners, or that white people on the whole are less likely to select black
            candidates. Quite a few of Labour’s BAME MPs are based in the north, Onwurah and Nandy have been mentioned but also many of our asian MPs, and not forgetting Anas Sarwar who is deputy leader of the Scottish Labour Party.

            We’ll you’re right … But they need some to select in the first place. Not so much enforce geographic balance more encourage and engineer more of a spread so they’re not all confined to London or dense ethnic or city areas, which I don’t think is healthy.

            There are quite a few BME politicians as you say but nearly all of them have urban seats or represent areas with a large ethnic contingent. If we don’t have a spread we’ll never reflect the macro numbers naturally or otherwise. Lisa Nandy represents a constituency which is 98% white and I think that’s fantastic.

            Chilbaldi “We’ve got exactly the right approach at the moment of reserving a shortlist nomination for a BAME
            candidate if one applies. That is an absolutely fair approach.”

            How is it fair on your own metric ? You’re committed to deny a candidate who is not BME should they apply. That is gerrymandering. The problem i have is it has done next to nothing to improve the situation. The fact remains that all the fiddling around the edges hasn’t amounted to a string of beans.

            I really don’t understand why we can have AWS or tolerate it and then treat this proposition as the straw that breaks the camels back. Explain that bit. AWS tolerable, we’ve had it for 10 years but this is too much…

            Chilbaldi“ I don’t think it’s fair to say that BAME MPs who don’t support BAME shortlists are ladder pullers. Firstly that isn’t fair, as there is no evidence of them limiting opportunities
            for BAME candidates. Secondly BAME shortlists wouldn’t be a ladder, more a playground chute. Thirdly I applaud the support available to BAME wannabe candidates and think this should be extended and well funded.”

            This is an opportunity that they are denying others. I’m not going to call people out but considering how many of them jump up and down during a selection election campaign their efforts have not done a jot to improve things. With one
            or two exceptions their comments and utterances in BME environments differ hugely.

            Also it’s not just about money and training it’s about connections which is why I think employing far more BME Labour members of staff is very important. If they were forced to do that you probably wouldn’t even need BME shortlists because the talent would be there trained and confident.

          • Chilbaldi

            “How is it fair on your own metric ? You’re committed to deny a
            candidate who is not BME should they apply. That is gerrymandering. The problem i have is it has done next to nothing to improve the situation. The fact remains that all the fiddling around the edges hasn’t amounted to a string of beans.

            I really don’t understand why we can have AWS or tolerate it and then treat this proposition as the straw that breaks the camels back. Explain that bit. AWS tolerable, we’ve had it
            for 10 years but this is too much…”

            I don’t agree with AWS as it discriminates completely.

            I think systems where e.g. half of the shortlist for every selection is reserved for female candidates, or e.g. one place is reserved for BME candidates. These systems work superbly for our council selections, so I don’t see why Labour shouldn’t just adopt this approach for every constituency selection.

    • Dave Roberts

      You lump all non whites as being BME or is it BAME? Did you ask a Sikh or a Chinese person if the minded being classed as such? I rather think not. The two terms are a totally fake construct by the race relations industry.

      • gunnerbear

        “The two terms are a totally fake construct by the race relations industry.” Of course they are – in the same way the race relations industry can’t handle that non-whites can be just as racist and bigoted in their attitudes as whites can be.

    • Dave Roberts

      Harman and Straw are has beens. Just looked at the racial make up of Hackney, one of the most ” diverse” boroughs in the country and the figures were very interesting.

      The 2011 census gives the white population as 54.7%. It also includes various mixed race groups and it is possible to see very light skinned people whom you would probably label black who are less than10% African Caribbean.

      The interesting thing was the following categories which you may be able to explain.

      Black/African/Caribbean/Black British: African.
      Black/African/Caribbean/Black British:Caribbean.
      Black/African/Caribbean/Black British: Other African.

      Can anyone decipher that lot? They make up just over 20% of the population.

  • JoeDM

    Shouldn’t the issue simply be: how good the candidate actually is, irrespective of sex or colour !!!

    • You are inferring that the calibre of AWS or BME shortlists might not be high enough to be Labour candidates. If they were not good enough then they would not be shortlisted typically by white officials or men. Quite the opposite is true.

      If you scout the entire country for a female or BME candidate the standard is likely to be far higher than leaving it to local chance. This is particularly important in ethnically diverse areas where the population is extremely diverse but constituency Labour Parties are disproportionately white/ male professionals.

      Before you can move to a normal system you need to redress historic injustices or deficits. On the same logic after Apartheid South Africa or segregation in the United States it would have been desirable to wait years if not decades for African Americans or Black and Mixed raced South Africans to “work their way through”. During that process their white counterparts would still enjoy a historic institutional advantage.

      Similarly whether people like it or not we live in a multicultural society. There are serious consequences of having public institutions that are not representative of ethnicity. The Police and Security services who both operate affirmative action policies are two obvious examples.

      • gunnerbear

        The Security Services are a special case – I only want those who are loyal to HMG working for them as Intelligence Officers, not believers in a religion headed by a paedophile. “affirmative action policies” – So some black lesbian gets in who’s 5ft f**k all and is expected to the job of thief taker instead of some white 6ft chap? Who would you want catching villains or patrolling your area or trying to contain a riot?

        • You can only represent society with their consent. You can only police society with their consent. The police force is not fit for purpose because they cannot effectively police huge swathes of the country. Asian grooming of young white girls is an example. How would you pick that up without detailed community work by Asian Police?

          One of the reasons the London riots were so bad is because you could not have a situation of white officers reigning down on a majority BME group without making the situation much worse. So they just stood there and let them burn down the place.

          Parliament is no different in my opinion. It needs to roughly look like the society it represents.

          • gunnerbear

            “The police force is not fit for purpose because they cannot effectively police huge swathes of the country.” – Maybe because they’re now being badly led by Senior Officers and HMG who want the police service to be more like social workers. The job of the police – as some in HMG seem to have forgotten – is that the police should be there to contain the minority and crush the scum, not police the majority going about their lawful business. “One of the reasons the London riots were so bad is because you could not have a situation of white officers reigning down on a majority BME group without making the situation much worse.” – Eh? Why not? Why all the sensitivity to the wishes of the criminals? If the bad guys are allowed to run around, everyone’s lives get worse…and spare me the s**t about SUS…..I’m a chunky lad who works shifts….where I used to live I was stopped routinely at all hours of the day and night because of high crime rates in the area and very often it was because I was also carrying a rucksack. I was once stopped by the police, entering the back yard of the shared house I lived in, at ridiculous o’clock in the morning….no big deal…they were just keeping an eye out.“So they just stood there and let them burn down the place.” There were two options; keep people as safe as possible and protect property as much as possible and contain the riot or call up huge amounts of police from other areas and deploy the Army on to the streets (just as in Belfast or Londonderry) and then let the forces of law and order loose………..you can bet if the Army and the Police were deployed in ‘full on’ public order duties, they’d have smashed the gangs, lifted the scum and yes, there’d some on the Left whining about ‘tough tactics’ despite the fact by their actions, the very forces of law and order you complain about, would have made the streets safe for those that didn’t want to be stabbed, assaulted or burned out of their homes. Hellfire, you’re demanding the Police do more in those situations yet some in the Labour Party are against the Police having water cannons.

          • ” Maybe because they’re now being badly led by Senior Officers and HMG who want the police service to be more like social workers. The job of the police – as some in HMG seem to have forgotten – is that the police should be there to contain the minority and crush the scum, not police the majority going about their lawful business.”

            Not at all. It’s because the police are not representative. How do you stop and search women if you do not have enough female police officers? If you are policing an area with a large ethnic minority population you need to reflect that. You will not be able to investigate crimes and have the trust of the community if you do not. Northern Ireland is a fantastic example of this.

            ” Eh? Why not? Why all the sensitivity to the wishes of the criminals? If the bad guys are allowed to run around, everyone’s lives get worse…and spare me the s**t about SUS…..I’m a chunky lad who works shifts….where I used to live I was stopped routinely at all hours of the day and night because of high crime rates in the area and very often it was because I was also carrying a rucksack. I was once stopped by the police, entering the back yard of the shared house I lived in, at ridiculous o’clock in the morning….no big deal…they were just keeping an eye out”.

            Why not ? Because the days /weeks after the riots the police need the trust of the community to do their job otherwise you will turn London into an American style ghetto where the police literally CANNOT police. It’s not a question of sensitivity.

            Your comments on the Army are silly. Look at what happened in Ireland when the police “smashed the gangs”. Look at the consequence of Army action. That is exactly why the police, army, elected officials need to reflect the people they serve. Do you think that would be a nice development in London?

            Some people are against water cannon because A) THE POLICE DO NOT WANT THEM BORIS JOHNSON DOES. B) THE HOME SECRETARY DID NOT WANT IT. BORIS JOHNSON DOES. C) THEY ARE EXPENSIVE.

            I think the police did the right thing because the situation would have been 10x worse had they got into a conflict. Also if you look at the riots that happened up North in Manchester and Salford which were almost exclusively white the police acted swiftly and very harshly. Why? Because the police there reflected the community and there wouldn’t be huge racial problems afterwards.

          • gunnerbear

            So according to you, if the black community is rioting and burning down cities, then the Police should stay out of the way in case it upsets the black rioters to see white coppers. ‘Outstanding’ thinking. You seem to think it was a good thing that rioters and criminal scum were allowed to run around and not be stopped in case it hurt their feelings and the feelings of their criminal scum supporters and self-proclaimed ‘community leaders’.Incidentally, the Army, UDR and RUC / PSNI were in the main not up against gangs – they were up against terrorists. A huge difference. The ‘consequence of Army action’ and the brave actions of thousands of policemen, policewomen & prison officers is that the terrorists were hammered to the point that they came to the table to talk.According to a BBC report (19th April on the BBC website) the Met do want water cannons. There was this in the Guardian as well,
            “In a statement the Met police praised the decision: “We welcome the deputy mayor for policing and crime’s decision to purchase three water cannon from Germany. We stress that these will not be deployed until or unless the home secretary authorises the use of water cannon in England and Wales.

            Following learning from the riots of 2011 the MPS requested that water cannon be made available to address a gap in public order tactics, allowing us to more effectively and safely tackle the most extreme disorder.” I thought you’d be all for them as it offers yet another tool for the police to use before they have to consider whether to use firearms.From reports in the Press the police in Manchester were able to deal with the riots quickly because they had lots of officers available and the riots were small scale – nothing to do with ethnicity.What racial problems are you concerned about? Why are you so concerned to stop the police getting into the community – any community – and rooting out the troublemakers and the criminal scum?

          • gunnerbear

            RS, You’re obviously a bright guy but on the issue of policing and what and how we want the Police to behave and how the Police should recruit…I think that, respectfully, we’ll just have to agree to disagree because I suspect we’re on the verge of trading statistics and quotes from all sorts of reports and drifting way off the topic of this thread.

          • gunnerbear

            “will turn London into an American style ghetto where the police literally CANNOT police. It’s not a question of sensitivity.”With political will and the support of Senior Officers there is nowhere in the United Kingdom where HM Constabulary can’t police. The people in the ‘can’t police communities’ have two choices to make: (a) they live, like the rest of us within the law and support the best efforts of the Police or (b) they are outlaws and so deserve the full weight of the law to descend on them.It’s a really simple equation: do you in general support the Police or are you a supporter of the idea that criminals should be allowed to act with impunity because of the colour of their skin.

          • ” The people in the ‘can’t police communities’ have two choices to make: (a) they live, like the rest of us within the law and support the best efforts of the Police or (b) they are outlaws and so deserve the full weight of the law to descend on them. ”

            You’re very trigger happy. The US has used that option. It’s lead to record numbers in jail at public expense with a high recidivism rate which costs the tax payer more. The full force of the law isn’t prevention, the “public bad” would have happened and the law would be responding to it… A terrorist attack, a rape etc etc.

            By all means arrest people who are doing wrong. When you are in situations like the London riots “the full force of the law” may very well lead to a blood bath. Particularly if they as they were have weapons and arms.

            We police by consent in the UK. Of people are not willing to talk to police about what is going on in their community then they can’t investigate. Another example would be harboring jihadist who go aboard to fight. There are thousands of such people. Why doesn’t the “full force of the law” know who they are? Why because communities whether that be neighbors or family or faith claim up.

            Another example would be the issues around “radical faith” schools in Birmingham. How did that come to pass? Teachers were calling white women whores and sluts and encouraging violence against women and jews. How did they get away with it where were the police? Well… the police didn’t know … because they could not embed in those communities . We could go on and on there are plenty more examples….

          • gunnerbear

            “because they could not embed in those communities .” – So now its the fault of the Police because they didn’t know that people who followed the teachings of a religion headed by a paedophile were doing wrong? Why did no-one in that community pick up the phone…because, of course, the people in that community did not share the same values as decent people. Theirs is a community that is fundamentally alien to the liberal values of the UK – perhaps such communities have no right to be in the UK. As to trigger happy; calling for the Police to be given access to water canons, batons, Tasers, pepper spray, shields, baton rounds, sticky foam, directed energy weapons etc. means that the Police would have lots of non-lethal choices before they had to use firearms.

          • Well yes i suppose it is the fault of the police for not having a force that can deal with the situation on the ground has it is. If the country was overrun with Spanish criminals i’d expect the police force to acquire those language skills through their officers or through translators. This is no different at all. That said the government need to take a lead on this because as we can see it’s a delicate area.

            ” Why did no-one in that community pick up the phone…because, of course, the people in that community did not share the same values as decent people. Theirs is a community that is fundamentally alien to the liberal values of the UK – perhaps such communities have no right to be in the UK.”

            That’s irrelevant. They’re here the majority of them are British born or hold British citizenship. They are not going anywhere. They cannot be deported. As a multicultural society you have one choice. Diversify your police force or retain a deficit in terms of investigating and liaising with x community group and the problems that are under the surface. There is no other option. If you have one please tell me what it is. People might not like the society we now live in but that is a different matter entirely.

            On your last paragraph. We tried that approach in Northern Ireland it didn’t work. Force is all very well and good but the community will turn on you and will become ungovernable. Just as they did in Northern Ireland. Someone gets murdered in daylight in a pub? Everybody was in the beer garden or toilet. Nobody saw anything.

            Same with the NHS. If you have a society where huge chunks of people don’t speak the language or have x cultural requirement. Two choices. Deny them a full and proper healthcare/service or recruit/compromise accordingly. We’ve decided to “recruit/compromise accordingly”.

            When people stop and really think they’ll realise that many of these gender, ethnic, language quotas are already woven throughout society. It’s funny how overtly talking about AWS or BME lists gets everybody excited as if any of it is new.

          • gunnerbear

            “That’s irrelevant. They’re here the majority of them are British born or hold British citizenship. They are not going anywhere. They cannot be deported.” – Change the law then. If your nephew or son decides to engage in a bit of terrorism – off you go to where your son or nephew has decided to go. That would focus a few family minds and it would be targeted to. “Same with the NHS. If you have a society where huge chunks of people don’t speak the language…” And there’s your problem. No ability to speak English – should mean no service. I wouldn’t expect to go abroad and get much out of foreign countries systems unless I spoke the language. Imagine that eh? No translation services – the people in the ‘ghettos’ would have to learn English or they wouldn’t get any benefits. How’s that for driving integration. Why not put that to a vote: no English, no benefits. “We’ve decided to “recruit/compromise accordingly”. – which thanks to HMGs of various colours means we’re now a magnet for just about every scrounger on the planet.

          • Change the law and send them where? Lol Where would we send the dozens of white converts crazy folk ?

            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/9379728/History-of-white-converts-caught-up-in-terrorism.html

            Go back to Leeds! Go back to Manchester !

            ” No ability to speak English – should mean no service”.

            Well it does in many EU countries the UK didn’t follow that pathway. You know very well that if we tried that … They’d be trouble 🙂 which is why we’ll muddle on like we always do.

          • gunnerbear

            Why would there be trouble? Who would complain?

          • Dave Roberts

            I’m glad you brought up the riots. Have a look at the TV footage and the people convicted and tell us about the ethnicity of the deprived people who spurned food shops, they are apparently from a marginalised underclass tat live on the edges of society, and seemed to need plasma tv,s and designer clothes.

          • gunnerbear

            Stop pointing out tricky facts!! 🙂 Again, I don’t see the colour or the rioters as being important – they are all criminal scum regardless of colour.

          • Dave Roberts

            The grooming of white girls happened under the noses of the self hating white liberals who run social services and refused to intervene in case they were called racist. Eventually enough was enough and the largely white police service intervened and dozens, yes dozens, of mainly Asian men were convicted.

            An interesting bit here from Wiki on crime and ethnic minorities in London.
            ” In June 2010 The Sunday Telegraph, through a Freedom of Information request, obtained statistics on accusations of crime from the Metropolitan Police Service. The figures showed that the majority of males who were accused of violent crimes in 2009-2010 were black. Of the recorded 18,091 such accusations against males, 54% accused of street crimes were black; for robbery, 59%; and for gun crimes, 67%”.

            I would like you to tell us how having more Chinese, Bangladeshi, Sikh or any other ethnic minority, including Europeans, will change that situation.

          • gunnerbear

            “The grooming of white girls happened under the noses of the self hating white liberals who run social services and refused to intervene in case they were called racist.” Brilliantly put. Sorry, I missed this comment when I replied to RS!!

      • Dave Roberts

        ” If you scout the country for female or BME candidate the standard is likely to be far higher than leaving it to local chance” Evidence?

        ” Before you can move to a normal system you need to address historic injustices or deficits” Can you explain this for me?

        The second part of that paragraph makes no sense which ever way it is looked at or how many times it is read.

        “Similarly whether people like it or not we live in a multicultural society” What is a multi cultural society”? If you mean it is a society where many cultures intermingle on a social basis we certainly are not.

        There are many cultures in our society and the dominant one is white European and increasingly so. White Eastern and Central Europeans living and working in the UK outnumber every other ethnic group, the Poles do that almost on their own. Do you include this group as an “ethnic minority”? Because in terms of their disparate languages and cultures and their economic reasons for leaving their homelands they most certainly are.

        I can see no campaign from the Poles, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Hungarians simply because they are to busy working, running businesses and bringing up families to be interested in politics. Like the Irish before them they almost certainly eventually will but on their own terms and at a time of their own choosing and they will not need quotas to do it but on ability.

        Your argument is essentially racist, and don’t say you can’t be because you are black, and anti white. Your argument at base is that given a level playing field all of our institutions would reflect exactly the racial mix of the country, rubbish. Hackney in north London has a massive Turkish, Vietnamese and Chinese community. Practically non of the former are involved in politics and non of the latter two. You will say this is because of racism, whatever that is, rather than these groups don’t get involved in politics.

        Your arguments like Lammy’s don’t hold water, are anti white and illegal and long may they stay that way.

        • ” If you scout the country for female or BME candidate the standard is likely to be far higher than leaving it to local chance” Evidence?

          Well logic tells you that and there is a wealth of evidence from the private sector. Look at any recruitment agency. The wider you cast the net the higher the chances that you will receive outstanding candidates by scale. That isn’t to say that they would be better than White candidates it’s to say if people aren’t applying locally then you should be able to get them from somewhere else. The whole point of a recruitment agency is to offer employers scale to attract the best and the brightest which is why their commission is so high.

          Again this is why most of the Parliament and their staffers are PPE/Oxbridge types. They all live in London and exist in the same bubble. Cast the net wider and you’re likely to find candidates that are as good with a wealth of different experiences.

          ” Before you can move to a normal system you need to address historic injustices or deficits” Can you explain this for me? I thought it was quite straight forward. There are two main arguments or you can have a mixture for justification.

          1) Ethnic minorities have historically been excluded from public life. That isn’t a just situation and I used the South African or US experience to illustrate it because most people are familiar with them. There are lots of UK examples I could have used. After they moved to an “equal footing” you wouldn’t expect the people who had previously been excluded from say education to be able to take up places in the civil service as if things were on a equal playing field.

          2) Deficits. If ethnic minorities represent 20% of the population and 2% of the seats that will inevitably create tensions. It will create exclusion and a lack of legitimacy to the point where you get serious governance issues. Tower Hamlets , Birmingham, Bradford, Harrow, Leicester are all examples of this. There is a need to have diversity of decision makers.

          You’ve not really critiqued my points about Eastern Europeans you’ve just offered a different view. They may not want that representation now and it might not be an issue now but they will follow the path of every other new group that have settled here. Jews, Irish, West indians, Pakistanis etc.

          ” Your argument is essentially racist, and don’t say you can’t be because you are black, and anti white ” .

          Why would you say that ? I think you clearly have a chip on your shoulder. Where on earth did that come from : ” and don’t say you can’t be because you are black, and anti white” . The last time I looked Jack Straw was a middle aged white man. The Last time I looked Harriet Harmen was a white woman … and Yet they were the most high profile advocates for BME shortlists.

          A very senior white lady and a very senior white man were the main advocates of the policy. Do they hate white folks ? Are they “anti white?

          Do some reading : http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/jan/24/all-black-mp-shortlists

          ” Your argument at base is that given a level playing field all of our institutions would reflect exactly the racial mix of the country, rubbish. Hackney in north London has a massive Turkish, Vietnamese and Chinese community. Practically non of the former are involved in politics and non of the latter two. You will say this is because of racism, whatever that is, rather than these groups don’t get involved in politics. ”

          Don’t put words in my mouth. I never said that. You don’t have a coherent argument so you just make things up. I said we need to make progress and have a better mix. BME shortlists don’t have to have 10 people from the same minority group. Let’s have some Chinese and Turkish people on there too … They don’t get involved because there is no voice articulating their interest as a group.

          ” Your arguments like Lammy’s don’t hold water, are anti white and illegal and long may they stay that way.”

          They are not illegal at all. The Police, Security services, Teaching professions, NHS all have similar policies. You really need to do some reading. Do you think Harriet Harmen and Jack Straw hate white people ?

          • Dave Roberts

            You have lost the argument. Racial quotas are illegal as you well know. I have asked you what is black and you cannot answer. There is no such thing as a BME or BAME community except for political and financial scammers like you.

            You are flogging a dead horse with failed Labour politicians and the Guardian as your alibis. The most under represented part of the population of this country are white working class women like my mother and many of those now claiming to be “black”.

            You have spat on them for the last forty years but the game is up. Do what the Irish and Asians did, stop whinging and get on with life. West Indians, for they are that, want special treatment, they won’t get it.

          • I’ve lost the argument because you said so ? The legality has never been tested in this context and they already exist in other areas which i’ve named. Do you deny that?

            If I used the phrase BAME community that is incorrect because there is more than one and it is not universal. That should be put down to my typing speed. You’re splitting hairs. BME communities rather than community. Well done… That doesn’t contradict any of my central arguments.

            You really do have a chip on your shoulder. Failed Labour politicians ? Harriet Harmen is the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party … Jack Straw a former Minister of Justice and Home Secretary? Really? And there White … You went on and on saying this was Racist and I’ve cited two prominent white politicians calling for it. You then skate over your own incompetence and poor grasp of this debate as if it never happened.

            i think you are an extraordinarily bitter person who has a chip on their shoulder. You are also very poorly read. Why do you keep referring to Black people or West Indians? There is also a huge deficit in Asian representation.

            Are you confused with the term BME ? Black Minority Ethnic includes Chinese, Asian, Turkish Jewish even. It is not limited to African or Caribbean. You do realise that? Here you are :Sadiq Kahn who has an Asian background calling for “ALL ETHNIC MINORITY SHORTLISTS” Where did he give the speech? Operation Black Vote :

            http://labourlist.org/2014/06/khan-comes-out-for-all-ethnic-minority-shortlists/

            So that is Harriet Harmen, Jack Straw, Sadiq Kahn and David Lammy … Hmmm

            Is he a has been ? As an Asian man is he looking for special treatment ? Lol

            Also you keep ignoring this question again and again.

            Explain why a Ethnic minority shortlist is any different to a AWS one. Why is one tolerated but the other would mean the end of the world. Please explain the central differences. I

          • gunnerbear

            “Do you think Harriet Harmen…”Err, I wouldn’t put much stock in HHs judgement given that she was screaming for AWSs to be introduced all over the place until her husband needed a seat and she thinks that if you’re on £25K you’re well off and should pay loads more taxes. Of course, Jack Straw recently gave a grovelling apology for the immigration policies that have done so much damage to the working class….and that was from a person who was a cheerleader for more ‘non white’ immigration – i.e. policies designed to harm the mainly white working class and import more Labour voters.

    • Dave Roberts

      Absolutely JoeDM. Expect an exodus of white people from the Labour Party if this one takes flight. I don’t think it will and Harriet Harman is well past her sell by date. Lammy is more and more a lightweight and the opposition will of course point the finger at Diane Abbott who is a walking disaster area.

      • Why wasn’t there an exodus of women after the introduction of All women shortlists ?

        • gunnerbear

          Why would there be an exodus of women when the AWS policy was introduced – it’s a policy that works in their favour.

          • So why would that be any different with BME candidates? Plenty of white people want more ethnic diversity too.

          • gunnerbear

            Yep…but not via exclusion. What you’re telling me is, “No matter how good you are, you’re not wanted in this area…we want a non-white….” . Thanks for that and then you say, “Ohh, by the way, we still want your vote…”

          • Nobody is saying that at all. The Labour Party has no power over who Conservatives and Liberal Democrats select. Labour would be saying this is the best we have to offer region please support us. Why does race need to enter into it ? Most members of the public couldn’t care less about how Labour selects candidates.

            Also in what way is AWS not based on exclusion? You exclude men … We do it and tolerate it so why is this so different?

          • gunnerbear

            And I wouldn’t vote for a token person picked for a position by any list – be it ‘parachuted in candidate’, non-white, women only, men only – that wasn’t open to all to apply for. The point I was making is that you want non-white shortlists – fair enough, not a position I agree with but then you also say that despite deliberately excluding me from the list (should I want to stand) that you then also want my vote. What you’re saying to me is, “Sorry, you’re the wrong sort of person to stand for us but we still want your vote”.

          • Doug Smith

            “Sorry, you’re the wrong sort of person to stand for us but we still want your vote”

            This is what the LibLabCon says to the electorate now. Why on earth do you think there’s a preponderance of Oxbridgers and wealthy personages in the HoP?

            The elite look after their own.

          • lol exactly and that is what they say to BME Liberals and Conservatives. The Liberals do not have a single BME MP not one. The Tories have recognised that they have a huge problem and they have done a fantastic job at resolving it. They didn’t use All BME shortlists they used a “A LIST system”.

          • gunnerbear

            And I wouldn’t vote for an ‘A-Lister’ either nor if I were UKIP inclined a UKIP candidate selected by Head Office diktat.

          • Well that’s fine you’ll have to speak for yourself. 10s of millions of people do it every election cycle. People talk as if this is new. The European elections is a closed list. The Labour Party uses a zipping formula which means it’s order of candidates goes Man Woman Man Woman or Woman man Woman Man… Was anybody up in arms are the recent elections ? No. That is a type of gerrymandering to promote women.

            Was anybody up in arms about the list system used for London Assembly members or Welsh and Scottish Elections ? No and No … Give me a single example of a constituency rejecting a female candidate selected by AWS.

            I’m saying that the Labour Party in accordance with changing the macro picture of ethnicity gender etc should be allowed to have All BME or Women, or even disabled lists. Why do you think AWS is tolerable (it’s been tolerated for 10 years) but this is some how “Too much or Too far” ?

            All of your critiques already apply to AWS and there is no evidence than MEN don’t vote Labour. On your last sentence BME voters could say the exact same thing should they all stop voting Labour?

          • gunnerbear

            “Give me a single example of a constituency rejecting a female candidate selected by AWS.”

            Err….how about this for a start – no AWS wanted at all, ever….

            “Ashton-Under-Lyne Labour members reject all-women shortlist….” (Manchester Evening News, March 24) but it’s ‘okay’ because the democracy that is the Labour Party HQ decided,

            “Despite the vote on Friday night, one senior Labour insider said an all-women list was still widely expected to be imposed from London, with a decision expected sometime between now and May.”

            Lo and behold, good ol’ fashioned ‘Politburo democracy’ in action,

            “National party bosses have pulled rank and insisted on an all-women shortlist – despite objections from local members”.(MEN, June 3rd 2014).

            We’ll have to wait and see if the candidate foisted on them gets voted for in the GE or if volunteers turn out to support the chosen candidate.

            And here’s another, “Cynon Valley Labour branch ‘strike’ over all-women shortlist….” (BBC, 4th July 2014).

            If the branch wishes to stay part of the Labour Party, the Branch must accept AWS and the candidate picked so it can’t ‘reject’ a candidate. Let’s just see how a possible independent challenge to the ‘official Labour’ candidate in ‘the valley’ does – seems feelings are running high – or if AC decides to stand.

            “Was anybody up in arms about the list system used for London Assembly members or Welsh and Scottish Elections ?”

            These are little more than council elections – the LA, WA and Scottish ‘govt’ exists on the goodwill of the HoC and the Executive, nothing more. The bodies you mentioned are just talking shops achieving even less than normal.

          • That didn’t answer my question. I said constituency. You are giving examples of a Constituency Labour Party.

            People on here seem to think that the general public will be up in arms if white men are prevented from standing. White men are already prevented from standing under AWS for the past 10 years. I’d like to see some examples of the General public not supporting the female Labour candidate because men were not able to participate.

            I’ve given you many examples of the Labour Party in acting policies that do the exact same thing. Europe, the Scottish and Welsh elections and the London elections. Ok you say the London elections are little more than a council election, ok then lets trial the BME Shortlisting idea in that arena…

            I really don’t think you can call the Welsh Assembly or Scottish Parliament little more than councils ? The people the create the fuss are actually party members not the public. If we select a candidate by BME OR AWS list the general public would literally be none the wiser. All they would see is X OR Y in a red tie. The people who make the noise are the party members. It’s the same in the Tory Party.

            The public have never been up in arms about AWS. I’m curious why people think that “ethnicity” in the exact same context is somehow the straw that breaks the camels back or a step too far .Nobody has explained that. We tolerate AWS so why do folks think that the public wouldn’t tolerate a BME version?

          • gunnerbear

            I don’t think non-white only shortlists are the straw etc…it’s the whole idea of ‘special groups’ getting seats. We don’t have many deaf people in the HoC – why not give them some slots…ohh but wait…which ones…the black or the white deaf people? Hang on, we don’t have many blind people either….ahh…s**t same issue…which ones…white, black man or woman….f**k this handing out goodies to groups is tricky….umm…we don’t have enough non-university types in the HoC…right we’ll have to fix that……..I’m not just against the idea of non-white selection, I’m against the whole f**king idea of special selection processes for ‘favoured sons and daughters’. Hang on, you’ve only mentioned non-white selection, I take it you’ll be demanding a selection list for say Asian lesbians and Black homosexuals? I mean following your logic, why not?

          • jay

            Some years ago I had a barbecue at my place in Peckham.
            There was a mix of my working-class friends (as I am) and middle-class friends (I had a professional job). An Afro-Caribbean neighbour (middle-class professional) brought her man, a black intellectual radical (middle class). She
            spoke to my working-class Afro-Caribbean friends and even danced with one or two of them. Mr Radical Chic boyfriend spoke only to middle-class white people. My Afro-Caribbean working-class friends mixed with everyone.

            Next day I am cleaning up and my middle-class black neighbour comes flying into the house and immediately asks me how I knew ‘’Those guys’’! She went on about how ‘real’ they were. It was kind of gushing and embarrassing.
            But it tells you something very important which was confirmed by many other experiences in London. The black community is the same as the white community – it is a
            fiction. It is divided by class and by place of origin. There is a sweeping under the carpet of inter-ethnic troubles in the black community in London. Whites on the left are expected to believe that a BME person has some magical power due to the colour of their skin that gives them the capacity
            to represent the needs of citizens and migrants of Asian and African and Afro-Caribbean descent from a couple of dozen highly different cultures and nations. And what is this area of expertise that the BME activists MUST focus upon in order to generate the commonality that they represent? Racism. That is the only card they have to play. And by God they overplay it. They keep racism at the top of the agenda. Without it, they are political nonentities.

            I do not want any kind of positive discrimination to help BME middle-class activists become MP’s on the basis that they represent the BME community. They do not.

            The last thing I need is another lecture from a middle-class BME on racism. They have no understanding f working-class experience and they just cannot get their heads around the reality that the most troublesome inter-ethnic disputes in London do NOT involve white people.

          • gunnerbear

            Careful Jay – if you keep pointing out that there are differences between people of the same skin colour, you’ll end up ruining RS’s careful viewpoint. I know what you mean though – I’ve more in common with a black electrician or an asian shopkeeper who is working are working their b***s off for long hours every day than I have with a white barrister or white surgeon or white teacher or asian university lecturer.

          • So I need to be educated about my own community from someone who is outside it? It wasn’t even as if she/she was correct.

            Yes there are class differences between BME groups. So What? But that does not mean there is not common cause that exist across an ethnic group basic things like language is one obvious example. Religion is another. Don’t those things exist? I also pointed out how a middle or a working class or a BME person will still disproportionately get stopped by the police or will suffer institutionalised forms of racism as will their children etc etc.

            If you’re actually interested in this topic google some of the difficulties White mothers with mixed raced children have and how many struggle to navigate that minefield particularly as single mothers.

          • gunnerbear

            Hang on…I’m white….why don’t I bitch about getting stopped more than some of my mates? On one notable occasion at a major football match, I had to change my route home because a couple of officers couldn’t believe that I had just finished work (hence the heavy boots and jeans) and that I wasn’t ‘out and about’ to create mayhem. Not a big deal, shrug your shoulders and pick a different walk home and a different shortcut to the boozer. See the Police making judgements about people happens all the time…..it’s what they do. Guess what…I’d reckon that in ‘stock-broker belt towns’, most of the people convicted for drink driving, are white, male and drive big cars…..thus guess who the police are going to stop more often?

          • Very few “Black middle class people” to quote you, started off middle class. Certainly almost none of our second generation BME MPs. There children might enjoy that upbringing but they didn’t.

            Ethnic minorities have shared experiences you don’t have to be the same. Stop and search is on example. Job opportunities is another example. There are lots of examples about people with “funny names” not getting interviews compared to English Names : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20608039. Your black or asian middle class neighbor will get stopped the same way disproportionately in the street or an airport. Their children will face institutionalised discrimination and so on.

            Also I would like to point out that it is not BME people who run the establishment or broadsheet newspapers or typically conduct all this research. Who was it that said the Police were “institutionally racist” ?

            Also as a society we tolerate this very thing done for Gender. We’ve had AWS for 10 years …

          • gunnerbear

            “Very few “Black middle class people” to quote you, started off middle class.” Guess what….very few white people start of as middle class either.

          • Yes you’re right. The difference being when Margaret Thatcher, John Major, David Davis all white and formally “working class” became “middle class” they looked sounded and acted and became indistinguishable from the white middle upper class establishment that was already there. It’s not for me to say this but : I doubt whether white working class people are too interested in those people or see them as “champions”

            In my opinion no matter how educated a ethnic minority person is no matter how posh they are they are never going to fit in with the “establishment” in this country. They’ll get stopped just like any ethnic minority working class person by the police disproportionately. They’ll suffer from institutionalised forms of racism, as will their children. You can can better yourself and be middle class but your ethnicity can’t be changed and that is an issue. There is plenty of videos and studies of ethnic minorities having make overs and being treated completely differently on you tube.

            Also the application link proves that. Good qualifications same qualifications as a English name and the “weird name” goes in the bin.

            Class is very important but so is ethnicity.

          • gunnerbear

            “In my opinion no matter how educated a ethnic minority person is no matter how posh they are they are never going to fit in with the “establishment” in this country.” Well in my opinion a chap who is a black barrister is a member of ‘The Establishment’. Do you reckon a black QC or black judge isn’t a member of the Establishment? D’ya reckon Lord Taylor isn’t a member of the Establishment – hellfire the man fiddled his expenses, can you get much more Establishment than that? Do you think Lady Nina Bracewell-Smith isn’t a member of the Establishment or Trevor Philips isn’t? “There is plenty of videos and studies of ethnic minorities having make overs and being treated completely differently on you tube.” – Given the current climate of difficult it is to get rid of people and the stonking costs firms can face even in vexatious race related claims, even if they’ve done nothing wrong, is it any wonder they’re careful who they recruit. Of course David Lammy is stirring it and there is a huge race relations industry looking for work and taxpayers cash – that industry has got to keep the pot boiling.

          • FMcGonigal

            “Give me a single example of a constituency rejecting a female candidate selected by AWS
            “In 2005 “anti-AWS independent candidate Peter Law won the Blaenau Gwent constituency in Wales beating Maggie Jones who had been selected using Labour’s All-women shortlist policy
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-women_shortlists

          • Thank you for that I wasn’t aware , he then lost his seat to a Labour male spad. That’s one example AWS has been used hundreds of times so far with 1 major hiccup in Wales. Good point though thanks.

          • No matter how good a Man is he isn’t wanted in a area that has an All Woman’s short list. What’s the difference ? Society already tolerate that … How is this any different?

            It’s as if you’re saying affirmative action for women is legitimate but not so for ethnic minorities based on the same criticisms that apply to all women shortlists.

          • gunnerbear

            Are you not reading – I’m against any form of shortlists that are based on barring types of people from standing.

          • Dave Roberts

            Robert isn’t paying attention gunnerbear.

        • Dave Roberts

          No idea, have you?

        • jay

          Why do black people complain about representation yet 17% of non-whites and 36% of Africans fail to register? I lived in Peckham for years. Streets crowded with black folk. But not one regularly attended party meetings.

          Instead of seeking favours and bias, get out and activate the apathetic.

          • I wouldn’t describe equality as seeking favour and bias. You could make the same argument and use the same language to describe maternity or paternity leave.

            I know Peckham very well, well enough to know that the African and Caribbean Community are a fundamental component to Labours electoral strategy in that area, as they are in Lewisham and Hackney and Barking and Dagenham. Compare that reality with BME representation at the council level. If they are not well represented and in positions of influence is it any wonder you have so much apathy ?

            Also you can make the same charges about white working class residents all around the country. Registration is a known problem that effects “Left” core support all around the world. Famously so in the US.

            ” But not one regularly attended party meetings.”

            That’s sad. However if the door is open and nobody walks though it the problem does not go away. You still have a representation problem which will feed though into public services particularly housing, and education.

            It’s as if you’re saying well they don’t want to get involved so we have to live in the current situation as if that does not have consequences. Look at Tower Hamlets. Look at Birmingham, Look at what recently happened in Bradford look at what happened with defections in Harrow and the huge cost to the community and Party. There are consequences.

          • jay

            So in the 19th century the working-class should have waited until the middle class gave them the vote, gave them union rights? No campaigns, no demonstrations, just appeals? If you want rights you have to work for them and claim them not seek favours.

            Black citizens have equal rights. Let them use them.

          • Class and ethnicity are very different things particularly in a multicultural society. The society does not work if there is a deficit. Working class people got the vote because society cohesion was breaking down. You say no Campaigns, no demonstrations … What do you think all these MPs who are coming out for All BME shortlists are doing ? The most high profile ones aren’t even BME they are white.

            You haven’t answered any of my points from the other post.

            If the door is open and people do not walk in you still have a problem. That is exactly why the Security Services and Police have affirmative action for BME candidates. I trust the MI5/6 and the Police are not diluting the quality of their staff by having that type of policy.

          • gunnerbear

            Fair enough but I reckon they might be. I’ll take it as read, from now then, following your logic, “that a non-white officer only got in because white candidates were excluded to suit a political agenda and therefore they are not to be trusted as they don’t represent ‘my community'” – do you realise how stupid that statement sounds but that is exactly what you’ve been saying – that only blacks can represent blacks or that only Asians can stand up for Asians and that only black officers can be used to police ‘black areas’. You see that’s maybe the difference between you and I, in that I don’t see a “Black Police Officer”, I see a dedicated Police Officer who happens to be Black.

          • Well I do see a Black officer, there are so few I can’t help it.

            I’ll give you one example. .

            Take the Asian grooming issue. There was a huge amount of abuse of young white girls going on in the midlands typically. The police literally hadn’t a clue. No idea. Hundreds of white working class girls from difficult homes were abused not randomly but because they were white girls. Raped by many men. All covered up by the “community”.

            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10060570/Oxford-grooming-gang-We-will-regret-ignoring-Asian-thugs-who-target-white-girls.html

            There are many more articles like that.

            Explain to me how in a multicultural society we will prevent that without having more Asian officers on the ground who can police that community, who have the necessary cultural and language skills? Are you suggesting that white police officers could properly do that work ? That is exactly why the Police bend over backwards to recruit BME officers.

            You can make the same argument for issues around gangs and guns or drug trafficking. The reality is we live in a multicultural society and our institutions will work better if that’s reflected. It doesn’t matter if it’s the NHS, Parliament, The Army the same arguments apply.

          • gunnerbear

            Fine, let the blacks, the Asians, the Chinese, the Fijians all apply on equal terms, the same as everyone else for the position.It is strongly alleged that the reason action wasn’t taken sooner…is you guessed it, the scum would cry racism…..just as all the scum always do….nothing to do with the authorities not being aware of it.

          • But that’s just it … ” the same as everyone else for the position” … lol like AWS … Someone needs to explain at some point why we can have AWS but not this. Why that is tolerable and this is not. The system is already rigged for a desired outcome.

            That’s a moot point really. If you having “issues” that take place exclusively in x community then whether you are aware of it or not you need to investigate it. Can that be done best with non Asian officers? No. It’s not just the Asian community either you can look at people trafficking and Eastern Europeans or African and Caribbean issues around gun crime.

            Are you denying that the police force needs to be adequately “diverse” to deal with those issues? I’d like to hear that argument if so. All I’m saying is there is no difference between that and parliament and nobody has put up a particularly good argument against that.

          • gunnerbear

            Again, I’m against all forms of shortlists, special selection processes and the like designed to favour one group or other. I know, if its such a great idea, why don’t we get the NHS to pick surgeons on skin colour rather than ability – fancy being operated on by a Asian who’s been picked for being Asian not because they are any good? If skewed selection is so great, why don’t we let pilots into the cockpit based on their skin colour – fancy being on an aircraft piloted by a Chinese woman, ooh…double hit on the ‘minorities board – woman and ethnic….rather than someone who can fly the damn aircraft well?

          • Well if they have a public function we do … The Army uses Affirmative action and has initiatives that target ethnic minorities and women. I’m not sure about the Navy.

            The US has always done that, even during segregation. That’s exactly why they can deploy a force anywhere in the world and have no language or ethnicity issues.

          • gunnerbear

            Have you got a link please for the British Army using affirmative action i.e. promoting or recruiting non-whites over whites? Targeted recruitment drives are not affirmative action because HM Forces are always short of personnel so aim to recruit as widely as possible, they always have done. There is very much equality of opportunity in HM Forces but promotions etc. are granted on merit not skin colour. For example, the men in the Parachute Regiment that have passed ‘P’ Company are all there – regardless of skin colour – because they’ve met the rigid standards required to earn the right to wear the beret. Skin colour has nothing to do with it and anyone can have crack at the course – either trying to join the regiment directly from civilian life or via courses run for those who are already soldiers.

          • That’s not what affirmative action is.

            ” Affirmative action is the policy of providing special opportunities for, and favoring members of, a disadvantaged group who suffer from discrimination. ”

            Targeted recruitment fits that definition and what is going on certainly fits that definition. Particularly BME graduates
            : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9317898/Threats-to-Army-units-failing-to-recruit-ethnic-minorities.html

            “The British Army needs to reflect British society,” he said. “This is clearly a challenge now; to recruit from the ethnic minorities within British society in proportions that reflect that society.” < And that' from a Tory Defense Minister ! Why should parliament be any different ?

            “While we are determined to maintain an effective regimental system, it must be based on the realities of today, and the primacy of capability. That means focusing on analysis of recruitment performance, demographic trends and future recruiting needs.”

            This is interesting :

            " Sources insisted there is no question of setting quotas for units, but ministers are understood be worried that the Army is failing to recruit enough black and Asian Britons, with particular concerns over recruitment in cities in northern England "

            However :
            Speaking at an Army conference yesterday, Mr Hammond laid out the criteria on which units will be judged, including “recruitment performance”.

            So they are being judged by diversifying intake (just like universities are). That's as good as affirmative action by the back door. They are telling the army : We want to see more Black and Brown faces. But there are no quotas. But you are being judged on how many black and brown faces we see… So guess what the army is doing ?

            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2156152/Army-chief-demands-women-ethnic-troops.html They're clearly doing it .

            Equality of opportunity necessitates that you are in the room to start with. I'm not saying they're fast tracking people up the ranks but they are certainly using affirmative action tactics to change outcomes… This sort of gerrymandering is everywhere it really is not new at all.

            Again this

          • gunnerbear

            No, they are desperate to recruit….HM Forces take candidates from the Commonwealth. If two lads turn up to join say the Royal Regiment of Scotland, they’ll both get at a crack at selection and training because the Army needs manpower. Nothing to do with skin colour. What HM Forces have known for years is that it’s a really good idea to recruit as widely as possible in order to maximise the Army’s ‘footprint’ across the UK. But the key point is, that recruitment is open to all,….whites aren’t turned away to replaced by blacks or Asians. Women aren’t selected ahead of guys. The bright – well bright-ish – men and women at RUSI / MoD / CDS levels have been saying this for decades – recruit as widely as possible but do not favour selection of one group. Do not alter standards to suit one group.

          • I don’t buy that and I don’t think they do that in reality. If you do not speed up recruitment you will not close the gap. Targeting BME applicants is itself a bias. If you send out 100,000 letters in Northern Ireland expect lots of recruits to filter through …

          • gunnerbear

            Because of the nature of the tasks that HM Forces have to undertake, the standards can’t vary to favour certain groups for reasons of good ol’ fashioned military necessity. If a chap attempts, say ‘P’ Company, he either passes or fails – no more, no less regardless of skin colour. If a chap fancies a crack at being a Royal Marine, he either passes or fails – regardless of skin colour. The RMs binned a Prince for not making the standards required – they have no issues with binning anyone if those individuals don’t make the required standards. Likewise for the Royal Navy – if a person wants to be a RN Diver, they take the course and either pass or fail. The people in each military unit rely and trust the fact that the person beside them is there, not because of their skin colour, but because they can do the job.

          • gunnerbear

            “Speaking at an Army conference yesterday, Mr Hammond laid out the criteria on which units will be judged, including “recruitment performance”.”
            In terms of HM Forces this is nothing to do with skin colour – it’s all to do with numbers and maintaining units. For example, two units struggling to fill slots are both at risk under ‘recruitment criteria guidelines’ because they are both understrength and face possible mergers into other units i.e. the primacy of capability. Also do you think the Parachute Regt and the Royal Marines would be at risk if they didn’t recruit a single non-white or conversely became majority non-white? Do you think the Scots guards would be abolished if they became all white? It’s about capability not skin colour.

          • And if they needed to be deployed as they are being in the Middle East? or Africa or South America? They’re putting pressure on them to recruit a diverse force in a timely way. I think an all white force could do the job but they’d be operational issues. Can they be overcome ? Yes probably but scale dictates that you just have a diverse force it’s easier.

            Skin colour or ethnicity is a “capability issue” How many white officers will have the necessary language skills or local credibility? France is the gateway to North and central Africa because of culture and language… Look at the French soldiers used in those peace keeping missions…. All on google ….

          • gunnerbear

            “How many white officers will have the necessary language skills or local credibility?” – How many Black officers would have ‘local credibility’ in Sangin? How many Asians officers would? Note that they’d all have to get through RMAS first….As to the French forces deployed into Africa – they all looked a mixed bag as you’d expect given the make-up of the force.

          • gunnerbear

            “Equality of opportunity necessitates that you are in the room to start with.”If you want to join HM Forces, if you don’t fall into the categories for disbarment, you’ll get a crack at joining – man, woman, black or white or Asian or Jewish or Catholic or Jedi. Equality of opportunity already exists but yes HM Forces are desperate to try and try and get more candidates through the doors – I agree with you on that, which is why they also push the Army Apprenticeships as well to young men and women (of all skin colours).

          • They target all applicants and then target ethnic minority ones under some other pretext … That’s clearly working to an agenda in my opinion…

          • gunnerbear

            Sorry, you’ve lost me – affirmative action means that weaker candidates or candidates from a certain group gets special treatment to advance or get in places e.g. Uni slots. That’s a long way from what HM Forces are doing – they are trying to get as many people through the doors as possible and also trying to make sure at the same time that the recruitment process hasn’t missed any potential recruits. The process is not saying “no, no whites, just blacks” or “no men, just women….”. It is exactly the opposite, HM Forces are casting the net as widely as possible without fear or favour.

      • gunnerbear

        DR, it’s just more peripheral b******ks as the Labour Party casts around for something to blame for their failure to be anywhere near HMG.

    • Ben Cobley

      Patronage, favouritism – not very One Nation Labour is it? The interest groups must be fed though, and what the women’s group has benefitted from the BME group want too. It’s understandable, but could be the death of Labour as a national party. If you define yourself so overtly in favour of certain groups and against others, there’s probably no going back.

      http://afreeleftblog.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/one-nation-quotas-uniting-by-division.html

      • gunnerbear

        “It’s understandable, but could be the death of Labour as a national party. If you define yourself so overtly in favour of certain groups and against others, there’s probably no going back.” Well said.

        • Well look at the Republican Party in the US … Lol why are they in that mess?

          • gunnerbear

            Because the Republican Party in the US is extremely right wing. It’s off the scale in terms of UK politics. Why did Labour let in so many non-whites immigrants in when it was in power in the UK and also pushed through postal voting with no real ID checks?

          • There are plenty of Conservative Black and Hispanic Americans. They do not plump with the Republicans. Why? Because they have made no effort to court those ethnic groups. Political parities need to be aware of the power of the Ethnic minority vote. It’s going to become more not less important.

            The Conservative “A-lists candidates” were basically an elite team who were put up against “normal” candidates without that training. It’s worked for them. As i’ve previously said the Conservatives have nearly as much BME representation in Parliament as Labour.

          • gunnerbear

            “Because they have made no effort to court those ethnic groups.” What do you mean by that exactly Surely if you are a Republican, regardless of colour, (to shorthand): you want strict immigration policies, free gun laws, low taxation, strong defence and law & order, stiff sentences.

          • Well that’s not how politics works unfortunately. You can have as many people on here do , absolutist positions: We should have a battle of ideas and everything should be subordinate to that. That is not how Party politics works. Sure complain, but that’s not how it works.

            If the Republicans adopt your reasoning they will not win another Presidential Election for a very long time if at all. They only won 1 Presidential election since George Bush Snr … Obama is the first President in history to have a deficit of white male voters and still win an election.

            The electoral college works differently and African Americans and Hispanic Americans currently hold or will hold the balance in the next 10-15 years in lots of swing states. Taxas for example could easily go blue in 2 election cycles.

            The fact that they do not have enough Hispanic and African American candidates his a huge contributory factor to their electoral fortunes. You’re right to point to those conservative values but they are often subordinated in place of “ethnic issues” which often trump “normal” policy discussions. Who is doing the most for “my community” which might be defined by class but many people place a premium on ethnicity.

            The Democrats understand that which is why they dominate those areas. The same is historically true for Labour in the UK but the Conservatives are now quietly pushing that agenda too.

          • gunnerbear

            “You’re right to point to those conservative values but they are often subordinated in place of “ethnic issues”” Is ‘ethnic issues’ code for “We as ‘X’ (insert self-justifying whining group if choice) are not making it because we don’t take education seriously, we’re not making it because we’ve got a gang culture, we’re not making it because we….(insert excuses of choice)…so we need special rights because we can’t cope with the modern world….”

          • Perhaps, if so white politicians need to pull their finger out because white working class boys get the worst qualifications of any other ethnic group … So no i don’t think it’s because ethnic minorities a) don’t take education seriously b) have a gang culture :

            : http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/white-working-class-boys-do-worst-in-school-claims-major-new-report-9543843.html

            That said even with all of the problems within ethnic minority communities they are still all surpassing white working class boys. That suggests that gender and ethnicity is playing an issue there. Gender and ethnicity clearly impact politics and policy.

  • swatnan

    Trust Lammy to be the last to jump on the evergrowing demand for an ABAMES.
    As Parmajit so aptly points out there are an invisable 30 + more BAME MPs who could be made visable in 2015. I hope Parmajit is one of them and goes for the Speakership once again. A young Speaker would be welcome instead of the old fogeys the House is usually lumbered with.

  • robertcp

    The MPs mentioned might be living proof that all BME shortlists are not needed!

  • jaime taurosangastre candelas

    I do not agree with you, as I think that democracy should be about ideas, policies, practical action and the results of delivery, not some arbitrary numbers game.

    It should not matter the skin colour, sex, ability or disability of my MP, or her or his social background, it should be about outcomes.

    If you want to play the “representation” game, it is not too hard in either MathCAD or Excel to construct an algorithm that quite excitingly is a multi-variate solution that allows a nearly perfect candidate selection criteria not just for all women, but that allows for a nearly perfect representation of society (even at the constituency level, assuming you have the data), and to make sure that colours, creeds, abilities, religion, gender and environmental opinions are perfectly balanced and representative for any constituency. If the Labour Party wants to buy the algorithm from me they certainly may, but I think it is a useless distraction.

    It should be about ideas held and expressed by the candidates, and whether they have the capability to transform them into practical outcomes.

    • rekrab

      Pretty much another load of useless information Jaime, picking the perfect candidate by an algorithm match doesn’t automatically mean that the constituents will get their perfect budget to introduce all their desired constituent wants.

      If you want to get practical and look for some steps forward from out of the ashes of community despair, then back the idea that it is the level of deprivation and poverty that is the largest culprit of misrepresentation.

      For centuries this nation has always favoured those with the most and it’s done very little to really help close the differentials between the haves and have nots.How much is enough Jaime? and how can anyone that earns 10 to 15 times more than an ordinary labourer ever represent a whole constituency fairly? We need more Dr’s more teachers and more manufacturing jobs and we should be reducing hours of employment and distributing higher earning positions two fold.

      • gunnerbear

        What exactly do you mean by high earning and distributing those positions? Most high earning positions require very good education. How are you going to deal with that….by putting some pig-s**t thick unemployable type into a doctors slot? Don’t forget, high earning these days means those on £25K…’cause Harriet H. said so. You remember her don’t you…..she’s the one screaming for all women shortlists…..unless it’s her husband looking for a seat on the taxpayer funded gravy train.

        • rekrab

          High earning! above £50,000
          Distributing, creating more employment by reducing hours for higher earning workers, some may refer to it as job share.

          Where have I suggested changing the educational criteria for employing Doctors?

          Well, two 25k jobs sounds better than one 50k job, don’t you think so?

          • jaime taurosangastre candelas

            There are 7 years of training. Quite right you don’t wish to change that.

            But if your “going rate” after 7 years of training plus about 5 years post qualified experience is £25,000, rather than the current rate of about £50,000, you will see two part timers disappear to Australia, Canada, the USA or somewhere else where they will earn more than £50,000, and 2 gaps appear on British rosters.

            You really have not thought this through Derek.

            Now, are you prepared to halve your hours, and earnings?

          • rekrab

            Why is it that when someone suggest an idea that would create more employment by reducing the hours of work at the same rate, people start saying their off, their setting their sights on greener pastures because all things are fundamentally set around monies?

          • jaime taurosangastre candelas

            Because that is life. People like hearing about new jobs being created by growth, not by being told to halve their own hours and income.

            No one normal could cope with their income being halved overnight, no one who has to do 7 years of training would willingly work part time for half the money when they could earn the proper rate in another English speaking country (with better weather and society). I think your concept is mad. It would create critical shortages of publicly paid employees, because the private sector are not going to be forced into this.

            On a mathematical point, you are not creating more employment, as the hours are the same. You are dividing the hours by 2.

          • rekrab

            Why? if this country has the power to legislate, then why can’t we enshrine in law that public health should never be oppressed by private wealth and the constitutional right to health care at the point of no cost is absolute.

          • gunnerbear

            “the constitutional right to health care at the point of no cost is absolute.” Eh? The NHS isn’t free – it’s paid for by taxes – because the NHS costs cash unless you think that medicines, equipment are free and that people are working for nothing.

          • rekrab

            Yes universal taxation is in work however there are those unfortunate not to be in employment.

          • jaime taurosangastre candelas

            I don’t see any logic at all in your first paragraph, it seems unrelated to anything being discussed.

            As for your second, there are about 3 million unemployed, so I take it that you would like to match those people to 3 million employed people, and make them job share? That is not very fair, is it, if you are one of those employed 3 million suddenly losing half of your income, when your brother does not have his job matched? And how do you plan to match an unemployed bricklayer in Exeter to take half of the job of an employed bricklayer in Darlington? The commuting is going to be expensive. Or do you retrain the man in Exeter to become a baker, and tell his already a baker neighbour that his income just got reduced by 50%? And that is before you start thinking about the high salary jobs, because typically they take time to train for, experience, and very few people with the skills for high salary jobs are unemployed.

            Even by your standards Derek this idea is completely idiotic.

          • rekrab

            It’s would you couldn’t give a dam about where the NHS in heading in terms of private procurement use and you obviously hold dear the Thatcher government saying that unemployment is a price worth paying.

            Your kinda adding arms and legs to justify your bewildering point.

            Standards? Do you have any?

          • gunnerbear

            “It shows you couldn’t give a dam about where the NHS in heading in terms of private procurement use….”Eh? Where does that come from in what JTC was saying? The points are real world issues that you’d have to deal with. If you are saying that you want to chop medics salaries and hope for the best, so be it, but I reckon (like JTC) that all that would happen is; (a) All the decent medics go and (b) massive shortages that you’d try and fill with s**t ones. All you are saying is that you hope chopping a surgeons pay down to a doctors and doctors pay down to a nurses, you’d get more people doing those jobs….frankly I think that is, most respectfully, insane as a plan.

          • rekrab

            Garbage! your such sucking up on those tory toes, Million more need the opportunity to do a great job, millions more need to earn around the £50,000 GBP per year, low pay must be eradicated and top pay must be reduced to manage the up take, not since Robert Owen’s New Lanark experiment has there been a restructuring of working hours and from the year dot those at the higher end of earnings have maintained their iron grip at the top, the time has come for all citizens to be allowed the dignified path of decent pay and good jobs, you can continue to be stuck in your hole, I’ll continue to call for the mass climb, com on the people!!!!!!

          • gunnerbear

            I’ve just go to ask….what do you class as top pay? “millions more need to earn around the £50,000 GBP per year” Well in that case those millions better get qualifications and in the fields of work that pay that…..or are you forgetting that if all earn £50k….the loaf of bread will be very expensive indeed….. What exactly do you class as decent pay?

          • rekrab

            Why do you think the disparity in pay is such a good idea?

            Since GDP was created lower valued jobs have receded year in year out in pay awards, where it is almost a cert the gap gap can’t be bridged with out a proper look at better distribution and hours worked.

          • gunnerbear

            I don’t think that massive pay disparity is a good idea but…..if HMGs of all colours promote a skills and services and economy that is exactly what happens………those with low skills or a skill easily replaced drop into low pay brackets, the middle class jobs either migrate towards the top pay or low pay depending on the field of work and the top pay, ‘high skill’ jobs get lots of pay.

          • rekrab

            Look, because the skill base is so low then by reason our education system is only set up deal with a few successes.

          • gunnerbear

            jtc, stop being so practical – you know it s**ts on their ‘utopian ideal’ when you bring in real world effects.

          • rekrab

            Hail the great one, who thinks all is good and ok!

            Pssss! wake up Gunner!

          • gunnerbear

            But jtc is correct. How do you get around the points he’s raised? You want the scheme, surely you should have the answers.

          • rekrab

            Why is JCT correct in your opinion?

          • gunnerbear

            Because, and I admire your idealism, the points raised by JTC are exactly those that have to be addressed in the real world. If you want to make ‘one job the property of two people’, then you’ve got to (a) explain how the initial job holder can now live on 50% of the pay and (b) how the second person is going to do the job.

          • rekrab

            Don’t you think low pay and poverty of success should be addressed in the real world.

            Frankly I’m looking to phase in the earners above £100,000k not by cutting their wages but by reducing their working week, People should be able to manage on 50k, especially when some manage on a 10th of that?

            By doing the job the same way? I’m not looking for bricklayers to suddenly become Doctors? I’ve said before that the format of learning shouldn’t change.

          • gunnerbear

            If you want to cut my hours and let me keep the same income great, If not, respectfully, go away and chop your own pay.

          • rekrab

            Do you earn over £50,000 a year?

          • gunnerbear

            Not even close!

          • gunnerbear

            “because all things are fundamentally set around monies?” In this world – yep. You need cash to do keep the ‘wolf from the door’.

          • rekrab

            So isn’t it more important to find employment for those who need one?

          • gunnerbear

            Wouldn’t dispute the need for well paid jobs but why do you want to hammer those who already have one?

          • rekrab

            At what bracket would you deem a well paid job and how much is enough?

          • gunnerbear

            I reckon a GP on £100K is well paid but chopping their pay isn’t going to create more GPs. I think a Headteacher on £80-90K is very well paid but again cutting their pay isn’t going to create more headteachers. Even under communism, some people earned more than others for responsibility or skills and what not. That’s why a saturation diver can earn some serious cash and a dinner lady or young chap behind the counter at a bank doesn’t earn as much.

          • rekrab

            Two four hour shifts would require two people. That’s a fact!

          • gunnerbear

            Sorry, you’ve lost me a bit. If you cut a GPs pay to say £50K all that is going to happen is that you’ll get fewer GPs as highly intelligent, highly skilled people like doctors will simply go abroad so you need to find even more people capable of being GPs….

          • rekrab

            It isn’t a pay cut it is a cut in hours worked allowing for the enhancement of more jobs. I thought you understood that bit?

          • gunnerbear

            Do you think an employer is going to pay two people the full wages of £50K each to do the job of one person?

          • rekrab

            OK, lets draw it out again.
            One person does 4 hours, then goes home as the other person covers the remaining four hours and so on for 24/7, if you can’t get that, leave your address and I’ll forward an easy to read map!

          • gunnerbear

            How many jobs do you know of that require the presence of someone 24/7 that aren’t already done by the use of cover etc. or are you saying that every job should now be done 24/7?

          • rekrab

            No!

          • jaime taurosangastre candelas

            Are you still banging on with the most stupid idea on the internet, and now bringing to bear what is frankly primary school mathematical proof?

          • rekrab

            Thanks, but where is the apology?

            Where have all the good people gone’Greed has taken them one by one, long time ago!

          • gunnerbear

            “Are you still banging on with the most stupid idea on the internet…” C’mon, that’s harsh.

          • rekrab

            Harsh? more like a scratchers post.

          • rekrab

            Although I wouldn’t agree with all NEF has to say there is some good logic in their findings and studies.

            http://www.neweconomics.org/publications/entry/21-hours

          • gunnerbear

            The report says, “Experiments with shorter working hours suggest that they can be popular where conditions are stable and pay is favourable,” I think that means ‘shorter hours are welcomed provided pay ain’t cut’ – which falls into the category of ‘statement of the f**kin’ obvious’.

          • rekrab

            Yeah! that your paid for the hours you F****** work!
            Jeez! get a grip.

          • gunnerbear

            So which £50K job would you split in two then? C’mon, give a selection.

          • rekrab

            You want me to answer your own question?

          • rekrab

            And I’m asking why your so opposed to creating more employment by reducing working hours?

            If we can’t bridge the disparity of pay and the mindless continuation that only a certain amount can afford a comfortable life style how will there ever be peace in such a divide nation?

          • gunnerbear

            “And I’m asking why your so opposed to creating more employment by reducing working hours?”

            Because in the real world that means a pay cut for me and everyone else working. In your case you want to make a 50K a year job two jobs – that’s going to cut someone’s pay by 50% and make them less earn than the average wage (although according to HH that still means you should pay more tax).

            Reckon you could afford to take a 50% pay cut?

            Likewise you might say okay then cut a 40K a year job in two – fine employers chop wages for two people down to £20K instead of paying one person £40k (around what a police sergeant or moderately experienced teacher can look to earn.

            Would you want to lose £20K? What about a mortgage or car payments or the myriad of other things a family might have to pay for? You going to tell the banks, “s’okay, we’ve cut their pay by 50%, you’ll just have to do with them never paying back their debts….”?

          • rekrab

            But if your going to continue playing silly adds add on’s then if the job market is more than healthy those who wish may want to continue with a 40 hour week doing two jobs.

            Someone in Jaime’s position on say £76,000 could then utilise his sporting knowledge in ruby and take the school ruby team on as coach or take a more active gardening role, His wife is a major share holder in a vets practice, it is not unusual for professional careerist to marry another professional.

            All in all in if the white heat employment idea could be created, then that would be brilliant but history tells us that we are some what stuck on making good a better distribution of wealth and the individualistic self motivation isn’t working.

          • gunnerbear

            But that means (a) JTC sees his pay cut in two and then (b) you need to find a medic (who after years of demanding training and expensive time at Uni) is going to do the job for about the same as an experienced nurse might earn…..even assuming jtc decides not to jack it in (in which case you need to find two medics).

          • rekrab

            Do you think there aren’t any medics up and coming and JTC is a lone ranger medic?

          • gunnerbear

            No, I’m just basing it on how it might work – junior medic leaves college with qualifications and lots of debt. Decides to work abroad….for more cash. Just like thousands of nurses have done.

          • rekrab

            The more people in employment the more we can fund and reduce education and uni fees.

          • gunnerbear

            But how do sell the idea to the person about to lose 50% of their pay (because you’ve decided that their job can be done by two people by giving them 50% of the pay each) when the persons neighbour keeps their full pay because you’ve decided that job won’t be split. Incidentally, I seem to think the system you’re calling for was tried for a good few years in East Germany…..I seem to recall that it didn’t end well.

          • rekrab

            By cutting their working week by 50% given them the chance if they want to do other things.

            I don’t think it’s anyway near what the East German’s or former Soviet block did, it is far more socially orientated than that.

          • Dave Roberts

            Rekab. I can see you have never had a job.

          • rekrab

            LoL! you can? phew, I can see your not to clever with this stuff!

          • Dave Postles

            That’s amazing – most of us were under the clear impression that he works in public transport.

          • gunnerbear

            Incidentally £50K is about what a Chief Inspector earns or a Senior Nurse (as advertised). Are they rich? How do you intend to split their jobs?

          • rekrab

            Jeez! your misconstrued, what about those on £100,000k

          • gunnerbear

            You started on £50K now you’ve doubled it. Fair enough, I agree £100K is a very good salary. Almost as much as the PM earns!

          • rekrab

            No, I merely said that two jobs at £25,000 is better than one job at £50,000, you seem to be following Jaime’s lead in adding on arms and legs?

          • gunnerbear

            And then I asked “Fair enough then, what jobs” i.e who’s income are you going to cut in two.

    • Doesn’t all of that apply to AWS too ? We’ve already crossed that line no?

  • Leon Spence

    If you accept the premise of All Women Shortlists being equitable, and a great many in Labour do not, then All BME Shortlists is a logical step. I really don’t see how you can have one without the other.

  • mouthOfTheUmber

    As one of the 10% with dyslexia, I’d like to see 10% of seats have dyslexia only candidates

  • Jeremy Wright

    This is just a nonsense, and will help fan every bit of UKIP sentiment. It’s not a vote winner, and we don’t want quotas. Get community groups to talk about politics with young people and get them engaged and have policies that engage people so they want to participate, skin colour should have zero to do with it.

  • Dave Roberts

    Does anyone think it strange that this article as been deleted from the masthead after only 24 hours? Wen the Labour elite get a kicking they just say it hasn’t happened.

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