Exposing UKIP for what they are

27th September, 2014 11:00 am

I was born in Doncaster Royal Infirmary, less than a mile and a half from where UKIP are holding their party conference this weekend. I grew up in a nearby pit village in South Yorkshire, close to the Barnsley East constituency that I represent today in Parliament. The sight of all those UKIP politicians in Doncaster – Margaret Thatcher worshippers, ex-bankers, former big money Tory donors – trying to pass off as born-again champions of the working classes bordered on the ridiculous.

Farage Miliband

The chief phoney is Farage – the Barbour jacket-wearing, tally-ho shouting, ex-stockbroker, ex-Tory and now apparently the newly announced, self-appointed commissar for the comrades in the working class. But as well as Farage being a faux friend of the “workers”, a false prospectus runs right the way through UKIP’s policies. Labour has rightly begun to expose it this week.

Labour has used UKIP conference to take on their claim to stand up for working people and show the truth that UKIP are in fact more Tory than the Tories. This week on BBC’s Newsnight, former UKIP Treasurer, Stuart Wheeler, let the cat out the bag when he said: “Our policies, except for a few, are very, very similar to the Conservatives”.

David Cameron binned any pretence that we are “all in this together” when he gave millionaires a tax cut, but Farage wants to go further and give 16,000 millionaires another tax break of over £100,000.  As advocates of the flat tax, UKIP is a party which believes working families in areas like South Yorkshire should pay the same tax rate as the richest top one per cent.

David Cameron has wasted £3bn on an NHS reorganisation which has led to longer waiting times, 7,000 fewer frontline staff, and a GP access crisis. But Farage wants to go further.  UKIP’s health spokesperson has advocated charging people to see their GP. Nigel Farage has said there is still “plenty of room for cuts” when taking about NHS jobs. And this year their deputy leader, Paul Nuttall, said he wanted to “congratulate the coalition for bringing a whiff of privatisation into the beleaguered National Health Service”.

It doesn’t stop there. The Tories won’t repeat Labour’s tax on bank bonuses, but at the same time they do want to see rights in the workplace eroded. Like their old chums in the Tory party, UKIP is a party that wants to abolish workers’ rights, including parental leave, maternity pay and even redundancy pay, whilst defending ever higher bankers’ bonuses. Nigel Farage himself has said mothers are “worth far less” in the workplace, while defending as a “joke” his former MEP who referred to a group of women who didn’t clean behind fridges as “sluts'”.

Labour is right to expose this agenda head on. As Yvette Cooper has made clear, Nigel Farage’s euro extremism would also hurt working people here at home. Without the European Arrest Warrant we wouldn’t be able to catch and deport foreign criminals. Without co-operation with France we wouldn’t be able to take action in Calais to prevent illegal immigration. And without workers’ rights you couldn’t prevent overseas workers undercutting local workers.

But UKIP are not just a party of Tory policies and Tory politicians.  As Labour revealed this week, UKIP is also a party of Tory money. Nigel Farage may now distance himself from David Cameron, but he is being bankrolled by those who keep the Tories in business. Some 24 Tory donors have given UKIP over £2m, and in the last quarter almost 90% of UKIP’s funding came from Tory backers.

What’s more, amazingly, half the UKIP leadership – including the leader, deputy leader and head of policy – has their roots in the Tory Party, as do more than one in four of their candidates. Scratch UKIP’s surface and it is the true blue of Margaret Thatcher that is revealed behind the purple of the UKIP’s rosette.

Labour is determined to expose the truth about UKIP whether that is via the media, online with new social media images, as well as with hard-hitting campaign materials that will take the fight to the doorstep.

Growing up in South Yorkshire I remember seeing at first hand the awful damage that Thatcher and the Tory government did to the area in 1980s. Nigel Farage was a Conservative Party activist at the time. Perhaps next time he visits South Yorkshire I’ll offer to take him round the places where all the pits were closed by the Tories whilst he was cheering them on.

In recent years, Farage has become a professional politician, standing for election more times than anyone can remember. But he hasn’t left his past behind him. He said it himself earlier this year: “I am a Thatcherite”.

Like David Cameron, Nigel Farage is a politician obsessed with PR and photo opportunities. We saw that again this weekend at the UKIP conference in Doncaster.  But, like Cameron, behind the pose for the cameras likes another true Thatcherite.  And like with the Tories, as we’ll see next week, Labour is determined to take the fight to UKIP and expose them for what they are.

Michael Dugher is Member of Parliament for Barnsley East, Labour vice-chair and shadow minister for the Cabinet  Office

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  • Diggery Whiggery

    The desperation is palpable. None of the above accords with the policies announced this week.

    Labour did more than any party to privatize the NHS.

    As for Thatcher let’s not forget that she was brought to power by the aspirational working classes tired and let down by Labour.

    “Working class” and “NUM member” are not necessarily synonymous.

    P.S. The yah boo Maggie thing was already long passed its sell by date 24 years ago but you’re still going to use it well into this century aren’t you.

    Labour is tired. Labour is out of ideas. Labour is a busted flush.

    • Steve Stubbs

      You are right about the Thatcher business. We are still trying to fight the fights of three decades ago. Bit like the MOD who are always planning to fight the last war, and not the next.

      Most labour supporters under 35 probably wouldn’t recognise a photo of Thatcher, let alone be able to name any of her policies other than the Poll Tax, but if you ask them to explain precisely what that was you will probably not get a sensible answer, it’s just a slogan to them.

      Thatcher is history. So called Thatcherism is history. OK she took on and beat the holy grail of trade unionism, the miners. That’s history too, as is deep mining in the UK.

      Now can we move on to this century and fight the coming battles, not yesterday’s?

      • Paul Adams

        Strange that you say Thatcherism is history – I take it you’re a supporter of hers which is why no doubt you’re anxious to move on. Ironically it is us on the left who oppose Thatcherism who pay her the back-handed compliment that her philosophy is – alas – still very much alive.
        And it is quite right that we point out to voters who UKIP really are – and if they don’t like it up ’em so be it!

        • Steve Stubbs

          No I am not a supporter of her now (would be a bit pointless as she is dead) – and wasn’t when she was alive and in power. Like most politicians, she never realised the limits of her ability. I did agree with her over the Falklands war.

          However, I am a realist, I don’t see the point in trying to re-fight past battles, whether won or not. I just think that part of the reason for the slow decline of this party and others is that we continually try to live in the past. Our focus should be the future, while learning and remembering the lessons from the past.

        • Tokyo Nambu

          Thatcher left office 24 years ago. Since she left office, Labour have been in power more than the Tories. To have even dim memories of her misrule you have to be in your mid-thirties; to have voted in an election in which she was a possible outcome you have to be in your early forties. Since then there have been the 1992, 1997, 2001, 2005 and 2010 general elections. There have been four Prime Ministers.

          To run an election campaign on “boo, his, Thatcher” is simple saying that you’re not interested in the votes of anyone under 40. It’s electoral madness.

          • napoleon

            The vast majority of voters are 40-90, one in 15 voters in 2015 voted in 1955.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Now now. Thatcher was considerably to the left of the coalition, let alone UKIP.

          She, for example, pushed people onto the welfare rolls. The Coalition have clawed people off them, and what UKIP would do, well…

          • jackster

            Labour put people on the dole you clown, they destroyed the manufacturing base of this country long before “Facha” got near no.10.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Keep screaming abuse at me, and demanding your own facts.

            Your ignorance of employment rates (which is completely unrelated to what I said) is, well, your problem.

          • jackster

            Leon, I am not “screaming abuse” at you, I simply do not agree with you, I think you are wrong.
            It is perfectly acceptable for people not to agree, and I am able to accept that you are 100% wrong.

            I have never demanded my “own facts”

            You are a very angry person and I think that you are unable to think clearly or to evaluate a situation, due in a great part, to your horrendous leftist bias.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Right right, you’re not posting stuff like…

            “you Fascist”
            “you clown”
            “You vile Fascist”
            Etc. etc.

            Oh, wait you are – you are a liar.

            You are *demanding* I be 100% wrong, as you once more demand your own facts, and accuse me of being just like you – as you spew a – factually – far right, social darwinist and totalitarian line that simply because I do not agree with you and your far right views, I magically cannot “think clearly” or “evaluate a situation”.

            You simply refuse to accept that anyone outside your ideology can do those. You are what you supposedly decry, as you once more scream a torrent of abuse at the top of your lungs.

          • jaime taurosangastre candelas

            There was a commenter on LL about a year ago called “Newsbot9”, who was just like Leon. Completely incoherent and angry, and in Newsbot9’s case, also rather stupid. Very very very similar language and approach. Eventually, s/he went completely too far, calling people Nazi mass murderers.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No surprise you agree with your other account that I’m a Fascist, etc.

            You’re transparent as glass, jackster, as you keep up the same old labelling of others with your issues. You don’t read posts, you scream abuse (no doubt you’ll be calling me a Nazi, since I’m Jewish), etc.

            It’s you. It’s always been you. You just blame others, as always, Jackster. Always nice when people give away their other accounts.

          • jaime taurosangastre candelas

            I do not know you, nor you me. Please do not presume that I would call you a Nazi. I am not Jackster.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your usernames, thanks to a handy script I have, now list your accounts together, Jackster. You will never get away from that.

            You are yelling at me in this thread. I will go with your observed actions.

          • jaime taurosangastre candelas

            Goodness, you do seem certain of yourself. If your script is so clever, it will tell you that I am in Peterborough (actually, I am 7 miles away, but the nearest telephone location is Peterborough). Then try the same for this Jackster, who I do not know.

          • jackster

            I am in London!!

            This guy is a loon!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Let’s see.

            You said you are in London. Then you said you – that’s “this guy” is a loon. I am going to agree with you, for a change.

            If that’s not what you intended, then I would blame your sloppy usage of English, Jamiester.

          • jackster

            Again, no sense at all.
            Just one more huff Leon, promise yourself, it is only going to be one more huff….

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, you are making no sense, as you ramble on about a mythical drug. You, not me.

            The only drugs I’m doing are painkillers and amoxicillin. (****ing wisdom tooth!). They exist. What you’re rambling on about does not, it’s simply spam. If you do it again, I’ll just report your posts for that.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Where, precisely, did I claim I could detect people’s IP and location from it? Erm…no. Oh, and I laughed (which hurt, darn removed wisdom tooth!). I’d need to be a moderator here to do that, and it’d be an abuse of their power to do so for trivial reasons anyway.

            No, it’s a simple graphical effect which allows me to enter names to be shown together so I can more easily track people with multiple accounts. It’s handy, no more.

            You’re really on a flight of fancy tonight.

          • jackster

            He is extremely angry and hard to understand, Saturday night on the Jenkem……..explains it all.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Talking to yourself is a bad sign.

            That you still don’t check about the mythical drug you’ve been fooled about is just funny, really.

          • jackster

            Keep huffing the J!!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            It does not exist, you fool.

          • jackster

            You are on the J big time!!.

            What else could explain your irrational lashing out and uncontrolled hatred?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Oh, that’s easy – You are confusing the posts you make and the posts I make.

            Given you are apparently hooked on a non-existent drug, I think that’d be an easy mistake for you. (Yes, I am insulting you, and labelling this clearly. Yes, this is a further insult. It’s deserved.)

          • Michelle

            You write exactly like my ex sister in law who has recently been diagnosed with Narcissistic personality disorder. I’m sure its a coincidence but I found it interesting.

          • jackster

            Hello Leon

            “Your ignorance of employment rates (which is completely unrelated to what I said) is, well, your problem.”

            What does that even mean?

            Could you put that into English?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            It is in English. I am not responsible for your lack of knowledge of English. I would advise you to take more ESOL lessons, or to take a functional English course, as applicable.

          • jackster

            Read it again Leon.
            Read it again.

            Reading comprehension.

            “Leon Wolfeson
            Keep screaming abuse at me, and demanding your own facts.

            Your ignorance of employment rates (which is completely unrelated to what I said) is, well, your problem.”

            Leon,
            even Lord Englishford Englishbury the third, who lives at no. 1 England place in deepest Englandham, could not make head not tail of that fukin abomination.

            Stay away from the Jenkem, and the computer.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            “Be silent” you scream. “Stop posting”.

            You cannot, evidently, tolerate other ideologies. As you demand I waste my time because of your poor reading comprehension.

            That you think you’re a lord or whatever, that you can’t understand a simple English sentence, as you do mythical drugs or whatever…I don’t care. As I said, take an ESOL course or a functional English course.

            That you chose to come and troll here, that you are apparently desperate to silence me…you really are so very much what you accuse me of being.

          • jackster

            One huff is never enough!!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You know all about your mythical drug, it seems.

          • jackster

            Huff

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Why do you think I’d be interested in your usage of a non-existent drug? Are you just spamming?

          • Dave Roberts

            Brilliant jackster, keep it up. Leon brightens up my day but e needs winding up.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Winding up? No, you’re simply in agreement with him that spamming, trolling and screaming “Fascist” at anyone who disagrees with you is a good thing.

            It reflects on you, as a person, very poorly. Unsurprisingly.

          • gunnerbear

            Err…one interesting fact…..Wilson closed more pits than Thatcher. Perhaps another…..real terms spending on the NHS went up under Thatcher. Whether the NHS used the money well is quite another matter.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Thatcher raised NHS funding from pitifully to merely inadequate. If you look at the %GDP spent on healthcare, it was Labour in this case who raised it to “merely” significantly below the average for a first world nation.

            One of the few things they did right, afaik.

          • treborc1

            But we had to sell off parts of the NHS , under labour which is shocking but not unexpected.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            “But we had to sell off parts of the NHS”

            Which?

          • treborc1

            Yes he did but I’m sure you know the reasons behind this and how he did it. The coal miners all knew the smaller pits had to close and while most miners under Wilson found work within the mining industry, under Thatcher she wanted to destroy a Union and boy did she do it, but of course most Tories would never see that.

          • gunnerbear

            I don’t think that she personalised as such – rather that she was not prepared – after the landslide she got in the early ’80s – to tolerate any sort of dissent. I also think that if Labour had got in, the economics of the time would also have seen them do pretty much the same as the Blue Mob. Personally, I think much of it is about perceptions – I think that whereas the Red Mob were felt to have closed pits after much effort trying to save them, the perception is that some of the Blue Mob members of HMG relished what they were doing. Plus of course it didn’t help that the miners were led by an abrasive fool who managed to alienate the Pit Deputies and if the PDs had come out on strike the govt. would have been right in the mire given the statutory duties imposed by law on the PDs. I also think like Tebbitt has said, that the scale of the closures were too great and went too far plus that HMG had no plan to create conditions for decent jobs to be create jobs in those areas (and neither did the Red Mob from ’97 to ’10).And that leaves aside the bitter divisions created by the strike / no strike miners in towns up and down the UK.

        • gunnerbear

          Thattcher wouldn’t have any truck with UKIP. She was a believer in the Free Market (unlike huge chunks of UKIP that are quite keen on nationalisation). UKIP is a party that has two very, very different wings – Blue Mob and Red Mob which is with The Old Beerswiller has to dance on the head of a pin when it comes to policies. He’s terrified that if he shouts too loudly for ex-Blue Mob voters to join him he p**s the ex-Red Mobbers off and vice versa.

    • Guest

      “Democracy is tired. Democracy is out of ideas. Democracy is a busted flush.”

      Right.

      Your right-wing “aspirational” capitalists have always voted for the right, and your whitewashing of the NHS disorganisation your Coalition have done is obvious.

    • crackenthorp

      twerp

  • markmyword49

    UKIP members, or at least their leadership, might be everything you write. However, they’ve tapped a seam of discontent not only in “middle England” of the shires but also with the old blue collar voters in Labour strongholds.

    The reason. Look at Labour policy and what Labour run local authorities are doing. Labour doesn’t connect with this group. In many cases they’re skilled people who’ve lost reasonably well paid jobs and had to take insecure ones on much lower pay to live. They see their children and grandchildren finding it hard to get any job that isn’t insecure and low paid, who can’t get on the property ladder. They see their parents and elderly relatives suffering because the NHS and caring system are breaking down. They worry about what will happen to themselves when they need help. They see the top 1% continuing to take a still larger share of national wealth whilst their standard of living declines.

    And what do Labour promise? More of the same austerity. Always jam tomorrow.

    • Sylvia

      That’s because most people fell hard & fast for the Tory line about the financial crisis “being all Labour’s fault”. For those who know anything about financial affairs it was, in fact, global banks (including the UK ones) & especially US mortgage lenders who put the entire world finances at risk & it was Darling & Brown who started the solution process which Osborne has pretended to follow.
      The reason Labour local authorities are struggling, skilled people can’t keep their jobs, young people can’t find any jobs, the NHS can’t cope with the caring demands put on it, etc. is entirely a result of quite unnecesary cuts by Osborne. People are not discontented with Labour – they are discontented with the Bullingdon “solutions” imposed on them. If they do vote UKIP they will find themselves in an even worse situation financially.

      • mrCalvin

        The fact is that although the underlying financial cruises was not labours fault, our inability to react to it through years and years of destructive exorbitant spending absolutely was. We are talking about the same flaky governments that sold our gold reserves at the botom of the market, built a massive structural budget deficit and a huge pile of debt and trashed all of our pensions whilst they were at it.

        The sad thing is that the same economic team that wrought this chaos are at the helm begging the populace for another go at the trough. In the words of the prophet “you’ve got two chances of that mate ”

        Same old labour party. We will never forget and never forgive .

        • leslie48

          Fact – There are no known leading economists from the world’s top universities ( Harvard, Yale, NY, Oxford, Cambridge, Edinburgh, Warwick, LSE etc.,) or leading economic journalists like Gillian Tett or Martin Wolf or William Keegan which blame New Labour. It was USA in origin, property falls , crazy risk banks failing as property loans evaporated & defaulted and in the end Gordon and Obama rescued us all from a 1930s slump by bail outs, stimulus and very low interest rates.

          • gunnerbear

            What about the Pensions Raid then? What about massive de-regulation that turned the City into a Wild West Frontier town? C’mon, no blames Gordo for it all…..but hellfire he was the man at the helm that spent the cash like a sailor in a knocking shop.

          • treborc1

            Well brilliant a New labour Lover protecting the people who have all said Sorry.

            Gordon Brown has admitted
            he made a “big mistake” over the handling of financial regulation in
            the run-up to the banking crisis of 2008.

            The former prime minister told a US conference he had not realised the “entanglements” of global institutions.

            He said: “We set up the FSA [the City regulator] believing
            the problem would come from the failure of an individual institution. That was the big mistake.

            “We didn’t understand just how entangled things were.”

            Mr Brown said he had to “accept my responsibility” but added he was not the only one who had made mistakes.

          • leslie48

            Yes that applies to most politicians across most parties ( Left Centre and Right) in most states. Gordon was not running the basket cases – Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece or Cyprus as well as the USA. Moreover even France, Germany, Austria, Belgium and Holland had some banks which collapsed – it was a systematic, global and inter-related ‘ market failure’ of financial capitalism. (Agreed RBS was one of the biggest collapses in the world). On the other point the deficit under Labour pre-2007 was not particularly high however it became higher post 2008 as it did elsewhere as we rescued, stimulated and prevented thank God a massive slump. The Tories would have done the same like ourselves and America etc., Gordon brought in Keynesian methods to save the world as did Obama and Angela Merkel.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          So you always voted right, and would never “forgive and forget” in any case.

          You are lashing out at a government which had a lower debt than they inherited, one which managed to launch a recovery, which the coalition destroyed on an “emergency” basis.

          Your Coalition is indeed begging for a chance to keep this disaster, we’re falling down into, a massively destructive downwards spiral of productivity and wages which has the potential to make the depression we have never recovered from look mild.

        • jackster

          Adolf and Herman Goering, took their best shot, but they couldn’t have wrought the destruction on this country that the Labour party did in their wildest dreams.

          • Guest

            No surprise you think your Heros didn’t get to do enough damage, as you make up fantastical propaganda, showing your hate for this country and especially it’s democracy.

            You very much are what you accuse others of.

          • leslie48

            Obscene comment

        • Sylvia

          You’ve certainly fallen for the Tory spin. No point in trying to explain the causes of the crisis.

      • markmyword49

        Most voters I talk to do not equate the reduction of services at local level with central government funding being cut by 40% and Council Tax being frozen or rising at less than the rate of inflation. They see local councillors expenses and other payments rising, they see the number of posts in local government that pay in multiples of what they earn. They still believe there is fat to trim and the media and Coalition politicians reinforce the idea.
        Then what do they see – Labour saying they’ll be just as tough on average worker as the Coalition. Just read Ball’s speech to conference.
        Why shouldn’t they want to protest and who better now that the LibDems have shown their true colours than UKIP – another party promising all things to all voters?

        • Sylvia

          If this is what “most” people think, was ever thus. “Most” people don’t read the papers or listen to news programmes which tell the full story. And, as I said, the Tories have an incredibly pwerful PR machine (called Cameron) plus nearly all the right wing media.
          Let them vote UKIP then. There aren’t enough candidates to outvote Labour & so Labour will be elected -Hooray.

      • gunnerbear

        Manufacturing declined more under the Red Mob than the Blue Mob. That is a shocking thing say to about Labour but Labour has long since abandoned the idea of representing the ‘workers’.

        • Sylvia

          But I think they have now woken up to the economy being unbalanced. I would trust them to rebuild manufacturing much more than I would trust the Tories.

      • gunnerbear

        Quite unnecessary cuts? NHS spending has been ring-fenced which is why other departments are facing chunky reductions in the rate of increase in spending.

        • Sylvia

          Where did you get the idea that spending on the NHS was ring-fenced by the Tories?????

          • gunnerbear

            Err….this article….”Ring-fencing the NHS and schools is no longer viable” By Tony Dophin | Published: May 28, 2013 | Left Foot Forward. Or perhaps the article on the BBC Website “Should the NHS Budget be Ring Fenced” – which contained the following, “That applies to all government departments except for the NHS, schools and foreign aid – they will be ring-fenced.

            However, some argue that allowing those department to bear some of the brunt of the cuts would lessen the cuts elsewhere.

            Nick Robinson, the BBC’s political editor, outlined both sides of the debate.

            Speaking to the Today programme’s Sarah Montague, former Labour health minister Lord Warner gave his view that it is time to end the special treatment of the NHS.”

    • Leon Wolfeson

      “but also with the old blue collar voters in Labour strongholds.”

      There is no evidence in polling tabs of this. You are scaremongering, trying to drive Labour even further right, which really *is* costing them votes. They’ve long lost moderate left wingers like me, and now are looking at losing the centre.

      Labour’s problem is they are not breaking with the coalition, not that they are not promising far, far harder austerity as UKIP is.

      • jackster

        Leon, the answer is LESS government, not more.
        You really need to understand this.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Yes, of course you need to yell that it’s evil we have the NHS, that we have free schooling, that the poor don’t have to live on the streets.

          It’s really just what I expect of a fanatic like you. You’ll keep a strong police force to protect you from the unwashed poor, of course, and so on. And the paternalist morals, your choices for the people will just become far stronger in your one-party state.

          Fortunately, only a minority of people agree with you, so you become more radical, throw more insults, scream more hate.

          I want a smaller state, but in a left wing, pro free-market way which entirely contrasts with your big-state capitalist rent-seeking way. Cutting out the unnecessary moralism, the vast amounts wasted on paternalism, the overheads involved in making people Think Right… (i.e. a Basic Income would smash administration costs in SO many areas of government it might well be income-positive on that alone!)

          • jackster

            Leon, you Fascist, I want a small government and a country where people are responsible for their-selves and their own destiny.
            Not the overbearing Totalitarian state that micromanages everyone’s lives, that you so yearn for.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You haven’t read my posts, of course. You are very much what you despise – the reality of your corporate, big-money driven state would be to create far more poverty.

            You have no idea what I want, because you are being a PC bigot and not even bothering to read my posts. But let’s see, for the peanut gallery… would downsize the state by for example getting it out of marriage. The state should only be involved in registering civil partnerships, and the sex of the individuals is quite irrelevant to them.

            But hey, you’re here to troll and to call the Jew a Fascist, and that’s what you’ll do regardless of the facts.

          • jackster

            Leon, you are incapable of making yourself clear on any issue, or arguing any point.
            Who are you?
            What do you believe?
            What do you want?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you make arrant demands, which you say I can’t tell you. You are apparently silly.

            (For the peanut gallery, I am a middle-aged British male. I am a moderate mutualist. I want this country to have a proper recovery from the Coalition’s depression – that means rising wages, for instance, and a decent amount of house building. I would also like the gap where my wisdom tooth was removed on Friday to stop hurting so I can go to sleep)

      • markmyword49

        If you’d seen the results in local elections in my area you’d see the results. Wards with a mixed population ignored UKIP whilst those with very few voters of ethnic origin piled on the votes for UKIP.
        Labour activists have been guilty of ignoring wards which automatically return a Labour councillor and missed a groundswell starting to build. The electorate wants to get rid of what they see as unrepresentative councillors who take their vote for granted and then provide nothing in return.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          You are trying to use anecdote to disprove data.

          And you’re railing there at how FPTP works, I note, rather than Labour per-se.

    • jackster

      You bought it, so why complain?
      Labour never fails to fail.

      • markmyword49

        I detest what UKIP stand for with my whole being. I favour the EU and believe immigration has only done good for the UK.
        What I’m pointing out is that Labour isn’t listening to peoples concerns and finding policies and arguments to counter the simplistic ravings of Farage and his spokespeople.

  • Graeme Hancocks

    Ukip appeal to the disaffected and discontented but their promises – like Farage and co – are phoney and fake. This is a right wing party who care little for the ordinary working person despite all the great sounding rhetoric. They pretend to be different to other politicians when in fact they are just the same, often worst, than the current bunch. A bad bunch.

    • Doug Smith

      No one is expecting UKIP to form a government. But as a protest option UKIP finds its purpose.

      The Labour Party no longer listens to ordinary people – hence the isolation of the PLP elite, demonstrated by the leadership’s rejection of taking the Royal Mail and railways into public ownership.

      So what must ordinary people do? Protest at the ballot box and vote for the anti-Establishment non-Tory/Progress alternative.

      • Paul Adams

        Let me get this straight, people shouldn’t vote for the Labour Party because it is a pale imitation of the Tories so the solution is to vote for UKIP who are the Tories on steroids?
        If you really can’t bring yourself to vote Labour and want to vote for a protest party at least vote for the Greens!

        • Doug Smith

          I’m not admitting to my own sins but explaining what is occurring beyond the Westminster bubble.

          And I’m not arguing for a UKIP vote. But certainly, I won’t vote Labour because I have never voted Tory in my life and don’t intend to start now.

          I’ve seen a number of reports that suggest the Green vote is rising. This, along with the increasing popularity of UKIP, should be understood as further evidence of disenfranchisement with the talk-radical-act-Tory careerists of the LP and LibDems.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Honestly, the Greens are no better than Labour, and are radically anti-science in several critical areas of policy.

          Unless Labour get their act together, I’ll be voting for a local party, if there’s a decent one, or otherwise I’ll be writing in for Arnold Judas Rimmer. (After all, why vote for the greater toff?)

        • BillFrancisOConnor

          Yup. That’s about right Paul. How bonkers is that for a voting strategy?

      • Leon Wolfeson

        People are voting for local parties as a protest.

        The UKIP are a clear right wing option, which is attracting, per the polling tabs, nearly entirely right wing Tories and the far right.

        • jackster

          No, UKIP are attracting people who don’t agree with you.

          You cant cope with other people having their own opinions, they look at what is on offer and they make their own decisions.

          You like this, you really like this a lot, but only when they make the decisions that you want the them to make.

          You vile Fascist.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You are entirely entitled to be a nasty extremist. You also, of course, have (rightly) zero protection in law for holding those entirely political views.

            You don’t get to make up your own facts. The facts I am looking at – which come from polling tabs on sites like UK Polling Report *are* facts, you’re lashing out because people are simply not supporting your political views in sufficient numbers – hence you are lashing out not at me, but at British democracy.

            (It is also, of course, a completely uncontroversial fact that the UKIP are to the right of the Tories, but you can’t even accept that!)

            I’m sure you’ll spill more hate rants about how I’m magically a Labourite and a Socialist and for all I know a pink elephant…and you’ll simply be wrong, and ranting.

            Oh, and since you’re ignorant of even this, Fascism is a philosophy of the right. It’s stateist, radical, authoritarian and closed-minded nationalist (none of which I am), which perfectly describes, well, your position.

          • jackster

            Hello Leon

            “You are entirely entitled to be a nasty extremist. You also, of course, have (rightly) zero protection in law for holding those entirely political views.”

            I am quite dismayed to learn that I have “zero protection in law” for being a Classical Liberal, you could even say deeply disappointed.

            But really, I should have known what was coming to me for “holding those entirely political views.”.

            My God, I thought Labour were bad, at least we can all be thankful that you are not running the country.
            Uncle Joe.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Classical Liberal? Oh, I needed that laugh.

            How dare I call your political views, er, political views. I am also sorry to hear that you have multiple personalities, and you all thank…oh, you’re American. Well, I see.

            I’d describe your ideology as Vulgar Libertarian myself.

          • gunnerbear

            Fascism like Communism isn’t left or right. It is Totalitarian.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Oh please. It’s to the far right, Communism is to the far left. What they share is they’re *extremist*, more than anything.

  • carlton temple-powell

    Very important to keep referring to UKIP as Thatcherite-UKIP because that is exactly what UKIP is and is the best way to define UKIP in the public mind. UKIP hate the EU because the EU goes some way in regulating the City, the issue of migrant labour is really a sideshow, for UKIP what matters is looking after the Financial community, at the expense of everyone else. Labour strategists must work hard to make the Thatcherite-UKIP tag stick! Maggie’s militant tendency is what UKIP are.

    • wornish

      “Immigration is a side show” just about sums up Labour. Talk about out of touch.

      • Guest

        Yes, you are. You insist on blaming the Other for everything, and even if you got into power and got your purges, when things became worse you’d need the next victims, and the next…all to excuse the failures of isolationism.

    • David Lewis

      But Margaret Thatcher is generally revered in Britain apart from by the loonies of course so amplifying UKIP’s Thatcherite philosophy helps them greatly.

      • Sarkastracus

        “But Margaret Thatcher is generally revered in Britain”. Very funny. Yes, Thatcher was so revered she was ousted out of power by her own party in 1990.

        • David Lewis

          By far the majority of folks in this country regard her as the best PM since the war but nobody lasts for ever.

          The loonies loathe her because she beat them hollow and she was a woman.

          • leslie48

            The Tory Troll who cannot keep away from Labour List. It’s pointless contributing here.

          • jackster

            Leslie, David simply does not agree with your point of view, he is not a troll, he is simply trying to educate you.

          • Guest

            David, you’re obvious. Screaming “YOU LOONIES ARE BEATEN UP” or whatever you’re doing is obvious trolling.

          • jackster

            Man alive!! You are completely out of control.
            Keep huffing the Jenkem, you mad tosser!

          • Guest

            I hate to tell you this, but Jenkem is entirely fictional. Your local dealer has been making free cash at your expense.

            You keep saying having another opinion than yours means I am “out of control”, as you show your totalitarian tendencies to the crowd.

          • leslie48

            David Lewis does not educate – he is a right wing polemicist and has little knowledge of Labour, past , present or future. He wastes time here and seriously wastes other people’s time. He is a troll without doubt. The content is obviously Right Wing. On many sites he would be deleted as say on Richard Murphy’s Tax reform site.

          • David Lewis

            Losers are always losers because they are always wrong.

          • Guest

            Ah, the “IR RIGHT” theory of argument.

          • BillFrancisOConnor

            The worst thing is that Mark wants us to donate to the site.
            Without proper moderation that would be a bonkers thing to do.

            PS They’re just trying to wind you up Leslie. Take no notice.

          • Guest

            Ah, now you’re inventing polls.

            And I see, you think she beat people up and that her sex is relevant. Sigh.

          • jackster

            Keep huffing the Jenkem!!

          • Guest

            Not everyone does mythical drugs like you do.

            I don’t, for instance.

          • jackster

            Yes you do!!

            You Jenkster.

        • Tokyo Nambu

          All political careers end in failure.

          Blair was ousted by his own party. The difference is that the Tories were competent at the coup, at put back in someone who won a general election. Brown, on the other hand…

          • gunnerbear

            Yep…the Blues have always been far more ruthless when it comes to chopping leaders.

      • Guest

        Ah yes, everyone outside your ideals is a “loony”. Keep up the totalitarian revisionism!

    • Diggery Whiggery

      Thatcher was brought to and kept in power by the aspirational working classes. When the Tories abandoned Thatcher, those working classes abandoned the Tories. They flirted with Blair for bit before deserting him too. For the last 10 years they’ve been sitting on the sidelines watching in horror at what the Tories and Labour have been doing to the country waiting for a voice to speak for them.

      They’ve now found one and are not bothered that UKIP is Thatcherite. To them, that’s not a bad thing.

      • carlton temple-powell

        “are not bothered that UKIP is Thatcherite” This is true and I expect all those loyal to Thatcher’s ideals will vote UKIP because UKIP represents Thatcherism far better than the Conservative party but remember that most people in the UK were never supporters of Thatcherism and now Labour’s job is to stop voters from being duped by the dishonesty of Farage in claiming that UKIP represents the interests of ordinary voters. Perhaps election posters with Thatcher’s face merged into that of Farage with Thatcherite and UKIP policies standing side by side for comparison? Its time to shine a light on Thatcherite UKIP.

        • MoreLeftThanYou

          You are right when you say that ‘most people in the UK were never supporters of Thatcherism’ but I recall reading years ago that around 45% of working class voters voted for her three times. The privatisations and share issues were immensely popular as was selling off the council houses and that great money spinner for the middle classes -converting the building societies into banks. Then there was the Falklands…

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Factually incorrect, of course – the UKIP is far to the right of Thatcherism. Heck, the current coalition is to the right of Thatcher!

      • Guest

        “Thatcher was brought to and kept in power by the aspirational working classes.”

        Analysis of voting trends says…you’re lying, as usual. Your far right have always voted far right, many have gone straight from BNP or NF to UKIP. Moreover, UKIP is far to the right of Thatcher.

        • Diggery Whiggery

          Link to your analysis?

          BNP is a National Socialist party (read their economic ‘policy’). National Socialism may be many things but far right it ain’t, which may explain why there are former BNP councillors who are now Labour councillors. Happy to help.

        • Diggery Whiggery

          As you’ve copied and pasted so will I

          Link to your analysis?

          BNP is a National Socialist party (read their economic ‘policy’). National Socialism may be many things but far right it ain’t, which may explain why there are former BNP councillors who are now Labour councillors. Happy to help.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, that’s just pointless repeated posting on your part. I was, of course, ensuring you would not make that part of your post vanish.

            You are correct the BNP are National Socialist. National Socialism is nothing to do with Socialism, despite the superficial resemblance in naming. It is an ideology of the right, indeed the far right, and you are simply in denial and trying to whitewash the BNP’s ideology.

            The BNP had a nasty tactic of trying to appear legitimate and fooled a number of people into standing as BNP candidates. They quite rapidly left when they realised what the BNP really were, a good number after being elected.

            No need to take my word for it, they said it at the time. Maureen Stowe, for instance, who was never a BNP member despite being elected on their ticket.

            Frankly, it’s not that surprising. The BNP facade was always threadbare and didn’t last, and in finally cracking it took the BNP down with it – not so long ago!

            You simply haven’t looked deeply enough into the issues, try doing that rather than “helping”.

    • jackster

      The “bedroom tax” does not exist.

      Ring up HMRC and ask how the “bedroom tax” is collected, try it why don’t you?
      Or perhaps you are only interested in being a lying socialist bullshitter.

      • Guest

        Keep spewing that bigoted hate, as you demand evictions and higher costs to the taxpayer, and wasting HRMC’s time. No surprise you’re all for *that*, why, otherwise they might find time to audit you!

        • jackster

          Stop huffing the J.

          • Guest

            You really are short of insults, as you invoke the drug which does not exist, but which you’ve been thoroughly fooled by the tabloid press on.

  • 000a000

    No mention of immigration or the EU. This is why UKIP will continue to be sucuessful in converting Labour voters. Writing that Farage is a banker or that they will charge you to see a GP only impresses the Labour Party faithful and entirely misses their appeal.

    • Guest

      They’re not being successful, by the polling tabs, but keep lying away, trying to make Labour shift even further right.

      And I see, you think facts only impress the “labour faithful”, and they don’t appeal to the people who would of always voted UKIP anyway on the back of “herp derp SMASH THE BORDERS SHUT”.

    • gunnerbear

      And the talk of charging to see a GP – well the RCN were openly talking about that recently at their conference! I’m not sure that the RCN could ever be called a hotbed of radical right wing thinking. Plus of course some GPs have said the same in terms of ‘sorting demand’ into those that need to turn up and those that maybe will turn up.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        They’re being forced into considering it, right.

        The evidence, of course, is that it stops people from accessing services until they’re much sicker, leads to massive amounts of people not registered with a GP and would increase demand on A&E…it’s not cost-positive in anything but the shortest time periods.

  • MoreLeftThanYou

    Labour now hates Barbour and stockbrokers?

    Please stop playing the old Thatcher Miners’ strike tune. Try to talk HONESTLY about the Blair government and PFI’s and contracting out on the NHS. You come across like an old-fashioned would be left-wing hack.

    Get the Mansion Tax take up to five billion and I will give you five minutes to rail on about Thatcher and how great its was down the mines.

  • Sylvia

    Excellent article from Michael Dugher. Pity very few people will read what he has to say.

  • Guest

    Even if UKIP are some neo-Thatcherite tribute party (though I think you’ll find they have modified their position on certain things. They’ve already pledged to axe the Bedroom Tax, reduce taxes on middle income families and want to take those on min wage out of paying tax) that doesn’t wash with Labour’s once solid faithful vote. The look, background, sound, approach and contrived pro-politician demeanour of the Labour frontbench (along with a good number of backbenchers) have more than damaged the party’s standing with working class voters. Those blue collar workers in the south became Thatcherites in the 80s and are now wooed by UKIP. Now those in the north are turning to UKIP.

    • leslie48

      Rubbish, Blairs govts had the biggest majorities ever and easily won the working class on Labour policies and many others too. Labour has to do as Michael says here ‘expose’ what the UKIP policies will do to people’s incomes, jobs and services. Fear is all.

      • Guest

        LOL looks like someone’s singing from the Labour handbook…sounds like you’re just in denial about UKIP’s potential in Labour heartlands.

        • leslie48

          No just questioning your conclusions on Labour support and working people. Lab are on 37% and UKIP on 15%. They may gain some leverage in Essex & parts of Kent but not necessarily the rest of the UK which includes England, Wales and Scotland.

          • leslie48

            Labour’s expected majority circa 44 seats.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      They want to take the poor out of contributions as well, if you didn’t notice, so no pensions or JSA. Or didn’t you notice that one?

      And no, they are not turning to the UKIP from Labour. There is no evidence in the polling tabs for that. They are turning to “not voting” or local parties.

      • David Lewis

        I know about Wales and Scotland where the trend is away from Labour.

        Scotland is benefiting SNP and Wales is benefiting UKIP.

        NI is another income tax these days and has been for nearly twenty years. Contributions, however are used to calculate pension entitlement but there are other simple means to do this.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Yes, it’s very “simple” (if nasty) – stop paying them to people the plan has “taken out of tax”. I’ve heard that repeatedly from UKIPers, as they are so pleased they’ve found a solution for “freeloaders”, who will no longer get pensions and JSA.

          And you are trying to conflate together different issues..read the polling tabs!

    • jackster

      The “Bedroom tax” does not exist.

      • Guest

        And you don’t exist. You say there’s evidence of you? Well done, there’s plenty of evidence of the Bedroom tax. The Coalition, for instance, know about it because they passed it.

        • David Lewis

          It is a stupid policy allright but it certainly is not a tax.

          • Guest

            Well that does explain why you love it so much.

            It’s not technically a tax, but it’s like fighting any other popular catchphrase, the only reason to do so is to cloud the debate. The Tories didn’t manage to put their spin on the name…move on, really.

  • Jonathan morse

    The Blair/Brown government was conditioned by the press, any policy that did not comply with Thatcherism would cost them the support of the press that they needed to get elected. The flaws in the Thatcher/Reagan model were exploited in what caused the financial crash, and Brown and Co were unable to present a counter narrative nor deal with the problem.

    Just as Brown could not, or would not, argue a good case for Labour, neither will the current Labour leadership. Some politicians argue their case, this lot, like Brown, assume the elections already won and/or is won providing they don’t give their enemies something they can use against them. I can’t work out which it is, whether Ed M is just the prize idiot we sadly elected, or the unions foistered on us, or whether he is clever enough to not say anything. I fear for the country if Labour are elected and Miliband is who I think he is.

    Either way we will ignore UKIP as we ignore everyone because either our leadership are too dumb to argue with them or they are affraid of giving the game away.

    I still think the next election will be run by the Tories the same way they ran the last elections for the London Mayor and with the same result.

  • Jonathan morse

    Am I right in thinking UKIP both promise that those on the min wage won’t pay tax and that they will have a flat rate tax? Isn’t that a contradiction in terms?

    • Leon Wolfeson

      No, you can have a minimum below which no tax is payable, as in some of the EU flat tax states. The rate he wants to set it at is entirely unrealistic, of course, but as he’d merge NI into tax, it would mean (if he did do it) that the poor would not build credits for state pensions and JSA…funny he never talks about THAT!

      And of course, those same EU flat tax states show that a flat tax is both highly regressive, and not at all a low-tax option.

      • gunnerbear

        NI is a tax. It’s just HMGs of all colours that like to pretend it isn’t. Bit like the Licence Fee – or the Telly Tax if you prefer.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          …NI is important for pension and JSA. Nothing *at all* like the licence fee.

    • jackster

      No.
      A flat rate tax can be introduced on earnings above a certain level, it could be set at for example at, £10,000 or £12,000.
      Anyone earning under the set ammount would pay no income tax at all.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        So you pointlessly repeat what I said. What a surprise.

        (And you miss out relevant data)

  • I don’t get it although I am not from the UK, I am trying to understand. This group opposes the muslim takeover. They oppose the raping of thousands of british women and they are the bad guy?

  • TRAV1S

    After what the Labour Party did to the children of Rotherham, I think you should keep your mouth shut. Labour the paedophile protection party.

  • MonkeyBot5000

    Labour has used UKIP conference to take on their claim to stand up for working people and show the truth…

    Thanks for that. As a working person, I’m not very bright and I need you to tell me what to think.

    The last thing I need is for you to try to offer me a better option and let me make my own assessment of who to believe.

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