What is our answer to the English question?

January 11, 2012 11:44 am

The stunning success of the Military Wives choir is a wonderful and quintessentially English story. Their story is one of resolve, of finding meaning in our locality and the people with whom we rub shoulders day to day, of combating our fears, and of brilliant amateur hobbyism. What is more English than that? And in Gareth Malone, the inspirational figure who made it all happen, we even see the English eccentric alive and well. ‘Wherever you are’ made Christmas number one and I doubt a single person who watched The Choir kept their eyes dry.

This was the second series of the The Choir. The first took place on a council estate in South Oxhey, Hertfordshire. When the BNP tried to give the choir a cheque for £1000 it was rejected with one committee member saying:

“We’ve worked really hard as a group to be inclusive of everybody and promote an ethnically diverse choir. We don’t feel the BNP shares those values so, as group, we decided to turn the money down.”

One of the tragedies of recent years has been the way in which vile extremists including the BNP, the EDL, and the English Democrats have been able to latch onto anger and alienation and expressed them through a corrupted notion of Englishness. Nothing is more un-English than hate and extremism. The response from mainstream politics has been pathetic- a St George’s flag waved here, a bulldog image there, faux attempts to make St George’s day a real national celebration, mixed with the odd over-enthusiastic expression of support for a national football side filled full of under-achieving prima donnas.

There is something of real England in The Choir. It speaks to an England of communities, civic energy, artistic expression, and giving it a go. Whether it’s the National Trust, a renewed understanding of the military life and contribution, the celebration of the monarchy, or the rising tide of enthusiasm for the Olympics, or even the success of Downton Abbey or the revival of Dickens, in these times of anxiety and austerity we are reaching for an expression of what we have in common and what we share.

We are in a strange position: we have two nationalities. We experience our civic life as Englishmen and women. Yet our institutions and national identity are also British. This creates a confusion and a tension. Even the precise George Orwell blurs over the difference in his writings. This used to enrage the Scots. Now they have their own Parliament it is the English who suffer the bewilderment and frustration.

The simple fact is that most people don’t really see a big difference between being British and being English. The overlap is enormous. To defend the union, it is Britishness which has received the attention. That is the identity that has been crafted as deliberately multicultural and embracing. Englishness, meanwhile, has been left to those who want to exclude and paint in monochrome. This is a disaster and completely irresponsible.

A decision on Scottish independence is now on the near horizon; just two and a half years away. Alongside the positive new expressions of Englishness that we are seeing – embodied by Gareth Malone’s work – an English political question is about to confront us. We are about to rush headlong into defending the union and the status quo.

While independence isn’t the most likely outcome of this process, a significant further devolution of powers – including of fiscal policy – is the favoured outcome of Scots. If Westminster attempts to block this off as an option then they are playing with independence fire. If Labour has any sense, it will not only support a ‘devo max’ question being included in the referendum but would also seriously consider backing it. It’s the option that appeals to most Scots.

What can not get lost in all this is England’s political future. The constitutional and national future of Scotland is for them. England’s civic communities should have the same power of self-determination. A poll published earlier this week for the new charity, British Future, run by former Fabian Society General Secretary, Sunder Katwala, found that 51% of people want an English Parliament. If Scotland goes for further devolution or home rule, this is likely to increase. What’s more, if it does so then the Westminster parliament will be a de facto English Parliament. It is only a matter of time before it will be a case of English MPs for English laws.

This is a political disaster. To simply evolve an English parliamentary model from the British parliamentary model completely ignores the reality of English pluralism. Majoritarian politics has been increasingly inadequate to the task of expressing British democratic opinion. The same goes for England. That is why we need a national dialogue about what form any English parliament will take. We can’t simply allow Conservative majorities centred around the south and south-east to dominate our national life to an even greater extent despite a wider pluralism. A new English political pluralism – with a voting system and institutions to match – is the only sensible and democratic option.

Self-determination matters beyond the national level too. A symmetric British federalism is neat but completely unrealistic. Instead, we need a bottom-up democratic restructuring. If the north-east or Kernow want new powers then they should have them. The north-east and Cumbria, in particular, could lose out from greater Scottish self-rule. If they demand the political tools to respond, they should be given them.

The mistake in the past has been to try to impose a regional system of government on England that is poorly suited to emotional attachments that people have. In some places, regional government may be suitable. In others it will be city or city-region. For some it will be a county or local level. Clusters of political authority may also come together in, as yet, unimagined ways. Once again, the core principle is self-determination. That is itself could provoke an English democratic revival.

England is a nation of contradiction. We are little Englanders and global citizens; north and south; radical and conservative; rural and urban; scientific and humanistic; and modern and traditional. We are a people of complex and overlapping identities. England is starting to celebrate itself and regain a sense of cultural self-awareness. The intersection of community, civic life, national institution, and culture epitomized by the The Choir reminds us of some of what we have lost and need to regain.

England’s relationship with the other nations on these islands and the wider world is changing. The notion that an eighteenth century constitution can cope with this enormous and potential traumatic change doesn’t stack up. We have a choice – as a nation, as communities, and political participants –to wait for the trauma to hit us or to positively reach for an open and embracing Englishness to meet our emotional, material and political needs. Let’s embrace this latter course and not risk our national destiny being seized by the forces of antagonism and division.

Anthony Painter’s essay for Soundings Magazine Time for an optimistic Englishness can be read (with a very short registration) here.

  • http://toque.co.uk/ Toque

    I agree that England shouldn’t just be the bit that’s left over when the union breaks up. But I’ve been calling for Labour to do something for years and they’re deaf to ideas about building an ‘optimistic Englishness’ – all they’re interested in is Britishness, which seems like an increasingly dated concept.
    I started a campaign called A National Conversation for England on Labour Space, and for some time it was the leading campaign. But Ed Miliband didn’t engage with it in the way that he did with other campaigns and eventually I had to email him in order to receive this dismissive and uninterested reply.
    After many years of trying to engage, I’m afraid that I’ve reached the conclusion that Labour are irredeemably anti-English.

    • Plato

      Have you seen Witanagemot’s e-petition re the Barnett formula debt allocation should the UK break up?  Rather a good idea I thought.

  • http://twitter.com/gonzozzz dave stone

    Excellent post, Anthony. Thanks.

    The proposals you outline point to the possibility of developing institutions that can reflect and nurture the our shared complexity – an essential task.

    And the suggestion of supporting the inclusion of the devo-max option in the Scottish referendum offers a principled way for the revival and renewal of Labour in Scotland.

    Good stuff all round.

  • Franwhi

    Anthony re the quintessentially “English” military wives choir – the soloist Sam Stevenson is in fact a Scot from Perthshire !

    • http://twitter.com/anthonypainter Anthony Painter

      Indeed – a testament to open and inclusive nature of Englishness!

      But seriously, my point is about English civic endeavour rather than the
      nationality of the participants. Englishness is a culture, sensibility,
      and practice rather than simply a nationality.

      • Diogenes of Sinope

        Hello Anthony,
        Please can you define English culture, sensibility and practice?
        I don’t understand why you would consider an English Parliament to be a disaster, please can you elaborate?
        Can you also please explain which other national parliaments (just stick to Europe) you consider to be disasters?

        • Anthony Painter

          No I can’t define it: it’s too subjective, varied and diffuse.
          I didn’t say EP would be a disaster.

      • Redshift

        I’m really not sure how it is ‘a culture’ or sensibility, that is both distinguishable from the Welsh and Scots and recognises the existence north-south divide. 

  • Anonymous

    Ahh the English Question.

    No mention of the  - deliberate  - anomaly introduced when Scottish MPs can vote on English matters – and do so  but English MPs may not vote of Scottish matters.

     We can’t simply allow Conservative majorities centred around the south and south-east to dominate our national life to an even greater extent despite a wider pluralism. 

    But you had no compunction in letting Socts Labour MPs support a Labour Government? And vote on English matters..

    I am afraid this article is so blatantly missing a key point that it can only be regarded as hypocrisy…

    • Anonymous

      Do you not know the reason for this, shocking…..

  • Hamish

    There is a real opportunity for Labour here.
    Don’t just support Devo-max.  Support full independence for Scotland.
    English independence will follow without strife.

    The new government in Scotland will be labour-minded, whatever it is called in name.
    It will be bold and radical.  Some policies will fail, but some will succeed. 
    Labour in England could learn from that and gain credibility as a result, but not if Labour fight tooth-and-nail to preserve the status quo

    • Anonymous

      How would labour prosper under an English Parliament, difficult without a Scottish labour party

  • GuyM

    A few questions:

    1 You surely are not implying the English Democrats are “vile extemists” are you?

    2 You are implying that in an English Parliament the likelihood of a majority of English voters suporting the Tories means that some form of protection needs to be put in place that prevents that vote having effect?

    3 Have you ever been at Wembley or Twickenham? I can assure you a sense of English nationality is alive and well outside of extremist circles. In fact the biggest cheer I’ve ever heard at Twickenham (besides a last minute win against Australia) was for news that Scotland had lost.

    If what you are arguing is that rather than a pan English political structure there is more regional management then I’ll agree with that, but the payment for that (much as many Scots argue for devo-max) is more fiscal autonomy i.e. less London and SE taxes going to be spent in the north.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Homfray/510980099 Mike Homfray

      Yes, the ED’s certainly are vile extremists – a more polite version of the BNP

      Interesting that club supporters of football tend not to bother much with the international game – that’s certainly how it is in Liverpool where we are blue or red, in footballing terms, and this loyalty far outweighs links to the national side

      I see no reason why more regional autonomy should not incorporate redistribution. After all, the private sector have no social responsibility and so have established their business in a place which suits them, so others will have to ensure fairness.

      • Anonymous

        Surely you are confused between the English Democrats and the English Defence League?

      • Diogenes of Sinope

        Evidently democracy is an extreme and vile concept to you Mike!

        • Redshift

          Or the fact that the EDs are full of ex-BNP members and many current and former EDL members….

          • GuyM

            Evidence for this please?

          • Redshift

            In Leeds it goes to the extent of the EDs sharing postal addresses for donations and membership with the BNP’s Yorkshire & Humber MEP Andrew Brons…

          • GuyM

            OK then that if true is unacceptable and places the ED in a far different light.

          • Diogenes of Sinope

            Just in case you missed this post when I posted it above:

            Well, that’s one example, but I am not sure one person makes a large
            proportion. I am not sure what you mean by ‘many’, is that below 10,
            above 10…more?
            From what I know the EDs and BNP have different
            agenda. It is curious that some BNP members have moved into the EDs. I
            suppose that the political ideas of individuals can change over time.

            BTW, have you heard about Trevor Maxfield?, he is a Labour councillor in  Darwen Lancashire, he used to be in the BNP.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Homfray/510980099 Mike Homfray

            He represents the For Darwen party, I believe.

            The English Democrats are just another right wing BNP-lite party, sharing their right wing agenda

          • Diogenes of Sinope

            Mike,
            My I suggest you buy a good quality book about Political Ideology and read it. You will then hopefully learn something and stop sounding like a complete eejit!

            The BNP are National Socialists and if you read Political Ideology you would know the foundations and origins of National Socialism are in the left (with some right wing policies such as restoring the death penalty). National Socialism is a mixture and if you write down all the policies they will be somewhere in the middle of the political spectrum.
            Other examples of left wing ideologies are Marxism and Fascism. They all have large controlling governments. They are undemocratic and have dictator.
            Labour is far more undemocratic than the EDs and they have much more in common with Fascism than the EDs do.
            New Labour’s 3rd Way was a fascist Policy.

            Anyway these are some of the reasons I will not vote for Labour (again), I used to!

            Under Labour Britain became client state to the corrupt EU
            Labour Introduced poltical correctness and balkanized society.
            Labour’devolved’ Britain without giving England a Parliament.
            Labour Waged war on the family, were blatantly open to bribes for policy and considered democracy – over anything that threatened their control over the wreck they created.
            Labour poured money into councils and the NHS and yet made no effort to reform them.
            Labour politicised the civil service and made it utterly useless as well as incompetent.
            Labour hiked tax endlessly and wasted it, providing ever poorer services for ever more money.
            Labour excluded debate, branding those concerned over democracy, immigration, welfare and a host of other issues racists, backward looking or simply hard right wing.

            Labour created thousands of unnecessary laws.
            Labour Invaded our privacy eg. putting microchips in bins,
            Labour used statutory instruments instead of confrontable powers to control us, and mocked our unhappiness at not being able to find work because it was being taken by foreign nationals, all the while silencing the fact that such people would, eventually cause a drain on the state as well.

            Labour pursued a scorched earth policy against the economy and went against the national interest. Instead of reducing welfare and encouraging work they paid people to vote for them.
            Labour involved the country in two wars with their jingoistic and belligerent foreign policy

            In short Labour and it’s supporters are toxic, vile, disgusting, hateful and arrogant.

      • GuyM

        Wembley is full of club supporters in England kits Mike.

        Just becaues Liverpool is a little bit up itself with a chip on it’s shoulder doesn’t mean large chunks of the rest of England regard themselves as English.

        Why on earth should a private business not set up where it suits them? Are you really suggesting business be forced to operate in areas not of their choosing?

        Totally and absolutely bonkers and why business thinks many on the left are total cranks.

        If you are so f’ing good up there Mike, pay for yourself. If you really don’t like London and the South then don’t take our tax receipts then.

        Otherwise all you are is another hypercrit, whining on about the south and it’s values yet more than happy to take tax from it to fund your dysfunctional economy.

    • Anthony Painter

      1. I’m not implying it; I’m stating it categorically.
      2. Nope. I’m arguing for pluralistic representation.
      3. My whole argument is about a English national expression. The point about extremism is about the politics of Englishness. I think you would benefit from a re-read.

      • Diogenes of Sinope

        The English Democrats and English Defence League are both products of New Labour and the policies of New Labour.The English Democrats are wanting to correct the fudged devolution created by New Labour and the English Defence League are working class protesters who oppose Islamism, which grew due to New Labours’ belligerent foreign policy and immigration policy.

      • GuyM

        Can you point me to examples of the English Democrats being “vile extremists”?

        From what I’ve read they class themselves as the equivalent of the SNP (sharing platforms with them) and have made some strong statements against any form of racism.

        I read an official statement they issued last year:

        “We wish to state categorically that at no time have we attempted to initiate any political arrangements with the British National Party as we consider their political beliefs to be an anathema to the vast majority of the people of England. The English Democrats remain, as we always have been, committed to advancing the political, social and economic interests of all the people of England regardless of their race, ethnicity or heritage.”

        That seems pretty clear to me, would you care to show some evidence to the contrary?

        • Plato

          I’m wondering if some are conflating the English Defence League and the English Democrats and then associating both of them with the BNP.

          Don’t know why they don’t go the whole hog and say they’re Nazis. I really do find this sort of stuff very poor form from otherwise informed political types.

          The BNP flourished because Labour accused anyone who didn’t approve of mass immigration and multi-culturalism of racism. This was immensely stupid, since it just pushed the issue into the eager hands of the BNP – the only party not condemning these worried voters.

          Now its the English version of Plaid [who want everyone to speak Welsh] and the SNP who are being accused of racism simply for wanting to be nationals as well.

          This sort of nasty name calling puts me right off. It also adds nothing to the debate.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Homfray/510980099 Mike Homfray

    The problem is that England itself is very diverse and does not have a very strong sense of unity – there are obvious divides such as the north-south (and that is strengthening at present) but also a range of other perceived differences.

    In particular, an attempt to impose an English parliament would be exceptionally unpopular, and I think that Labour voters in the north would be implacably opposed to what would effectively be domination by the Tory south-east. I am sure the Labour party would not support an English parliament

    If regional assemblies are not an option, and I think handled better they still could be (the previouys proposals were a joke and deserved to be defeated) , then the answer might be to strengthen local government and look towards developing the city regions and counties which I think people do have affinity with.

    Really, this should have been sorted out at the time of devolution, but it wasn’t, so its now a case of how to move on from here.

    • Anonymous

      Mike,  That is rubbish. The World Cup, The Ashes, 6 Nations and the World Cup and you will see that Englishness only outlet is through Sport and we are denied to even have our ow Olympic team. I can’t think of any other country hosting the Olympics who can’t put a team in it. Instead we are forced to team up with three other countries who hate us and as you will have witnessed at either Twickeneham, Wembley. the Millenium, Murrayfield, Hampden there is no we are all one happy nation there when England plays Scotland or Wales. The fact that we have separate sporting teams in most sports just highlights what an artifical concept the Union is.

       There are plenty of countries that have much wider diverse differences yet come together as a Nation, particualrly in sport. Have the balls to admit it, Labour is shitting itself because it needs Scotland and Wales to have any chance of taking government in Westminster, you have no chance if there was an English Parliament. English people or sick of forced to be British when Scots and Welsh are told to revel in their own identity.

      • Redshift

        Spain play as one football team – that hardly undermines Catalan or Basque national identity. I don’t think this sporting analogy really proves anything.

        Why should we have an English parliament? As a northerner, that in no way increases my autonomy. If anything it further centralises power in London and the South-East. 

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Homfray/510980099 Mike Homfray

          Exactly, redshift, and it happens to be a fact that the south is predominantly Conservative and the north predominantly Labour. So it wouldn’t be a settlement which would genuinely give power to the English, but to one section – and as a result would breed resentment. Belgium, anyone?

          • Diogenes of Sinope

            What a absurd post. An English Parliament would give power to the people who reside in England. If politicians from other countries are unable to vote on England’s policies then it empowers the English regardless of whereabouts in England they live.This is just another example of your contempt for democracy.
            Comparing England and Belgium is a nonsense, the problem Belgium has is due differences between the Flemings and Walloons. Thankfully there is no such problem in England, even though Labour did a good job in Balkanising and dividing English society.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Homfray/510980099 Mike Homfray

            English identity isn’t in the least important to me, so I wouldn’t wish it to be reflected in a parliament dominated by people who live elsewhere representing entirely different interests

          • Diogenes of Sinope

            I can tell you have not considered the cost of regional assemblies! anyway they have been rejected get over it.

          • derek

            And I can tell your pretty young because before Thatcher and devolution, all areas had a healthy local governments, I’ll give you one area, West Lothian which now employ’s about 9,000, before Thatcher the local government of West Lothian employed over 30,000, built all there own schools, hospitals and so on. Local governments with all the needed powers would be a force for the good of local citizens.

          • Diogenes of Sinope

            I would not have described myself as pretty or young as I am 42 years of age but thank you for the compliments Derek.
            So do you with there to be more civil servants?
            I was under the impression there was already far too many public sector jobs in Scotland.

          • derek

            LoL Diogenes, ya old slapper! whether you’ve got 46% of employment in the public sector and you want to reduce it and increase the private sector, you’ve got to have the jobs there?, I’ve no problem with a 50/50 split and I’m certainly approachable to a 40/60 but more than that, I want more jobs, real jobs, that seems fair to me.

          • GuyM

            So if the Scots get independence you won’t be happy with the resulting democratic structure because not enough people will agree with your politics?

            Best get rid of democracy then eh Mike, can’t have people not agreeing with you can we.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Homfray/510980099 Mike Homfray

            I don’t agree with an English parliament because I think it would not benefit the area I live in and associate with. I’m not in the least interested in the south of England, and wouldn’t make a decision based on what happens there.
            Once it became clear that an English parliament would mean Tory domination, it would not be supported here – that I am sure about

    • Hugh

      “an attempt to impose an English parliament would be exceptionally unpopular”

      Only if Salmond’s attempt to create an independent Scotland is “exceptionally unpopular”: support for the two is practically identical.

      http://www.comres.co.uk/poll/486/bbc-radio-4-scottish-independence-poll-.htm

      • derek

        @Hugh, Yep! Cameron has inadvertently started what will most likely become the fall of Westminster, as the arguments progress, more and more MP’s will realise just like in 1979, that while the South vote conservative the North of England, Wales and Scotland vote another way and it’s extemely unlikey that Westminster will ever have another Scottish or Welsh MP as PM. The  whole system will cascade and regional rainbow parliament are the logical answer for socially minded democrats. 

        • Diogenes of Sinope

          The SNP was founded in 1934, Scottish independence has been a long time coming. It is the SNP heading by Alex Salmond who is bringing about the fall of the British Westminster Parliament.
          As regards to which regions vote for which party, it is not so clear as north red, south blue.
          http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/

          • derek

            @Diogenes, I didn’t mention the founding of the SNP? The SNP became the biggest party by a majority of “one” in 2007 and promised a referendum then? 2010 became the real deal, when the SNP would be returned as a majority party in the parliament, Yes! however, the question of holding a referendum date hadn’t been established until Cameron intervened last week, Yes!, so It’s a save statement to make, that Cameron fired the starting pistol, Yes!.

          • Redshift

            After Labour’s worst vote share since 1983, they still have a clear majority in all 3 Northern regions…

          • derek

            Look, as majority voting goes the North vote labour, Yes! look again at my post, I’ve referred to “Rainbow parliaments”

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Homfray/510980099 Mike Homfray

        I haven’t seen any regional polling for an English parliament, so its hard to say – in Scotland there is a minority in favour of independence

        • Anonymous

          Yes but we do not know how they’ll  vote, as we know according to labour they would have won in Scotland at the last election.

          very dangerous ground to state what may or may not happen in Scotland, I lived  and worked building the Grangemouth Oil refinery and owned a home in Falkirk.

          It will be a lot closer then people think especially if they are offered independence  but stay part of the Union.

    • GuyM

      What you mean of course is the attempt to have the south have the government it wants would be extremely unpopular in the north.

      It seems the south reguarly getting a Labour governemnt that channels money to it’s supporters is what you want Mike.

      A constant whine and bitch fest about down here, but quietly slipping those taxes into your pocket. How morally upstanding you are.

      • http://twitter.com/Newsbot9 Newsbot9

        Oh yes, and you’re mugging people for their cash all the time, laughing. You admit to it constantly. It’s what 1% MEANS.

    • Hamish

      It is defeatist to assume that Labour would have no chance electorally  in an independent England.  Sure in 2010, the Toties would have had an absolute majority if you simply remove the Scottish votes.
      But as I wrote above, Scotland could lead the way in making radical policies credible.

      • http://twitter.com/Newsbot9 Newsbot9

        No, realistic, given Tory gerrymandering.

  • derek

    I wont break out into a “Carpenters” song “It’s only just begun” but the next two and a half years will be dominated by the referendum, where claims for and against will be put forward. My own personal views will be that local authority and local governance will win the day and the days of a centralised Capital city being the centre of the vast majority of wealth will wither and die out and to finish on another musical tune by the “Proclaimers” it’s likely that the new wording could be “London” no more. 

  • Anthony Painter

    Very good. See my response to franwhi above.

  • Anonymous

    You Labour idiots have learnt nothing.  England is a nation too! Deserving of it’s own ENGLISH parliament just as Scotland has.  It seems you still want to fragment England into regions because you know an English only parliament will never have a Labour majority.
     
    Labour’s arroagance and contempt of the English Nation is so obvious “The mistake in the past has been to try to impose a regional system of government on England that is poorly suited to emotional attachments that people have. In some places, regional government may be suitable. In others it will be city or city-region.” Why? We are a Nation too just like Wales and Scotland yet Labour still wants to split our country into regions of areas. How come the like of the Orkneys and Shetlands didnt get offered their own assemblies or North Wales?  Labour let the genie out of the bottle with devolution but good luck to Salmond and the SNP, this has never been an equal Union.  England should be asked if it can have Independence from the rest of the UK, but none of the Unionist parties have offered us even an English Parliament such is their contempt to the largest country in these Islands. The English are expected to be British while the Scots and Welsh can pick and choose. Independent England now!
     
    Oh and calling the English Democrats “Vile Extremists” shows how out of touch and deluded Labour are. If anyone is racist it has been the likes of Labour who under the likes of Blair, Straw and Prescott treated England as a second rate country in the UK.  Straw calling us violent and oppressors and Prescott said En gland does not even exist. Thats exactly why I would never vote for Labour because by trying to fragment England into regions just highlights your contempt for Engalnd who must in your view be a region of Britain.
     

    • Redshift

      The English Democrats membership includes a large proportion of ex-BNP and current or former EDL members. I don’t see a problem calling the likes of them vile extremists at all!

      • Diogenes of Sinope

        Large proportion? would you be kind enough to post some proof of that?

        • Redshift

          Well let’s put it this way. The BNP is in complete crisis, partly as a result of the financial turmoil caused by being sued by Marmite (as farcical as that sounds) . With the party in serious decline, many of their members and activists have jumped ship to the English Democrats.

          I can’t put a figure on it (frankly I’m not sure even the English Democrats can, even if they actually wanted to), but their membership now includes high-profile ex-BNP members like Chris Beverley AKA ‘Aryan Chris’ for those familiar with the documentary Naziboy. 
          They have been publicly criticised by organisations like Hope Not Hate for allowing so many fascists into their ranks. 

          • GuyM

            So post some proof please?

          • Diogenes of Sinope

            Well, that’s one example, but I am not sure one person makes a large proportion. I am not sure what you mean by ‘many’, is that below 10, above 10…more?
            From what I know the EDs and BNP have different agenda. It is curious that some BNP members have moved into the EDs. I suppose individuals political ideas can change over time.

            BTW, have you heard about Trevor Maxfield?, he is a Labour councillor in  Darwen Lancashire, he used to be in the BNP.
            http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/8200722.Former_BNP_activist_made_Blackburn_with_Darwen_s_culture_boss/

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Homfray/510980099 Mike Homfray

            I thought he was a councillor representing the ‘For Darwen’ group, not Labour?

          • Diogenes of Sinope
          • Anonymous

            Ah but it’s OK, just as long as he joins (anti-English) Labour!!

      • Anonymous

        Typical self loathing anglophobic scumbag comment from an anti-English Labour supporter.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Homfray/510980099 Mike Homfray

      I think that the vast majority of people in the north of England would thoroughly resent permanent domination by the Tories of the south-east. English identity is really not very strong, and I think as a political identity is a non-starter

      • happy.fish

        By that I presume you would be happy to ‘abandon’ millions of southern people to permanent tory government despite the fact that they do not support them?

      • Anonymous

        This is just Labour Party talk in the Trinity Mirror Group. You only want a N E Regional Assembly because you know it’s the only assembly you think you will control. Anglophobic diots, the lot fy you.

  • Anthony Painter

    Nationality and citizenship of a nation-state do not necessarily coincide. Scotland, Wales and England are clearly nations.

    If someone asks you what’s your nationality are you saying that ‘English’ can’t be an answer?

    • Anonymous

      Yes. Wales is not and has never been a nation. It is a Principality – hence the reason it has no representation on the Union Flag. England is not a nation state and so English can not be a nationality. I am English but my nationality is British. I would love it to be English. Please give examples of people who are citizens of a nation state who don’t have that nation state as their nationality.

      • http://twitter.com/gonzozzz dave stone

        I’ll offer myself as an example: I, like many others, when asked to describe my nationality always reply: English. Just as many people living in Wales and Scotland describe their nationality as Welsh and Scottish.

        • Anonymous

          You may call yourself what you please but it will not alter the fact that your nationality is British. To petend otherwise is wishful thinking.

          • http://twitter.com/gonzozzz dave stone

            Not so much wishful thinking as social imagining.

            Your denial of my claim to an English identity which, along with many others, I choose to describe as a nationality, reveals your own ignorance of the processes that created the nation state and the transformations of identities and allegiances that can occur within it and may eventually lead to its modification.

            If it was a simple as you seem to pretend we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.

          • Anonymous

            Drivel. I have not denied your claim to an English identity – that is complete nonsense. I believe it is a silly attempt to steer the discussion away from facts. You may feel, as I do, very strongly about being English. It does not take away the fact that your nationality is British. I now realise it wasn’t wishul thinking, it was stupidity. Note that you started the abuse by calling me ignorant. I am not and do understand how nation states are formed. You are living in a world of your own and have no undestanding of why the Scots want to regain their nationality.

          • http://twitter.com/gonzozzz dave stone

            No, not a world of my own – because it is shared with others.

            This sharing denotes common experience and is usually the foundation of nationality and other forms of solidarity.

          • GuyM

            I’ll be watching the Olympics with a Cross of St George at events, not a Union Flag.

            I’m English.

        • GuyM

          Same here.

          I never describe myself as either British or European, it’s always English.

          I don’t for example support Andy Murray at tennis, nor do I support Wales, Scotland of N Ireland in anything, I’m English.

          In fact with Scotland it’s generally “anyone but Scotland”.

          • derek

            Do you apply that rule on all things Scottish?

            You want find that type of bias in Scotland?

  • Daniel Speight

    If Scotland goes with a devo-max I guess we have to consider a more federal structure for Britain.

    May be a good time to ditch the monarchy. I wonder if Blair will run for the presidency.

    • derek

      @Daniel Speight, Brilliant point, The “war of Independence” ran from 1286 to 1328, Independent Scotland would cede it’s Independence in 1707 with the “act of the union” a joining of the crown which was built around the political joining of the Westminster act of the UK parliament. 1999 saw the reconvening of a Scottish parliament and in 2007 the Scottish electorate returned the SNP as the biggest party of the Scottish parliament, that success was exceeded in 2010, when the SNP won a full majority in the Scottish election and the referendum of Scottish Independence became a reality. The SNP want Independence from the political act of the union but also want to retain Queen Elizabeth the II as Queen Elizabeth of Scots pretty much as it was with James the I of England, as James the 6th of Scotland. Interesting times! it’s a political break up and the fact that there is a conservative government adds weight to the argument.   

  • Redshift

    I’d like to see devolution either along regional lines – e.g. I’d be in the North-West. Or I’d like to see the whole north collectively establish some autonomy through a northern parliament/assembly including the North-West, North East and Yorkshire & Humber. 

    At the moment we are really treated as the South-East’s (neglected) back garden.

    • GuyM

      More than happy with that so long as you are also fiscally independent.

      • Anonymous

        They could probably make a good living renting their military bases to the south.

    • Diogenes of Sinope

      I live in the north too and I would not like to see a regional parliament. I just cannot see how breaking up England will help. Are any other countries in Europe governed in this manner?
      All countries have differences but when England needs is for a government to encourage more companies to locate to the north of England. I cannot think of one example where Labour encouraged companies to locate to the north. All Labour did was create more public sector jobs. I have an example of Labour allowing jobs to be destroyed and that is the Kraft takeover of Cadbury’s. Kraft took over Cadbury’s using our taxpayers money from RBS. This makes me sick to my stomach and explains why I have no faith in the current Labour goons.

      • happy.fish

        Germany or any other feederal state for that matter.

      • GuyM

        Ask yourself why companies don’t generally want to move north…..

        • happy.fish

          Because their directors all live in surrey?

          • GuyM

            Because not only their directors but also their staff live in London and the SE.

            So to move north means uprooting all levels of the company or making mass redundancies i.e. spending a lot of money… to what end exactly?

            Even the BBC found a lot of resistance to moving some of it’s functions to Salford.

            I’ve had 3 occassions jobs have moved north and west out of London, each time I turned down the move and got a new role in London.

            In one case an entire department was offered relocation allowances to move and everyone (20 people) turned it down and took redundancy.

            The majority in the south do not want to move to the north.

          • Diogenes of Sinope

            We don’t want people to move north, but if they wish to that is of course fine. If you read my post you will see I said the companies should move north, meaning that people living in the north would be employed by them.

          • GuyM

            Why should companies move north and lose all their staff in the process?

            The management won’t want to move, the staff won’t. Their suppliers will possibly occur increased costs else they have to find new ones.

            They will have to pay redundancy and have the period of complete upheaval in attrition rates and discontent. They would ahve to empploy from a workforce with completely different views on work practices.

            Skilled overseas workers also won’t feel the draw of Manchester, Liverpool or Newcastle as compared to working in London.

            They would be further from leading  international transport routes and further from the EU market.

            There has to be more of a reason that “the north needs some jobs” to get a private business to move.

            It simply won’t happen.

          • http://twitter.com/Newsbot9 Newsbot9

            Of course, because you’re a magic fellow with a wand!

            Hint: Putting your call centres, for instance, in cheaper Northern towns goes over a LOT better than John-in-India.

            But wait, you don’t use a call centre, you call your bank manager. Never mind! 1%’ers live in a different world…

          • Anonymous

            Companies relocate all the time to different parts of the country, probably down to economic factors.

            London is likely to be very expensive for most; eg buying land or rental for property.

            It’s been going on for years anyway; also it’s not possible to generalize about different industries and businesses; for example, in energy and research.

            It wouldn’t be good for the UK economy to have wealth concentrated in only one area; presumably that’s also the thinking behind the HS2 link- connecting up all parts of the country and regions.

            This snobbishness about one region over another is behind the times IMO;
            we are also part of a global economy
            and need to think much more widely
            about diversifying and innovation in many areas.

      • http://twitter.com/Newsbot9 Newsbot9

        Um, yes, LOTS of other countries in Europe are governed in that manner!
        Take a look a map of Germany’s states, for instance…

        “All Labour did was create more public sector jobs.”

        It takes GENERATIONS to undo the damage the Tories do.

  • derek

    So will Cameron become known as the First Minister of Southern England and Ed Miliband as the opposition minister of Southern England, demotion in Action!!!!!

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1314041131 Fungus Addams

    Since when have the English Democrats been  ’Vile Extremists’? I have read their manifesto and they have made it abundantly clear that membership of their party is open to all, regardless of race, colour, creed or sexuality. I fail to see how desiring a Parliament for the people of England, with powers at least comparable to that enjoyed by the Scottish parliament means they deserve to be lumped alongside the racists of the BNP. The author of this piece is clearly ill informed at best, and like most of the bigots of the Labour left is unable to hide his contempt for anything English, which might help explain why England was served so lamentably by the last Labour government, which drove thousands of honest English citizens into the arms of right wing extremists through it’s actions and indifference to their concerns.

  • happy.fish

    It seems that Salmon has already won and sucked everyone into his distorted view of faux nationalism. What people seem to have an issue with is the principle of mass democracy, that decisions might be made which you don’t like because other people want something different. Provided these decisions do not involve discrimination or seek to target minorities then we abide by them according to democratic principle. The logical consequence of the SNP’s argument is for everyman to become an island. In reality there are many scots with as much in common with others in England or Wales as with other scots. Sure having an identity is great and to be celebrated (no matter how historically dubious) but it does not follow that this generates a political unity. The points being made about the aloofness of Westminster from Edinburgh’s affairs could be made by people in Inverness about Edinburgh, or just about any town or city in the UK. This is why we have local government as well as national government to allow local nuances to inform the role of the state. More devolution to local government is the answer to most of the arguments put out by the SNP, as it pursues a 19th century agenda, backed by popular support based upon disillusionment with elites and political leaders in general.

    From what I can see the SNP are actually pushing for some halfway house, where they get the benefits of union with the rest of the nation while getting to pick and chose which other things they have to engage with. A kind of pick and mix approach, for which the rest of the UK shoudl definitely have a say in. Salmon’s own arguments, seem to be based on some assumption that Scotland is already an independent entity, and that for some reason the government of the UK has not authority over Scotland. Last time I looked it was still part of the UK, and the ‘westminster’ parliament represents scotland as much as any other geographical part of the UK.

    We are living in the 21st century, the people of scotland, england, wales and northern ireland are intermixed and geographically spread across he british isles. If we saw indendence for Scotland, what criteria would there be for becoming a Scots national, could we all claim dual citizenship, my grandmother was Scottish, as was my wifes. How many ‘english’ people live in scotland? What would their psoition be? I remained appalled by the underlying themes of this debate, which if you dig down are no different to those which led to the events across the former yugoslavia, (OK i might be getting a bit carried away here but…). England, Scotland and Wales, have shared a monarch for 400 years. For 300 years we have been one country. The history of how this happened may not always be saintly but together we have established a set of principles, values and government that are pretty good. The real issue is about a) local vs national power structures and b) the dominance of any one region over the rest. I’d suggest that independence is not the way for dealing with these issues.

    • http://twitter.com/Newsbot9 Newsbot9

      Maybe you should have considered that *before* clapping on the Government’s spitting in the face of the Scott’s repeatedly.

      I support the Union, but the arrogance being shown from Westminster is NOT HELPING.

  • http://www.barder.com/ephems/ Brian Barder

    An excellent article, Anthony, which ticks almost all the boxes, but with one exception:  why do you so cavalierly dismiss the one eventual solution to the UK’s nationalities problem that could provide a durable democratic relationship between the four UK nations and between the nations and the UK centre — namely a fully federal system?  It’s the logical and highly desirable culmination of devolution, a process which is unsustainable in its present half-finished state, as the mounting pressure for Scottish secession demonstrates.  It would require a separate parliament and government for England (both ideally situated in the midlands or north of England), not in pursuit of right-wing jingoist chauvinism but in the context of a progressive all-UK constitutional settlement.  The Westminster parliament and government, greatly reduced in size and powers, would become what they are already half-way to being already, the federal organs responsible for foreign affairs, defence and trade and any other subjects voluntarily devolved upwards to them by the four national parliaments.  All this would take a decade or more to work through, but its recognition as an ultimate and hugely desirable destination by any one UK political party — why not Labour? — would open a completely new chapter in Britain’s history and politics.

    This and only this would stand a sporting chance of offering an attractive alternative to independence for Scotland, and it would comprehensively answer the W Lothian Question.  Nothing else will do either.  Obvious and less obvious possible objections are dealt with in numerous past posts and responses to comments on my blog

    I have discussed the relationship between some of these issues and the current belated debate on the Scottish independence referendum in a new post at http://www.barder.com/3393.  Comments there would be extremely welcome.

    • Stephen Gash

      Name me one other country that does not have its parliament in its capital city. Why should England have its parliament extracted from its capital city, merely because we are in a union with other countries? These other countries obviously hate England. Devolution has exposed that brutal truth.

      All this talk about England’s home rule would not be happening if England were not in a union. So why the hell should the English want to stay in the union if it means they lose their country, culture and identity, for dubious benefits like being permanently wedged at the bottom of the spending ladder and being denied benefits our surly neighbours enjoy? 

  • derek

    It’s hard to see where the new coalition of unionist Cameron and Miliband go from here on this issue, both would be likely sent home to think again if they tried to campaign in Scotland and it really looks like they both have the biggest vested interest in this issue, Cameron doesn’t want to be the PM that lost the union and Miliband wants to be the PM with the help of Scotland, vested interest! you couldn’t make it up!!!!!! 

  • Gavin Cook

    As a supporter of Scottish independence, it is really good to read the rest of the UK starting to think about the matter in a sensible and coherent manner. I believe in independence because I see that as the natural position for any nation to have, to be responsible for standing on its own two feet.
    However I do recognise the disconnect with Westminster that you describe in your article. I tend to view things like Iraq, expenses or leveson as all being symptoms of a system that is just not fit for purpose. For heavens sake “House of Lords” in the 21st century we have an unelected chamber that owes more to the middle ages than to the digital age.
    I think that you are absolutely correct that the worst thing for RUK is for Westminster to morph into an English parliament, not that I don’t think such a thing is desirable, but they method arrived at is crucial as to its function, otherwise you merely inherit Westminster mark 2.

    • http://twitter.com/Newsbot9 Newsbot9

      So abolish the second chamber and end up with far more dangerous and broader policy swings based on the politics of the day, right. As usual, not properly thought through.

      Moreover, if you’re denying tradition then the *tradition* of Scotland being a separate nation..

  • Anonymous

    Personally, I’ve always found North-East identity to be more important to me than “Englishness”, and I think that’s quite often the case in the NE.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Homfray/510980099 Mike Homfray

      Certainly Scouse identity here on Merseyside dominates all others!

      • GuyM

        You’d never guess, possibly because you all sound like aliens in the way you speak…..

        • http://twitter.com/Newsbot9 Newsbot9

          Of course, people from the “wrong parts” of the country are aliens, not really English and real people.

          Narrow minded as usual!

    • Anonymous

      Absolute Labour rubbish. I live in the N E and I am English and will never be British. You know the N E Assembly will be your only fiefdom (if ever granted) when Scotland goes independent.

  • Diogenes of Sinope

    Baron Foulkes of Cumnock on the Daily Politics has just said that he wishes England to have it’s own Parliament

  • Stephen Gash

    The only reason there is a north-south divide in England is because England is in a union with Scotland. Labour knew that when Scotland gained its own parliament through devolution, the real north-south divide would be highlighted, namely the Anglo-Scottish border. It would rapidly become apparent that all the benefits accrued to Scotland would not be afforded to the north of England, that is Cumberland, Westmorland, Northumberland and Durham.

    To weaken the voice of the north Labour disingenuously and ungenerously split it into two, the north west and north east regions. Not only was this expressly against the wishes of the people in the north, it was deliberately conceived to conceal the real poverty of those four counties.  Cumberland and Westmorland were lumped in with wealthier Manchester and elsewhere.

    Devolution has been an unmitigated disaster for the whole of England, but especially the north, arguably.

    England has been a culturally diverse country based upon its ancient counties. People identify closest with their county and’or city. However, the English all stand together as the English, especially in times of adversity. It is this cohesion, based upon the counties and shires, that Labour sought to destroy with its vicious regionalisation programme. Not that it was only Labour that wanted to expunge England and eradicate Englishness. Tories and Lib Dems enthusiastically joined in the divide and rule onslaught. Indeed, it was John Major’s government tht started regionalisation, merely gerrymandering the borders for Tory benefit.

    If Scotland left the UK the benefits for the north of England would be immediate. An English parliament with both eyes focused on England instead of one on Scotland would siphon the cash that currently floods into Scotland into the north of England instead. The efforts currently made to save the UK would be channelled into benefitting the whole of England.

    Replacing the unelected House of Lords with an elected English Parliament would be the final stage of the devolution project and is the only thing that can now save the union. English people are not foolish enough to see their country dismantled while Wales and Scotland remain intact, for the sole reason of disenfranchising the English. This is especially so with Scots hanging their  damacles sword of independence over the union.

    Re-empowering the counties would also be a result of an English parliament precisely because this is what the people of England want. The people of England are the English, and the British Forward survey clearly showed that the English identity is embraced by people of all backgrounds, over and above that for Britishness.

    Labour refuses to accept this. If it accepted reality and agreed to at least look at an English parliament, before the Tories do, then its fortunes in England would be instantly revived.

  • Stephen Gash

    It is notable that every MP in Scotland that voted for the Scottish parliament, stand shoulder to shoulder in opposition to an English parliament, even a referendum about one.

    Why should we English accept these MPs voting on English matters when they regard us with such low esteem? They are not alone however. Most MPs in England also oppose an English parliament only because it would make them an irrelevance, just as the devolved chambers have in the UK outside of England.

    These MPs have overseen an apartheid perpetrated against the English, notably in education and healthcare.

    Judged on their record so far, why would the English believe that these same MPs would actually fight England’s corner should Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland opt for independence?

  • Anonymous

    I don’t think the NW has a regional identity in the same way though. Just my impression…

    • Anonymous

      OK we in the N E are proud of our region but will always be English first. You are Labour first and will never describe yourself as English. Traitors the lot of you.

  • GuyM

    So in other words it pushes the bar higher for a Labour government.

    Plus in purely English matters if left to only English MPs you need to remove Welsh and Irish MPs as well.

    Also throw into the mix the reduction in MPs and rebalancing of constituency size and see what happens.

  • Diogenes of Sinope

    Another example of Labour’s incompetent policies is Blunkett’s moronic UK-US Extradition Treaty. I bet Richard O’Dwyer who has not broken any British Laws must be ruing that day. He is facing 5 years in a USA jail. This law is completely one way, Britain has most laws created by the EU with this one being created by the USA.
    Gutless corrupt Labour really sold us down the river.

    • http://twitter.com/Newsbot9 Newsbot9

      And the LibDems who said they’d fix it…oh, right, sold out.

  • http://twitter.com/Newsbot9 Newsbot9

    You’ve missed the blatant gerrymandering the Tories are doing then.

  • Dave Postles

    Here’s a test of your Englishness: which of you drives a car manufactured in this country? which of you has a PC assembled in this country?  which of you gives preferential purchase to English-grown food?  If you can’t answer in the affirmative, then please desist about your credentials. 

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Matt-Tysoe/711623798 Matt Tysoe

       After answering those questions, answer this one: why did this happen?

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