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The unbelievable bravery of the coalition government

June 3, 2012 3:37 pm

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Something is different at the heart of our democracy. It’s something we’ve not seen in governments before, at least not in this country.

It’s bold, to say the least. It’s unbelievably brave. It shows a willingness to face criticism, to have a discussion, to listen. It’s new! It is, perhaps, the epitome of the “New Politics”. It is the essence of what was forged in that rose garden two years ago. A portrait of a Government, working together to get stuff right.

It is the Coalition Government looking to the future, together.

And then, upon consultation, poor polling and Ed Miliband winning a PMQs, it is the Coalition Government issuing a clarification that the future to which they had been looking towards was in fact in the opposite direction to which it may have appeared.

It’s the u-turns. Skip tax, charity tax cap, pasty tax, granny flat tax – and that’s just the past month or so. There’s been thirty-four in total. Thirty-four! Thirty four times the Government has had an idea that they’ve thought through enough to want to present to the world as a thing that they want to do and then changed their mind after a shower of abuse. Government ministers have been bravely listening to what they’ve done horribly wrong and then boldly admitting they hadn’t thought it through at all.

“You turn if you want to,” to half quote Thatcher, and that’s just what they’ve done. To half quote Thatcher is fitting for this Government. They are half of Thatcher’s Tories. All the bad politics and none of the competence.

It was Mrs T who, with that famous turn of phrase (pun not initially intended, but now left there intentionally), first gave us the idea that to backtrack on a policy was weak. This is not particularly helpful. Sometimes people do need to change their minds on things in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence. I often make snap judgements on things and then have to defend them even when it becomes clear that I am wrong. For years I had to pretend I didn’t like Arcade Fire because I once told lots of people at a party that I didn’t like them because someone wearing a Muse t-shirt said that they did like them. It was a snap judgement I had to make and, although I maintain that disliking things that people who like Muse like as a principle works as a rule of thumb, I have had to accept this is not a universal truth. U-turns are not inherently a bad thing. An admission of fault is not a weakness.

However, it’s hard to get away from the fact that Cameron’s Tories (and most backtracks seem to be by Tory ministers) have made thirty-four u-turns in two years. You can’t spin that as listening to the electorate or taking on various consultations. If you’ve done something majorly wrong in your job thirty-four times in the past two years, you are doing it wrong.

These ministers have been brave at doing what they’ve done: attempting to run the country when you’re incapable of doing so is a very brave thing to do.

Related posts:

  1. Oldham East is “a test of the coalition government”
  2. The coalition government and social engineering
  3. Candidates asked “Would you be well placed to form a coalition government?”
  4. Thirsk & Malton: The first referendum on coalition government
  5. Another u-turn? Or just another unbelievable mistake?
  • John Dore

    ”
    If you’ve done something majorly wrong in your job thirty-four times in the past two years, you are doing it wrong.” I disagree with this.

    If you’ve done something majorly wrong in your job thirty-four times in the past two years, you should resign. 

    • treborc1

       Must be why Blair left then

  • http://twitter.com/Lance63 Lance Dyer

    I’m all for ‘U-Turns’ after listening to arguments - But what about the NHS debacle – No listening  and no mandate for destroying the NHS; perhaps the most ‘brave’ and foolish action by this basically incompetent Government.

    • treborc1

       No changes yet…. you never can tell.

  • John Dore

    Their is a significance here though. Labour can make much capital for the sheer scale of incompetence. Cameron is doing a worse job than Heath and Labour can return with the coalition effectively losing power through sheer ineptitude. Dare I say it Shame-eron needs a catastrophe that gives him a result. Cant see that happening.

    Unless Alan Giles becomes the campaign manager 2015 will be a walk in the park.

    • AlanGiles

      “unless Alan Giles becomes the campaign manager 2015 will be a walk in the park”

      But of course, whoever becomes campaigns manager will have morons like you on his side, so even then they may snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, because people like you still think New Labour is the answer, when in fact it was part of the problem

      • Bill Oconnor2

        Please stop insulting and abusing people Alan. Engage in debate with them instead. It’s far more interesting and stimulating

        • AlanGiles

          I treat people as they treat me, Bill. “Dore” or “Guy”  keeps making gratutious remarks against me, either to do with my age, political stance, etc.

          “Unless Alan Giles becomes the campaign manager 2015 will be a walk in the park.”

          Was in his last rambling – don’t you think that is a bit abusive?

          The man is claiming to be something and somebody he is not

          He claims also to be a “labour” supporter, but just read some of what he writes:

          “Love Purnell,
          Byrne and Field great men.
          You’re not Labour Alan, you’re a dinosaur, stuck on a keyboard all
          day.”

          http://labourlist.org/2012/05/clegg-would-make-a-very-good-tory-says-tory-mp/#comment-544759547

          The fact that he spends all day every day here AND claims to work (just like “Guy” did) makes him look a bit hypocritical

          • Sherlock

            “Love Purnell,
            Byrne and Field great men.”

            This absolutely has to be an example of alternative humour.

          • John Dore

            Perceptive..

          • Sherlock

            Elementary…

        • AlanGiles

          As you don’t approve of “insulting and abusing” people, perhaps you’d care to explain this from the days when you posted as “William”

          http://labourlist.org/2012/03/budget-day-liveblog/#comment-472720801

          I think, with all due respect, that if you are going to make yourself an arbiter of clarity and decency you shouldn’t hide behind THREE screen names. It looks rather cheap and shoddy.

          Whatever you think of my posts, I always use my own name and I have no non-de-plumes. I wonder why you feel the need tol be so furtive?
           

           

          • AlanGiles

            I should have explained as I am sure “BillOconnor2″ or would be too shy to do so, that if you click on Mr OConnor’s profile it comes up…….. aracataca. Try it for yourself.

            He sounds a nice bunch of guys :-)

          • aracataca

            It was a genuine mistake. But look stop insulting people just debate and argue. It is neither dignified nor edifying to simply abuse and insult others. It gets nobody anywhere.

          • AlanGiles

            What was a genuine mistake?. The “William” insults, click “William” and you get “aracataca”.
            Click “BillOconnor2″ and you get “aracataca”.

            THREE names. One person. That is not “a mistake” that is a rather squalid attempt to deceive.

          • aracataca

            It was a mistake. There you go again resorting to abuse. Just stop.

          • AlanGiles

            I am just asking you to explain what the mistake was.

            Giving yourself 3 screen names?

            Insulting people yourself and then pretending you are against such tactics?

            You said it was a “genuine mistake” and all I am doing is ask you to clarify what “mistake” you are referring to?

            Don’t you think it would be more honest to use one name and stick to it rather than give yourself 2 others?

          • treborc1

             Do they not call that trolling

          • John Dore

            No Trolling is calling people that out argue you Tories.

          • AlanGiles
          • treborc1

             you should know Guy

          • Mattwales

            I think its sock puppeting,
            I loose track of the internet memes.

          • AlanGiles

            I notice with no surprise that “aracataca”, or “BOconnor2″ or “William”, whichever of his three identites he is using today, has been unable to explain what his “genuine mistake” was.

            I suspect this individual is as genuine as a nine pound note.

            He has had 10 hours to come up with something!

          • AlanGiles

            I notice with no surprise that “aracataca”, or “BOconnor2″ or “William”, whichever of his three identites he is using today, has been unable to explain what his “genuine mistake” was.

            I suspect this individual is as genuine as a nine pound note.

            He has had 10 hours to come up with something!

          • aracataca

            OK it was a great conspiracy dreamed up in Blair’s private office and in consultation with James Purnell and Liam Byrne.    

          • AlanGiles

            “aracataca”, “William” or “BOConnor2″, or whatever you will call yourself today.

            I take it you are saying giving yourself 3 I.D.s was “a mistake”.

            How can it be possible to believe a word you say when you choose another name (OConnor) to berate me for “insulting” people, when under your previous 2 names you have done the same thing.

            People can click on your ID and see what you have written under your various names.

            Joker or thoroughly dishonest, it is up to everyone to make their own decision.

          • Aracataca

            Go get your testicles strained!

          • Iain Duncan Smith

            There is no such thing as a “genuine mistake”. I’m afraid I have to fine you £50.00. Thank you in advance for your cooperation and let that be a lesson to you!

          • treborc1

             How the hell can it be a mistake, the two other names you used became to hot for you after you insulted people then to clean the slate you changed your name.

            You say people should debating when are you going to start

          • Jeremy_Preece

            Multiple screen names and using other’s identity is a serious abuse of this site. Since the text is getting narrow I have started my own thread about it on this page.

          • treborc1

             The mistake William was of course you ran away changed your name and came back we all remember you now.

        • treborc1

           William or should I say Bill , your trying to win fairy points and sadly it’s make you look younger then your six years

    • Sherlock

      From the condensed breath on the mirror I deduce that the villain is a toper, Watson. Inform Inspector Lestrade of the Yard post haste!

  • Holby18

    It says something about advisers.  I read somewhere that treasury advisers are all young.  If this is correct then they have not realised that what looks right on paper is not always right in practice. Somehow, I do not think that we will have as many errors in the future.  Individuals do learn from mistakes and i do not think it is bad to reverse policy. 
     
    What everyone omits to cover is that coalition government makes things more complex.  Further, we have to rely on Permanent Secretaries and advisors in the first few years of government particularly when ministers are inexperienced.
     
    I still like Coalition government.  I would not have reversed the caravan tax nor pasty tax.  I have been hit by the o/65 tax and although not wealthy do not want this changed.  I lost more when the 10p tax band was removed even after the u turn at that time (£100). By the time of the next election all this will ahve been forgotten……

    • Amber Star

      “It says something about advisers.  I read somewhere that treasury advisers are all young.”

      I read somewhere that Osborne’s advisers warned him the pasty, granny & charity tax changes would be very unpopular & wouldn’t raise much for the treasury. Osborne ignored them.

      And isn’t it typical that those who lean right politically, always blame the workers not the boss when things go wrong, despite all evidence being to the contrary?

    • Dagon

      What won’t be forgotten is the decrease in the top rate of tax for the millionaires. In fact I’m willing to bet that this will be one of the things that the coalition will be remembered for along with a cart-load of even worse mistakes, cruelties and failures.

      • aracataca

        Would be good though if dropping the tax decrease for those on more than £150,000 were yet another example of  ’resolve, strength and grit’.  

  • TomFairfax

    ‘All the bad politics and none of the competence.’ Any good policies have suffered because of the competence issue as well.

    The competence bit must be especially galling for the Tories outside of Westminster, many of whom are very competent at running organisations.

    Anyone who can stand up and say Jeremy Hunt has acted ‘wisely’ over the Murdoch fiasco is close to appearing to be one slice short of a sandwich. If that ‘s the best they can do, is it any wonder we have the Three monkeys of the government.

    Lansley – hearing no evil
    Hunt – seeing no evil
    and
    Cameron – speaking no evil.

    On reflection, the hearing no evil monkey role has too many contenders within the government to be sure that Lansley can defend that title long against May(Abu Qatada), Osborne (budget), Spelman(forest sell off), & Greening (moving ancient woodlands for the HS2 rail link) .

    • John Dore

      agree with this.

      • Sherlock

        Footprints in the sand. Quick, Watson, make a cast!

  • http://twitter.com/tristanpw1 TristanPriceWilliams

    Surely it is good to u-turn on bad policies. It is bad, however,  to have come up with so many bad policies in the first place.

    Posh boys playing out the roles they have imagined themselves in since Eton, Bullingdon, etc. Very nice game for them, but very bad for the country. 

  • Amber Star

    Cameron’s Tories aren’t turning they are twirling. Budget u-turn bingo: On the cards are abandoning the child benefit changes & backing down on the 3p fuel duty increase planned for August. That 3p rise isn’t going to happen unless it’s off-setting a fall in retail prices because there will be a major public outcry if the current price increases by another 3-4p.

    • aracataca

      Twirling? Not at all-They are demonstrating ’resolve, strength and grit’.  

      • Elder Joseph Brackett

        “To turn, turn, will be our delight ‘Til by turning, turning, we come round right…”

        • Mark

          “… we come round right…”

          Right-wing one assumes.

        • treborc1

           Turning is fine but keep turning you will get giddy and fall flat on ones face.

  • barsacq

    Er no, bravery is what soldiers do, putting their life on the line.  Attributing the epithet to politicians merely demeans all those who have given their life for others.

    • treborc1

      When you give your life and you call them brave it helps the family not the dead person, once your killed your out of it, what is brave to me is the person who comes back with disabilities no legs no arms or suffering from serious mental health problems, because those people had to live within the New labour idea of you being a cheat or scrounger.

      I will never forget Brown taking a young soldier to court over his compensation package, and when the courts agreed with family, Brown then saying we will appeal, thankfully Brown was not given the chance.

      people ask me why I dislike the new labour tribe and Brown was one of them , that’s why, the soldier in question had massive brain injuries, we are talking here about £250,000 compensation it was a disgrace.

      And then out of spite Labour demanded that soldiers go through the medical and the WCA as if they were nobodies.

      So yes knock the Tories as much as you like, but do not forget who put in the ground work

  • Mr Deedes

    Now hang on a minute…

    If you fill in a form to claim benefits and make a mistake you get fined £50.00 and accused of attempted benefit fraud whereas if you’re a member of the coalition and make umpteen mistakes and U-turns you get called  ”courageous” and “brave”.

    Shurely shome mishtake?

    • AlanGiles

      Exactly. This has what has always angered me about people such as Grayling, Gove, Duncan-Smith, McNulty, Byrne and Purnell. When they made “mistakes” on their expense claims forms, all but two of them got away with it (Purnell stood down in 2010, and McNulty’s brazen atempt to be re-elected failed).

      Had they been DWP customers making exactly the same mistakes, they would have been charged, appeared in court, and might possibly have found themselves serving a prison sentence – and let’s face it, in the case of the 6 men listed none of these were geniuine “mistakes” =- they were deliberate attempts to obtain monies they were not entitled to.

    • http://twitter.com/mistyblulabour dave stone

      Well, there’s bravery, mistakes, mishtakes and idiocy. Bravery requires an awareness of context so the coalition have majorly disqualified themselves.

      I’d put it down to idiocy.

    • Mark

      Cameron believes in second chances for roguish henchmen like Andy Coulsen, but not for distraught men and women down on their luck who are forced to apply for help from the state. I thought everybody knew that. Blimey.  

      • treborc1

        Seems to be a problem with leaders and spin doctors,.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Simon-Gamble/100002297342997 Simon Gamble

    When an departmental official, intelligence officer or whoever suggests a policy to a mininster, there are a number of questions which should be asked.  For example, how many times have you suggested this before?  Why did previous ministers not take up your suggestion?

    Most of these bad policies have probably been knocking around the civil service for years and have been rejected by a succession of ministers.  Unfortunately Cameron’s ministers appear to be too stupid to question their officials.

  • http://profiles.google.com/roger.f.mccarthy Roger McCarthy

    Great piece.

    Disagree on one thing:

      ’although I maintain that disliking things that people who like Muse like as a principle works as a rule of thumb, I have had to accept this is not a universal truth’ 
    It IS a universal truth.

    And it is a truth that can handily be tested by reading Mark Beaumont’s painfully pretentious articles at the Guardian – as Mr Beaumont does not just like Muse but even boasts of having written what I suppose has to be called a book about them.

  • http://profiles.google.com/roger.f.mccarthy Roger McCarthy

    More generally people are missing the whole point of this government which is not to rebuild the British economy or even to win re-election but rather to use the global depression to destroy the welfare state.

    This for them has now become a suicide mission – they know that politically at least they are not coming back.

    But being the very poshest of posh boys Cameron, Osborne and Clegg know that they really won’t have to die in the ruins they create but can parachute to safety and look forward to a long and luxurious life enjoying the boundless gratitude of the corporations that they are serving. 

    • treborc1

      So what has changed we have had the last seventeen years of it

    • John Dore

      Do you really believe this stuff?

      • treborc1

         Guy your slipping back mate.

        • John Dore

          I dont know who Guy is, but I know you’re a class one prick full of your own self importance. Either come back me with a sensible points or please in the nicest way f-off.

          • treborc1

            Never mind Guy at least your being your self now.

          • John Dore

            F*cking chav.

          • treborc1

            hav, ( /ˈtʃæv/ CHAV, also CHAVER) is a pejorative epithet commonly used, chiefly in the United Kingdom, to belittle.[1] The term indicates a derogatory stereotype created in the British mass media to refer to working class youth subculture in England.[2] The fashion is derived from American Hip hop. Those so termed tend to have a dislike of Goths and Emos as well as other ‘alternative’ subcultures.[3]

            Thanks  mate, working class…. that’s me mate.

          • AlanGiles

            “Chav” of course as well as “F off” were favourite terms of Guy. “Mr. Dore” will be talking about “the lower classes” soon

          • John Dore

            Somebody has impersonated me to elicit a response from the two forum idiots. 

            Jackpot it worked.

          • AlanGiles

            “Idiots”?

            You manage quite well to give a similar impression with your ranting about “fecklessness”

          • treborc1

            Your  doing well guy mate.

          • John Dore

            1 I’m working class too, but don’t feel the need to fly a flag about it.
            2 Call me mate if you like, but I actually don’t like your sanctimonious and bigoted atitude.

          • John Dore

            Whoever the moderator is here, I suggest you check the “IP address of the person who posted that.

          • treborc1

             they’d only find it’s you

          • John Dore

            Just the kind of remark you’d expect from that superior intellect of yours. I guess you have made a wonderfully huge contribution to our country and its people.

            What chance does the Labour party have its got people like you shutting down any discourse that doesn’t suit your  agenda?

          • treborc1

            And next we will be told I did not write that, poor old thing

          • John Dore

            Click the profile pic and you’ll know who it is. Technology a bit hard for you?

          • treborc1

             Why seems they both are so good at being you whats the point

  • AlanGiles

    In all honesty Cameron will look a joke, a dillitante,  bogus, until he finds the courage to sack Jeremy Hunt, not to mention Andrew Lansley and Baroness Warsi, that oh-so-forgetful woman (when it suits her).

    But Cameron isn’t the only one with liabilities on his front bench. Is he?

    More worrying is that despite the frequent and numerous problems Cameron has, all it seems to be doing is to make the Coalition less popular, and Labour seems unable to build on this, except in frivolous ways like posh boys in Greggs.

    The greatest problem for Labour is that there is a large swathe of young “Labour” MPs, and hacks and ordinary supporters who are convinced that the problems of today and tomorrow lie in the solutions of 1997-2007 – ladle out more New Labour and the grateful public will swallow it like tonic wine, convinced it will do them good. But it won’t – New Labour is now discredited, they have been rumbled. With all three main parties offering basically the same solutions – all of which have failed to work and been seen to fail – all that will happen is that 2015 will see yet another hung Parliament, and the best Labour can hope for will be that they will be the ones this time able to concoct a coalition.

    It’s time to start devising a genuine alternative, and time is running out

    • aracataca

      I would like to see you head up the National Policy Forum in order to start devising that alternative with Treborc as your number 2. You both scream Labour values and you could both use your undoubtedly impressive negotiating skills co-ordinating and developing policy in consultation with branches and CLPs right across the country. 
       I would like to see this happen immediately.  Sadly, but inevitably, it would mean that you both spend less time on here.

      • AlanGiles

        As a trickster who has posted under three different names, if I were you I should be a bit careful. Treborc is disabled, I am retired, but both us only post under one name.

        I think your posts are totally bogus, and even your attempts at humour are brain-dead

        You must be very thick-skinned to keep coming on here now you have been rumbled. “William”/”BOConnor2″/”aracataca”, and I wonder “John Dore/Guy” as well?.

        As it is not possible to take you seriously due to your bogosity, why not do us all a favbour and p!ss off.

        • jaime taurosangastre candelas

          There is a Mr William O’Connor who contested a Cambridgeshire ward as a Labour candidate in the 2009 council elections, and Aracataca has previously shown some inside knowledge of Cambridgeshire politics – he disagreed with me that Cambridge was a declining prospect for Labour.  He may be right, or wrong on that – it is a matter of opinion.

          • treborc1

            And if he’s not the candidate, but a person who changes his name because he does not like the arguments.

            Respect has to be earned.

          • AlanGiles

            Jaime if it IS the same person, he needs to earn respect, and one way he could do that would be to stick to one name.

            A “mistake” is when you transpose letters in a word when you are typing, or get a name wrong, or write “there” when you mean “their”

            Deliberately giving yourself three identities on one site  is NOT a mistake – it is a calculated act to deceive, and when he changed his name to complain about me “insulting” a poster, and you click on the  name and find, undfer two different names he is guilty of the same offence (frequently) then not only is he deceiving he is being hypocritical as well.

            Again if it is the same person, with his liberal use of words like “crap” no wonder the electorate didn’t consider him suitable for office. Would you vote for him? I certainly wouldn’t. You can’t get the staff these days! :-)

          • jaime taurosangastre candelas

            Alan,

            you may well be right, although I do also feel that a Labour saint would find it hard to get elected to a council position in Cambridgeshire (the shire, not the City), so you cannot fault a man for trying.  It is not very Labour in these parts.  The big battle seems to be between UKIP and the tories, the Lib Dems, Labour and the Monster Raving Loonies coming anywhere between 3rd and 5th.

            I’m not sure what to make of anyone having several identities on the internet.  I post on LL using a Hispanicisation of my legal name as some form of slightly anonymous veil – this enrages Dave Stone who cannot find me on the GMC database, but it is done to deliberately draw a distinction between my professional work and my individual feelings on politics.  The two are completely unrelated, nor should be.  I do contribute to a forum hosted by the College of Emergency Medicine (actually, I believe the costs of the website are paid by a commercial company as a sponsorship) under my proper name, but that is password protected and only available to registered participants.  It is also entirely technical, not political.

            I do think you are wrong in your views of GuyM and John Dore – the language seems completely different to me.  They may have similar outlooks, but the linguistic fingerprint appears different.  I don’t know what happened with GuyM – I think Mark F probably blocked him – but while his views were certainly a little “eye-popping” at times, he was actually quite good at indicating the Labour Emperor sometimes had no clothes on***.  I do not get that sort of insight from John Dore.  But who knows?  I may be completely wrong, and your insight is better than mine.

            Lastly, may I ask for a favour?  It is my old man’s 75th birthday this year, and I would like to buy him some music.  He is very much in favour of the “Original Dixie Jazz Band”, but he has all of their recordings already.  What would be a similar CD to that style of Jazz, but that he does not already have?

            ***This is an occupational hazard for all politicians.  David Cameron routinely walks around with no policy clothes on, as will Alec Salmond be shown to do.

          • treborc1

            I would say Miliband is pretty naked then.

          • AlanGiles

            Jaime. At least you keep to one name. I frequently disagree with Jon Roberts, Paul Richards and Rob Marchant, but they, too, are honest and don’t post under multiple names. I strongly and honestly feel that when somebody like “aracataca” attempts to deceive they have lost all credibility and should leave the site.

            If this person is the candidate you mentioned I think Cambridge deserves somebody better.

            As regards the music, you have caught me in my blind spot – I know very little about jazz of the ODJB vintage (circa 1919), but always trying to help out, there are a couple of record labels that deal with very early jazz (the greatest sound restoration expert of pre-electric recordings was the late John R.T. Davies, who also played trombone, and many of the recordings he remastered are still available; also of course as the records are well outside the age of copyright protection they are available to any company who wants to issue them.

            The main producer of these sort of reissues is Retrieval Records and I enclose a link to what is available from one of the biggest specialist record suppliers in the UK

            http://www.crazyjazz.co.uk/labels/r/retrieval.htm

            You could always contact them and see if they have any recommendations. Some writers and arrangers have attempted to recreate the music of earlier times like for example, British arranger, Alan Cohen who recreated the Paul Whiteman Orchestra of the 1920s for stereo recording purposes in the 70s and 80s.

            I think the oldest musician in my collection would be Kid Ory (1886-1973) who played the trombone, and recorded with an old hero of mine, Red Allen (1908-1967), a player who IMO was the equal of Louis Armstrong.

            I hope this helps a bit

          • jaime taurosangastre candelas

            Alan,

            thank you for that link.  I will follow your advice and buy from them.

            I know what will happen – my father will put a CD on continuous play while he “learns” it, and my mother will get irritated on the 10th repetition and cut the electrical cord (this has happened in the past).  I think I should probably include some headphones in the package, so they can both be happy.  He may be about to be 75, but she has spent nearly 48 years with him, and that needs a reward by itself!

          • Jeremy_Preece

            Jamie, regarding Jazz, if you like thge early 1920′s stuff I would look out “Jelly Roll Morton and his Red Hot Peppers”, and maybe the early Louis Armstrong etc.  

      • treborc1

        William mate try it your self I’m sure your local party would be willing to give you a change, but for gods sake stick with one name .

  • LondonStatto

    Your assumption that all 34 changes described by the media as u-turns are actually major is rather heroic too.

  • Tom Wildy

    Who are Arcade Fire, and what is Muse?

    • Not Amused

      What a super-massive black hole.

  • jaime taurosangastre candelas

    To Mark Ferguson,

    it would perhaps be an improvement if the software for posting comments on LL did not allow “hijacking” of other’s identities.  It seemed to have a flare up a month ago – there were many who were victims, and there are a couple of comments below that appear to fall into the category.

    It is not only duplicitous, but restricts trust and restricts debate.  It is also too easy to comment on LL.  I discovered this a while back when my wife and her best friend used my laptop to make some very inappropriate remarks on LL, both of them drunk.  There should be some form of passcode to actually make a post.  They are both sorry and contrite, and I apologise to Brumanuensis for Bingo’s comments.

    If every computer has an IP address, this should not be too difficult?

    • AlanGiles

      Quite right, I agree absolutely

      • treborc1

        Seems people are being copied again, sad that people do this but it happened on labour home and in the end it got so bad they had no option but to close the site down.

    • Stocky

      You can’t identify people by IP if they use a 3G phone, or mobile broadband dongle, or a proxy server, or a dynamic DNS service, or go through an anonymising/virtual network and similar. In cases like these IP addresses are doled out to users dynamically whenever a user connects to the internet and have no permanent association with a user as is the case with a landline connection via a router.

    • Brumanuensis

      Well, that’s a bit of a pisser. I thought that Bingo was good for a shag and no mistake. What a disappointment.

      • Jaime Taurosangastre Candelas

        No, no, no. She… or should I say we… are up for it as long as you pay for the condoms and I get to watch. Deal?

        • jaime taurosangastre candelas

          That was not me. The “Activity” box on the profile shows only three posts.

          • treborc1

             I need not look to know it was not you, the language was all wrong.

        • AlanGiles

          That “Brumanuensis” response is also fake.

          Please Mark, can this not be sorted out?. It’s bad enough we have “genuine” Purple Books and the man with three identities, without  having amateur hoaxers as well

  • Dave Postles

    What’s the difference between a Hunt and a Warsi?  One is referred to the adviser on the ministerial code and the other isn’t.  Brave  Cameron goes with the flow again.

    • Dave Postles

      The bravest animal in the land
      Is Double-Dip Davey and his band
      Who wanted to sell off the woodland
      Singing songs of tales how they have righted wrongs.

      Hang on – here’s Hissing Sid Osborne
      And Weasel Jeremy Hunt
      And Smith the Stoat
      And Cuckoo Lansley
      And Moley Clarke

      • TomFairfax

         I hope Captain Beaky forgives the comparison you’ve just made.

    • TomFairfax

      He doesn’t need Warsi as a human shield against the Murdoch manure coming his way.

  • Jeremy_Preece

    Sometimes U turns are a sign of the courage to admit an error, sometimes they can be a sign of floundering and not knowing what you are doing.
    The number of U turns of this coalition suggests the latter to me. Moreover, there is a very sinister tendancy of this government to present a middle of the road image and then try to slip in ever more toxic policies. The U turns seem happen when the public cries “foul” and like a naughty little boy, the government realises that they can’t get away with that one, and so give up.

    I don’t get the feeling that there is strength and principle going on here. I feel that it is a very shifty and shabby government trying to sneak in the ultimate Tory dreams of forever destroying the welfare state, destroying all right of working people and creating a third world eceonomy where the very rich clean up everything from the rest. They do it by banging on about the deficit, while their policies do not actaully help the deficit, but simply create the sort of national emergency feeling whereby people might accept the unacceptable.

    By this I mean, dicators such as Pinochet in Chile banged on about a Communist threat long after he had killed the Marxists, and used it as his cover for purging his country of all political opponents. So we are supposed to believe that while the destruction of the NHS is normally unacceptable we all face the terrible deficit and so we have to put up with facing the unnaceptable. Because there is economic slow down and high unemployment, we are supposed to accpet that we have to see all workers rights abandonded, and a general driving down of wages that will make the UK somehow more competative. However it is only a smoke screen. The real issue is that the Tories want to make the rich richer and the poor poorer, and their government is made up mostly ofthe very rich.

    The U turns are simply the result of trying out so many toxic policy ideas that have not got electoral mandate. It is an exercise of a very posh Auther Daily trying all the time to pull a fast one and sneak another nasty one under the net.   

  • Dan Mccurry

    That’s a great line:
    “If you’ve done something majorly wrong in your job thirty-four times in the past two years, you are doing it wrong.” 

  • Jeremy_Preece

    I like to look at the articles on LabourList whenever I get the chance, and I also like to comment, and sometimes we get interesting discussions going.

    My name appears on everything that I write as Jeremy_Preece. There is a good reason for this, it is because my name is Jeremy Preece. What I write is what I think, and I try to just be myself. I respect that some people have their own reasons for using a screen name that is not their real name, even if I prefer to simply be myself.

    Generally there is a high quality of comment and debate on these pages. We have different opinions otherwise there would be no need to debate. Very often in arguing we learn, and speaking for myself, it helps me to explore what I believe by explaining it and debating with others. It is nearly always the case that we do so on these pages with respect.  

    One thing that really ruins this website is the idea of one person pretending to be several people, by using different names. It spoils the quality of the site. However, what really is the absolute pits is when some person uses someone else’s screen name and writes under another’s identity. 

    As I said, we usually debate respectfully on these pages. The biggest noticable exception is the comments which turn out to be the bogus user, who is using someone else’s name. I see that it is happeneing again on this page. Alan Giles is one victim that springs to mind, and he has used an elaborate system of quoting Jazz musicians to show that they really are his postings. Really no one should have to go to this trouble.

    I don’t have enough technical knowledge to answer this directly, but is there a way that people using more than one screen name, and especally people pretending to be another user could be blocked from the site?

    • John Dore

      It shouldn’t be difficult linking the screen name to an email address, that way nobody could mess with the system. Once a name is associated with an email address it shouldn’t be able to associate it with any other. Webmaster?

      • Jeremy_Preece

        That would stop the identity thieft, so no one could write as someone else. This would be a big improvement. 

        One person using multiple names seems more difficult though. I suppose that anyone with more than one email address could still set up a different user name for each address. Can’t see a way around that one. Having to use real names might help – what do people think?

        • Marvin

          How can you check that a user’s name is really their legal name? I don’t know any blog where anything like that happens. Masking real identities with user names is pretty much needed, accepted and universal. 

          • treborc1

             I do not mind telling people my name it’s easy to find anyway.

    • MonkeyBot5000

      I don’t have enough technical knowledge to answer this directly, but is
      there a way that people using more than one screen name, and especally
      people pretending to be another user could be blocked from the site

      Short answer; no – you just have to get out the banhammer and play whack-a-mole with people who pop up to be abusive.

      Long answer;

      This site use the Disqus system for comments and LL don’t have control over verifying identities for that service. I created this account for another website but the Disqus software let’s me use it here as well.

      It’s possible to ban duplicate usernames, but it’s a lot harder to stop me making an account for “Jeremy Preece” or “JeremyPreece”. They’re the same to us, but a machine would see them as unrelated. There’s also the problem that people will occasionally have the same name through sheer chance.

      If LL ran it’s own user database, you could still set up multiple email accounts and register under several names. That can only be stopped if you have moderators with access to the server’s logs and the ability to track the IP addresses of posters so you can see that 5 different people all seem to be using the same IP address.

      • Jeremy_Preece

        Thank you “MonkeyBot5000″, (which I assume is not your legal name!).

        That seems to be a pretty comprehensive answer. However we certainly do need to see some action taken to sotp this site from being ruined by a few people who just want to be abusive. Perhaps those who run this site could look at users, email addresses and same IP addresses popping up from supposidly different users.

        How about it webmaster? 

        • Stocky

          IP addresses cannot be guaranteed to identify users who access the internet wirelessly, e.g., by 3G or Wi-fi. Also, people who post using borrowed equipment, e.g., Library or Cyber Cafe computers, cannot be identified by IP.

          If you simply block users who have different IPs each time they post you will block every 3G phone user, every mobile broadband dongle user, every Wi-fi user, every user that posts from a library or cyber cafe or similar, everybody using a DNS service, everybody using a Virtual Private Network or anonymising service like TOR. 

          IP addresses do NOT identify users uniquely they only identify, quite often dynamically and temporarily, DEVICES to receive data packets via TCP/IP.

          Block by IP and baby gets thrown out with the bath water.

          • MonkeyBot5000

            It’s true that one user can legitimately be posting from several IP addresses, but if you have several users posting from one IP address in a short space of time, it can be an indication of someone using multiple accounts.

            Unless they’re all on the same university/company network of course. You don’t want to accidentally ban a whole university.

            IP addresses can point you towards dodgy accounts but you still need to manually ban the account rather than block the address.

          • Stocky

            I can’t see LabourList being able to monitor IP addresses and associate them temporally with duration of use and frequency of use and then set up coded rules to block IPs which have been used by x users over y hours or whatever on the server side.

            The simplest way to impede trolling is:

            (1) Get rid of the guest account;

            (2) Have a better user registration where users register online using their email address and a pasword and then get them to confirm their registration via a link sent to them in an email sent to the email address nominated during the registration process to prove that email address was active and that the mail was read by a user.

            (Many sites make use of (2) above.)

            This isn’t perfect but would discourage trolling since if a user got blocked his/her email address would also be permanently be blocked meaning that he/she would be forced to create another email address and re-register under another identity. The extra bit of work might discourage idiots from taking the trouble to be a pain. 

          • MonkeyBot5000

            I’m not talking about auto-blocking the IPs, but rather looking at the logs to confirm someone with multiple accounts once suspicions have been raised. You still manually block the account rather than the IP.

            I’d put it as number (3) on your list as a way to counter those who set up multiple emails to get past number (2).

          • Stocky

            OK.

            I don’t know whether I’m helping matters by saying this but the real problem faced by LabourList is the guest account – something you really don’t want on any computer system or network in any way, shape, or form – because it allows people to post using made up names and email addresses without having to properly log on.

            I bet if you got rid of the guest account a lot of trolling would disappear overnight.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000917987009 Samuel Theodoridi

    Brave, But stupid, very very stupid
    Thank god they’re so damn incompetent  

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