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Tory MP tells caller to join the BNP during furious radio row

May 30, 2012 9:52 am

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http://twitter.com/HarryThompson11 Harry Thompson

The fact that Tories think that a fierce pride in the Welsh language (whether you speak it or not) equates to a BNP-like level of prejudice against the English probably explains their current dismal state of affairs in Wales.
- Mike
  
  She was clearly prejudiced against the English. What more can Davis do to integrate? He knows the language better than she does and better than most of the Welsh!
  - treborc1
    
    Do you speak Welsh
    - Mike
      
      No, what difference does it make? David Davis does, he lives in the Wales, but the simple fact of being born the other side of an arbitrary line means he’s ‘English’ and therefore apparently worthy of scorn. Nationalism is reactionary to its core, and Welsh nationalism preaches an elitism seeking to turn Wales into a museum for a distorted ‘Owain Glyndwr’ version of history in which the English are the devil. It’s the same kind of analysis which led Saunders Lewis to his support for Hitler’s anti-Semitism and the offer by Plaid Cymru to the Third Reich to form a government in Wales when the Nazis invaded Britain. It is dangerous and divisive and holds nothing for socialists.
      
      Instead, a true, nuanced Welshness. Llafur Gwerin, Goronwy Roberts, etc. Not an anti-English fascism.
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        Mike – historically, despite making efforts to learn Welsh, David Davies has campaigned for its removal from schools – it was the platform on which he initially fought for his Assembly seat. The caller, while clearly out of her skull with anger, was citing the removal of opportunities in Welsh history for people to learn the language, creating the dominance of English use today. The current Anglo environment is a product of the issues she cites, not a historically consistent reality.
        
        Your point on Saunders Lewis though is remarkably dense and cherry picked. You have associated pacifism with support for antisemitism. Not bright.
      - Mike
        
        Saunders Lewis was not a pacifist, actually. Far from it.
        
        -”At once he fulfilled his promise — a promise which was greatly mocked
        by the London papers months before that — to completely abolish the
        financial strength of the Jews in the economic life of Germany.”
        
        Etc. Bebb, another founder, was open about his fascist leanings. And it is well recorded historical fact that Plaid sent a delegation to Nazi Germany offering to form a government if the Nazis invaded Britain. All nationalism has at least a latent racism, and this comes through in periods.
        
        Whatever he has campaigned for, here he is right. Public sector workers should not have to speak Welsh, and his non-nationalist views do not make him any less Welsh. Theoretically, how could he or any English person be accepted by Welsh nats like the woman here? He’s moved to Wales, he has learned the language. But still he’s maligned for being born in England.
      - treborc1
        
        Obviously people think different
      - Mike
        
        Obviously, but some think offensively. As Nye Bevan argued, nationalism is a ‘bourgeois illusion’ and all it does is turn Welsh working people against other working people due to the geography of their birth.
      - John Dore
        
        Logical.
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        So where does pride in a nation and its language stand in your assertions? Are these not the trappings of nationalism, and as such, evil little devices. National museums and libraries are surely the same, do away with them as well, for they are the product of nationalism…
      - Mike
        
        They are evil when they are forced, hurting the majority. You cannot compare a museum to the policy of only employing Welsh speakers in a country where most people don’t speak the language. It’s elitist, and it’s divisive, and it will do more harm than good even to your own cause.
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        No Mike, you really can. You paint nationalism with one giant broad brush, but ignore all the positive contributions made by it to society today. Think national institutions are formed without nationalist sentiments at their heart? Think someone might be a little naive when it comes to the way nations are formed.
        
        But heck Mike, you are a source of entertainment, naive head in the sand entertainment.
      - Mike
        
        Naive in the head to think that the casual acceptance of fascism is wrong? I’m not naive, just not a purveyor of nationalistic myths and animosity based on nothing more than geographical area of birth.
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        Naive to argue that the casual acceptance in one man’s views
        is representative of an entire political mindset. Nationalists equally are not
        purveyors of ‘myths’, take a look at the party today rather than base your
        entire analysis of the nationalist movement in Wales on the actions of one man
        several decades ago.
      - treborc1
        
        Thats us Welsh for you we still get p*ssed off with being invaded
      - robertcp
        
        The Normans invaded my part of Wales shortly after they invaded England. It was North Wales that the Anglo Normans invaded in a date that I have forgotten. 12??
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        Again, your interpretation of offers to form governments as the formation of a fascist alliance is, put simply, bonkers, but well done for blindly pressing on with it. Your views on nationalism seem to be based on greater education than GCSE history, such is the depth of its analysis.
        
        Davies is maligned for consistently campaigning against opportunities being provided for people in Wales to learn Welsh. Though to run with your concept, surely this means that you no longer need to speak English to work in Britain generally, that is what you are arguing yes.
      - KonradBaxter
        
        Any response to this?
        
        “At once he fulfilled his promise — a promise which was greatly mocked by the London papers months before that — to completely abolish the financial strength of the Jews in the economic life of Germany.”
        
        Lewis on Hitler.
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        Hehe, has someone been reading wikipedia today…? Your ‘research’ will no doubt point to the fact that plenty of prominent politicians of the time made comments that could be seen as favoring elements of the politics offered by both the Nazi regime, and other related entities of the era, yet you have no problem makings this a Saunders specific issue it would seem (when historically it was not).
        
        Saunders Lewis’ issues with the Jewish community are no secret, but you are attempting to turn this into a case for Lewis being in league with the Nazi’s, leading the Reich in the British Isles. Your leap from label to interpretation is the problem with your arguments. They remain deeply flawed.
        
        N.B. Please both do attempt to read further than the first hit you get in a google search…
      - Mike
        
        ‘Issues with the Jewish community’ – This must be a joke. Exactly what have you read of Saunders Lewis? I advise you read his poems and his articles in the 1930s and 40s if you can get hold of them, they show the nature of the man and his movement. Read Bebb, and what he has to say about Action Francais.
        
        The fact that numerous people supported Hitler does not justify his support for Hitler’s anti-Semitic policies at all. To think so is ludicrous.
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        Yet you would still isolated him because of it, even though you can make the exact same argument of any number of high profile and more influencial politicians of the time than he – flawed.
        
        You also seem to be making the claim that these views are representative of Plaid Cymru, then and now, you certainly make no distinction. Again, flawed, entertainingly so, but flawed.
      - Mike
        
        ’Flawed’ is an understatement! Support for fascist anti-Semitism = flawed! Lol! I’m not saying that such extreme prejudice is characteristic of plaid, but it is a significant strain of its ideology ans it is of all nationalism. I’ve certainly seen a fair amount of anti-English, anti-Muslim, anti-Chinese bigotry from nationalists.
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        Of all examples of nationalism, and all nationalists it
        would seem to be in your view. Again, I take you back to the national museums
        in Wales, and, heck, everywhere. Is the National Museum anti all of the above?
        Does it enforce its ideology on the repressed English majority? Well, an
        intellectual could probably piece together an argument in favour of that
        sentiment, though it would be inaccurate for the Welsh museum network, and you
        sir are clearly no intellectual to attempt such a feat in the first place. Does
        St Fagans, born of nationalist Plaid Cymru steered ideology, spit on the Jew?
        Good luck pushing that line. You have taken two examples, of two Welsh
        nationalists, and used it as a platform for deriding all nationalist
        sentiments. It is a fool’s argument which you present, and makes you, in your
        own blind defence of it, seem as guilty to the level of intolerance of the
        views of others for which you are so keen to condemn Welsh nationalists of.
        Keep digging though, you amuse me.
      - treborc1
        
        T he Duke of WindsorMust have been Welsh
      - KonradBaxter
        
        No, I was just interested in who this man was and his comment is quite well known, featuring on a variety of sites and in various debates.
        We’re not talking about politicians admiring elements of the fascist / Nazi programme in the 1930’s, but an anti Semitic statement. How many prominent politicians of the time made statements specifically endorsing the removal of Jewish people from German political and economic life?
        I have said nothing about Lewis being in league with the Nazis’ but his comments put him in a similar, if large, bracket.
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        So you are not saying it, but you are admitting to putting him in the same bracket as someone who is in league with them, riiight…
      - KonradBaxter
        
        Please pay attention.
        
        I have not said that Lewis was in league with the Nazis or wanted to form a government with the Nazis.
        
        But his clear statement praising the removal of Jews from economic life in Germany clearly put him in the same bracket as the Nazis themselves.
        
        How many prominent politicians of the time made statements specifically endorsing the removal of Jewish people from German political and economic life?
      - Mike
        
        How is it bonkers? Founded by people who openly identified with fascists, especially of the French far-right, making anti-Semitic comments congratulating Hitler (have you read Saunders’ Lewis at all? The ‘Hebrew’ enemy constantly comes up, he hated Jews more than the English) and offering to form a Vichy-style government after the invasion of Britain by the Nazis? Does that not sound fascist to you?
        
        Here, the issue isn’t about opportunities to learn Welsh. Those opportunities are there whether nationalists take them or not. It is about forcing public sector workers to be speakers. There are areas where Welsh speaking is less than 10%, and public services rely on non-Welsh speakers. What future for the Welsh language when the economy collapses and young Welsh people have to move away to find jobs and homes?
      - treborc1
        
        Lower down you state about Plaid being in league with Hitler.
        
        This from a country who had a Prince who spend a long hour talking to Hitler about being the King of England.
        
        What Plaid did when they were a Tiny voice in a wilderness.
        
        But as we know the Royal has serious problems with some of their own.
        
        throwing stones and all that dear boy
      - robertcp
        
        I am Welsh but cannot speak Welsh. Plaid is now a party of the centre-left but all nationalism can lead to fascism and racism. The BNP and EDL are good examples of English nationalism.
      - treborc1
        
        What a load of twaddle.
      - Elliot Bidgood
        
        The woman was hysterical and out of line in questioning Davies’ Welsh heritage, but if Davies has campaigned against language education, that actually puts the whole thing in some perspective. When I was listening to them arguing fiercely about the “right to learn Welsh”, all I kept thinking was that Welsh kids learn it anyway up to 16 and 20%-ish learn primarily in Welsh- couldn’t understand what they were actually arguing over given that. If Davies has campaigned against it, that is perhaps a different matter.
      - treborc1
        
        And yet the reactionary party in Wales is Labour, the party you claim to canvass for.
        
        Funny old world
- JoeDM
  
  Nationalist extremists are nationalist extremists .
Tom

To be fair, she was rather out of order. If he identifies as Welsh and has lived there for decades, he is Welsh.
- Mike
  
  Agreed. Got sick of Welsh nationalists thinking ‘kick out all the English’ was a viable political strategy when out campaigning for Labour recently.
  - treborc1
    
    Rubbish, in all my life in Wales I’m yet to see anyone say kick anyone out.
    - Mike
      
      Maybe knock some more doors then?
      - treborc1
        
        I would not bother mate with your attitude
      - Mike
        
        Well then you won’t meet the nationalists who say it then… Lol. ‘I’ve never met’ is not an argument, it’s an admission of ignorance.
      - treborc1
        
        Or of course people can see right through your ignorance on wales.
      - Mike
        
        So are you trying to justify ‘kick them all out’ sentiments or not? I can assure you they exist, from long hours campaigning in Wales for years, for general election, Assembly election, council elections and the Yes for Wales referendum and I have heard this far more than you’d think.
      - treborc1
        
        The thought of you knocking on doors is a bit of laugh and for labour.
      - Mike
        
        None of your posts have any content at all, this is just tiresome. Keep sticking your fingers in your ears pretending that bigotry can be justified if it’s against the English and you’ll remain the irrelevance that Welsh nationalists are. The party of Wales with less supporters in Wales than the Tories = LOL.
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        Again, cherry picked views on the world. Yes, there are some extreme views in Wales, but your assertion is akin to suggesting that Tory politics is to the right, so are BNP views, ergo they are all the same – its just loud noise with no substance.
        
        Same goes for your Plaid analysis – outdated. Council elections put Plaid back into second place in Wales, ahead of a Tory party suffering once more in Wales.
      - Mike
        
        Except that people here are trying to justify anti-English bigotry, and acting as apologists for anti-semitism. These attitudes are clear from this comments section and this video.
      - postageincluded
        
        Wheeee!!!
Teresa McDonnell

Have no time for David Davis, but that woman was something else. Living on Shropshire side of Welsh border we are very aware of Welshification of public services. At one point NHS staf f were being told they had to be able to speak Welsh in the NW – then they had to recruit foreign doctors who’s first language wasn’t English as couldn’t get local docs- they changed their attitute then!
- http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
  
  You know full well that that has nothing to do with language, Welsh or otherwise. Square peg, round hole argument.
AnotherOldBoy

It is refreshing to hear a politician who is not prepared to put up with a load of rubbish from a bigoted idiot. Much better than being polite to her face and then calling her a bigot when you think you are off air.
- JoeDM
  
  Its a pity more politicians aren’t that direct with the public on radio phone-in programmes.
treborc1

Jesus it must be a slow day on politics.
- Seymorebooks
  
  don’t worry about any of it, wales will be a different country soon once we get a true multicultural population and once we then start out breeding the native welsh they will be the minority.
  - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
    
    Joke or not, I think the phrase ‘there you have it’ is more than applicable.
  - treborc1
    
    os byddwch yn dweud hynny
http://profiles.google.com/roger.f.mccarthy Roger McCarthy

Given that there are 4 Tory MPs called Davies/Davis, two of whom sit for Welsh seats a note as to which one is involved would be helpful – I’d guess its probably David Davies (Monmouth) and not his more famous near-namesake who sits for a Yorkshire seat.

Interesting illustration of how tone is everything.

In a transcript she might sound almost reasonable – recorded she is clearly an ignorant bigot of the first order and his ‘why don’t you go off and join the BNP’ rejoinder actually makes sense.

(And Nick Griffin lives in Welshpool and the BNP are actually very keen on the linguistic/cultural element of Welsh Nationalism – so its not quite as outlandish a statement as it appears).
- http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
  
  Yep, it’s the Monmouth MP. Again, put in context, Davies argued for the abolishing of compulsory Welsh in south-eat Wales schools several years ago, hence a lot of the animosity coming out of this interview. Agree/Disagree, this just provides context.
  - Bill Lockhart
    
    Compulsory Welsh in schools in Cardiff and Swansea is about as sensible and appropriate as compulsory Gaelic woud be in East Kilbride or Govan. Bloody stupid in other words.
    - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
      
      Why exactly? Numbers of Welsh speakers in those areas in particular has been consistently on the rise. Certainly makes more sense than compulsory French or Spanish. From an education point of view, any second language is beneficial in terms of the impact on learners abilities, does it not make imminent sense for that language to reflect the nation of origin/location? But good to know you have such a rational argument to put forward.
      - Bill Lockhart
        
        The employment/balance of trade benefits of Welsh are zero. French and/or Spanish might actually do the person and the country some good.
        As I said, Welsh reflects the origins of a native Cardiffian about as much as Gaelic does a Glaswegian- ie not at all. There is no more “rationality” in forcing English-speaking kids from English-speaking areas in Wales to learn the useless foreign language of Welsh than there would be in forcing kids in Hastings to learn Anglo-Saxon – other than to “put them in touch with their roots”, of course.
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        Apart form the whole ‘being able to speak Welsh is increasingly attractive to employers’ bit.
        
        However, you seem completely devoid of any sensible comment on the actual value of second languages, it being rooted in the strengthening of transferable skills in the learner, preferring to fixate on the ‘possible’ use of it in an international economic environment. ‘Might do’ some good is the strength of your argument, you’ll need to do better than that.
        
        You might want to try visiting Cardiff with an open ear by the way, the volume of Welsh being used there by people who work and live there has sky rocketed in recent years – your observations are based on little more than armchair sensationalism.
      - Bill Lockhart
        
        Since Welsh is demonstrably useless in an international context, I rather think the discussion of the relative merits of Welsh, French and Spanish in economic terms is over before it has started- unless there are any big export contracts to Patagonia coming up. The educational benefits of learning a second language are beyond doubt: those benefits would be greatly enhanced by learning a more useful language than Welsh, particularly as it is grammatically distant from other languages.
        
        “Businesses and language experts in Wales are backing calls for more young people to learn foreign languages. Research shows that Welsh firms could increase sales by 44.5% if they recruited more staff with languages skills.” http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business-in-wales/business-news/2010/12/02/languages-needed-to-boost-exports-91466-27752593/#ixzz1wRZLmqln
        
        The fact that a few Plaid students insist on publically parading their recently-acquired synthetic “Welshness” proves nothing whatsoever about the linguistic facts of life in Cardiff. It is blindingly obvious that the debate is controlled by nationalists who wish to force bilingualism onto Welsh people whther they want it or not- the enforcement being couched in the weasel words of “providing opportunity”.
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        So, you accept the educational merits of a second language, yet reject the use of Welsh. You would enforce an arbitrary selection of French or Spanish, even though said pupil may have no interest in working in an area that uses those languages, potentially leaving them with a ‘useless’ language.
        
        The learning of Welsh provides the language skills that can then be used in the choice of a relevant language to their chosen career, while grounding them in the cultural heritage of their nation of birth/home. Cultural benefits, educational & linguistic benefits and of course economic benefits given the emphasis on the use of Welsh in Wales today.
        
        Your argument would be strengthened by the inclusion of the Welsh language, rather than it’s rejection, but your views seem as entrenched and irrational as the initial woman in question. Two extremes of one argument on display, both as useless as each other. Bravo, keep banging heads.
      - Bill Lockhart
        
        So you agree that learning Welsh is, at best, a precursor for learning a useful foreign language. Perhaps the best way to find out what students and parents really want is to offer Welsh in S.Wales as an option amongst other languages- but of course that won’t happen because the obvious likely outcome doesn’t suit the professional Nats.
        The “cultural heritage” angle is hilarious – presumably you’ll be demanding compulsory Anglo-Saxon for Pakistani kids in Wolverhampton next, to “ground them” in the “cultural heritage of their nation of birth/home”.
        The “emphasis on the use of Welsh” is driven solely by the scandalous political insistence on Welsh as a pre-requisite for public-sector employment. This merely demonstrates the gulf between the public sector and the real world, and nothing about actual productive economics whatsoever.
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        No, I do not agree with it being ‘at best’ a precursor. I am illustrating its versatility, speaking it in the first place is beneficial. The same argument could be made of French, that ‘at best’ it allows for the ease of learning other languages – however, it would not be culturally relevant, an essential component for developing interest and enthusiasm in a subject matter.
        
        The cultural argument is essential. If you remove it, then we may as well ditch art, indeed any of the performance arts, english literature, modern languages generally in favor of Cantonese, because of course, none of these things have any benefit for society now do they.
        
        You need to pull your head out of the science closet where everything is measured in numbers, and try and gain for an appreciation for how human beings grow and interact…but then I’m going to wager your interactions with people is pretty superficial, given your great disdain for cultural activities.
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        What’s most impressive is how easily you can reject the use of the Welsh language as some manner of Plaid based protest. If you want a bigoted view point in all this, look no further than such glib remarks offered above.
    - JoeDM
      
      Exactly. I am originally from south-east Wales and have family in there and they all think that the compulsory Welsh is an utter waste of time.
http://twitter.com/UseTheLeftWing Max Bell

Having listened to the actual interview – the MP was spot on in telling the woman where to jump…
alex

Don’t like david davis much, but i am amazed he managed to keep the cool he did. How can you have a reasonable discussion with someone who shouts over you all the time?

And never mind the fact that she is demanding everyone should speak welsh in wales and she can’t herself, totally barking. I presume she feels she should leave Wales then? Totally totally barking.
Mr Chippy

I agree with the Tory. I am a Sarf Londoner. I moved to North Wales through romance about 5 years ago. Wales is officially a bilingual country. That does not mean every citizen has to speak both languages only one. Labour as a UK government and in the Welsh Assembly have an excellent record in promoting the Welsh language. No child is denied their birthright as the language is a compulsory subject in Welsh schools. The assertion that just because someone is English questions the legitimacy of their point of view on the issue is reactionary claptrap. Going back to the party I used to find the same sentiment was often behind selection contests in Scottish and Welsh seats. Funny this ‘principle’ did not effect the Scottish and Welsh seeking selection in English seats. When I last counted about 15 years ago there was at least 5o celts in English seats but only one English person in a Scottish seat. In my period in Wales I have never experienced the venom given out to Davies. On the contrary I have been made very welcome.
- http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
  
  Again, it should be clarified that the caller is talking about their experiences growing up, rather than the child. Compulsory Welsh is a relatively new entity in Wales, only coming through the school system in the last 15-20 years. It is in this respect that the caller is angry at the lack of school based opportunities to learn the language, rather than a contemporary setting.
Rob

To be fair I agree with the Tory on this
JoeDM

There is nothing worse than my racist bigoted extremist nationalist compatriots.

Well done this MP !!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://twitter.com/sprogglie Sprogglechops

Hmmm … According to her definition Lloyd George wasn’t a Welshman ….
- Ann
  
  Neither then was Saunders Lewis, who was born in England!! So David Davis, cannot be Welsh as he was born in England but speaks welsh fluently???
  
  What a silly, publicity seeking, woman. If she is 65 and was brought up in the Rhondda Valley, she would have had welsh lessons. All my family and friends of similar ages did!
  - treborc1
    
    hwy erioed ddysg
http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales

Contrary to popular opinion here, you are not addressing a Plaid voter, most eye commentators pitch for a Labour vote generally – but if these comments are representative of the party core, then I think many in Wales would reassess this position. While the woman in question is clearly overacting, overly passionate and need of stepping back and assessing the current Welsh language climate in Wales today, the anti-Welsh vitriol that has been poured out on these pages should make many of you ashamed. The Welsh language has been painted as ‘evil’ by some here, incredible. She may have been ‘out of order’, he may have been ‘rude’, but for the real right wingers on offer, leaf through the comments here, if this is the Labour party, it is a very alien place to be for those involved in the Welsh political community. Thank goodness for clear red water.
- Bill Lockhart
  
  ”The Welsh language has been painted as ‘evil’ by some here, incredible”
  
  Yes, literally incredible in this case. No one has made any such assertion. The forcing of Welsh upon pupils who have no cultural connection with the language and do not wish one has nothing to do with the language itself, it is a consequence of nationalist politicians enforcing nationalist ends. Compulsion in the matter of linguistics is normally a sign of intolerance and extremism, both clearly present in Plaid Cymru’s documented history.
  When you can’t handle someone’s argument, make up what they might have said and respond to that. Called a “strawman”, I believe.
  - Mr Chippy
    
    Bill, I think you are overreacting. There are many subjects which pupils may prefer not to do. I think it is important in Wales to promote Welsh language and culture. In Wales there are English (the vast majority) and Welsh medium schools. Parents choose where they send their children to learn and through what medium. I work for a Union. In the public bodies I deal with I speak English even in largely Welsh speaking areas. When I deal with a Welsh medium employer I am grateful for the concessions they make – either providing translation facilities or doing the business in English. Public sector workers are not required to speak Welsh except in Welsh speaking areas. As Welsh speakers are required to speak English in English speaking areas. It really is not a problem. The fact that the English language is dominant in Wales is a legacy of our rule (read the history books). We cannot turn back the clock but at least we can take some positive action which Labour has been doing. Colin
    - Bill Lockhart
      
      Hi Colin, that’s dodging the issue, isn’t it? Parents in English-speaking areas have *no* choice over whether their children learn Welsh: it is compulsory. Their children would be better off studying Spanish or Mandarin. Core compulsory subjects are supposed to be those in which a lack of a grounding deems a child not ready to join society: to claim that this is true of Welsh in areas which have not been Welsh-speaking for 300 years is politically-correct nonsense.
      - Draig
        
        @47fda723668e5975375372951e4c7f06:disqus
        You seem to have a big problem with Welsh and Welsh people. Why?
      - Bill Lockhart
        
        You are wrong. I have a problem with neither Welsh people (the great majority of whom are native English speakers) nor the Welsh language. Where a majority people wish to learn and use Welsh they should be afforded the opportunity to do so, just as Gaelic should be (and is) available in the Hebrides. I see, however, no reason why children in non-Welsh-speaking areas should be forced to learn Welsh, any more than kids in Govan should be forced to learn Gaelic. Perhaps you do.
      - Draig
        
        Well this is the language of the country, coexisting with English. I don’t see why it shouldn’t be compulsory. In the past Welsh has almost been stamped out by directives from Whitehall. there was the infamous ‘welsh not’ at school used years ago, where a child had to wear a placard in school stating that they spoke Welsh, before being compulsorily punished at the end of class by being beaten. The areas of which you speak where welsh ‘hasn’t been spoken for 300 years’ is because of such directives in the past, so much so that by the early 1970′s reports were such that the language was in danger of dying out, as did Cornish. Indeed many Welsh dialects (such as Pembrokeshier Welsh, which was similar to Breton) have already died out.
        
        I think it is important to keep the language alive, just as Basque is spoken in Spain and southern France, just as Native American languages are kept alive in the USA. It is part of our culture and our history. I don’t see why bilingualism is such a sin. It functions in many countries throughout the world, and I can never see Welsh superceding English.
        
        BTW, I have never voted Plaid Cymru.
      - Bill Lockhart
        
        ” I don’t see why it shouldn’t be compulsory”
        
        That is a familiar Leftist position on many matters. Banning and compelling are the reflex responses of self-appointed arbiters throughout history.
      - Bill Lockhart
        
        ” I don’t see why it shouldn’t be compulsory”
        
        That is a familiar Leftist position on many matters. Banning and compelling are the reflex responses of self-appointed arbiters throughout history.
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        Yet you argue for the banning of Welsh as a staple of the curriculum. Dress it up in all the equal opportunity garb you like, at its heart, this is your argument.
      - Bill Lockhart
        
        Please pay attention. I believe Welsh should be available to all who *want* it. You want it to be forced on every child in Wales whether their parents want it or not. You take to yourself the right to choose for them. So don’t talk about opportunity or freedom to choose, because you don’t believe in them.
        
        Explain again why compulsory Welsh for English speakers in Cardiff is good but compulsory Gaelic for English speakers in Govan isn’t? Oh, sorry, you can’t.
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        So you are not speaking on behalf of all children in Wales now are you? I’m sure the children will, for a whole host of compulsory subjects, tell you where to shove them, so lets ditch all subjects that the ‘children’ want rid of shall we…?
        
        Of course, you miss the irony, that not so long ago, Welsh children were indeed told that Welsh was no good for them, had it removed from schools, which led to its marginalization today. What you argue against, is the product of what you argue for.
      - Draig
        
        I take it you live in England. English is taught to all children in England regardless of their ethnic background, regardless of whether their parents want it or not. Why not Welsh in Wales?
        
        You write’ That is a familiar Leftist position on many matters. Banning and
        compelling are the reflex responses of self-appointed arbiters
        throughout history.’
        
        I think this comment applies more to Whitehall directives in the past, as history will bear me out here, rather than teaching Welsh language in schools in Wales today.
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        Of course, you ignore the impacts of generations of systemic undermining of the Welsh language, which is at the heart of what that woman was ranting about in the first place. Her anger was directed at the historical undermining of the Welsh language. It’s decline was constructed, not organic, as you seem to perceive. It was not abandoned by choice, but lost by force. To say it should not be compulsory because it is not in the majority, is to ignore all the reasons why it fell into the minority in the first place. But you have already stressed that history and culture have no place in your rationale, so these points will no doubt fall on your consistently deaf ears.
      - Bill Lockhart
        
        But the culture and history upon which you harp are not the culture or history of the people upon whom you wish to impose instruction inWelsh- can’t you see that? The decline of the Welsh language is not their fault. They *choose* not to learn or speak Welsh- and that is *none of your business*
        
        Good luck, logically, with enforcing compulsory lessons in Lenape in Manhattan schools, and presumably Erse in Belfast. You might be able to reverse tectonic plate shifts as well.
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        If you can only support your argument by ambling beyond Wales, then you should see the limitations of your own cyclical shambling defence.
      - Draig
        
        I think this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
      - Mr Chippy
        
        Lets us on this occassion agree to differ.
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        Again, your history is amazingly faulty. Knock a couple of hundred years off of your timescale and you might have the beginnings of an argument, as it is, it remains irrational anger, and little more.
  - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
    
    Entertaining you remain Billiam, especially as you choose to deliberately overlook the comment above stating the evil nature of the current situation (it’s in there if look). At the same time as ignoring such recent contributions, you seem intent on holding the Welsh language, in association to Plaid Cymru, accountable for the views of man long dead in the ground. Your rationale remains amusingly backwards.
    - Bill Lockhart
      
      And yet you favour compelling children to learn a language they neither want nor need in order to expiate the supposed colonising sins of their supposed “forefathers”. Logic that selective isn’t really logic.
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        Did you get the job as Children’s Commissioner for Wales? You must have done seeing how you are so confident speaking on their behalf. I mean, all those parents rushing to get their children into Welsh medium schools must all be wrong right?
        
        Logic that ignores evidence is, well, stupidity, and yours continues to bring a smile Bill.
      - Bill Lockhart
        
        407 children taking Welsh Second Language A-Level. That’s what happens when you let people choose- they choose something else. And Welsh schools have proportionately fewer entrants for modern foreign languages than do English schools, so that scuttle the language-skills pump-priming justification.
        Sorry to bring facts into your nationalist fantasies.
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        I’m not entirely sure what point you are trying to make? Lets take your second point first – just because someone does not do something, is no indication of their ability to do it. The skills are in place, as you suggest, the choice is there, it’s simply not taken. There is no evidence which points against its benefits long term for learners in your example, just rash finger pointing.
        
        As for your A-level numbers, again, what point are you trying to make? That ‘not many take it now so whats the point’ kind of an argument yes? Participation in Welsh medium schools in increasing by roughly 100 children a year, and would be much higher if supply could keep up with demand. The numbers involved in Welsh Bac, GCSE and A-level Welsh is naturally increasing, and will continue to do so over time as participation numbers increase with an expansion of Welsh medium schools – an expansion that is occurring on the back of parent demand.
        
        For ‘poor’ participation numbers, well heck, maths was struggling a few years ago in terms of numbers, that’s surely all the evidence that ‘you’ need to demand the compulsory education of maths be removed from schools.
        
        Sorry to bring evidence to your xenophobic fantasies – try and develop an argument which goes beyond plucking stats out of the air and letting them land wherever, you might have a point.
      - http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZPXYLRVP4XOIGGDJWAL6HUO7U4 David
        
        If the language is flourishing in such a way as you describe, why is there a need to introduce additional legislation to assist it?
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        The language is growing, rather than flourishing (not my words) in many areas. There is a proven demand for more Welsh language schooling options (which Bill conveniently has his head in the sand over).
        
        Why the need for assistance? Because the resource is fragile (Bill, before you chip in, fragile does not equate to irrelevant, which I presume would be your understanding of the word). We have had around 15, maybe 20 years, of provisions for Welsh language education in Welsh schools, on the back of some 100 years of systematic forced removal of Welsh from schools. Two decades of legislative assistance does not reverse a century of systematic legislative deconstruction, it is a process.
      - http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZPXYLRVP4XOIGGDJWAL6HUO7U4 David
        
        If such legislation could be shown to reduce the number or quality of doctors and nurses available, would you still support it?
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        Wow, bravo for introducing the most pointless hypothetical element of this debate possible. How about this, if compulsory Welsh language education could be shown to save the lives of sick orphans, would you still oppose it?
      - http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZPXYLRVP4XOIGGDJWAL6HUO7U4 David
        
        I neither oppose nor support the legislation, but as far as I am aware this is a major concern for some, as I think you must be aware. It is therefore interesting to me that you choose not to engage on this issue.
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        See below.
      - Draig
        
        Forgive me here, but I cannot see any rationale behind your comment at all.
      - http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZPXYLRVP4XOIGGDJWAL6HUO7U4 David
        
        Perhaps you did not listen to the interview above?
      - Bill Lockhart
        
        The point, which I would have thought self-explanatory but apparently isn’t, is that compulsory Welsh either puts children off learning other languages or takes up the lesson time which could otherwise be used to teach foreign languages. Your assertion that compulsory Welsh helps children learn other languages is disproved by the simple fact that they don’t.
        
        The point about A-level numbers, again rather obviously I would have thought, is that A-levels demonstrate the first opportunity for choice by the pupils. As soon as English-speakers can drop Welsh , they do. Apart from 407, some of whom will be less-able native Welsh speakers trying to bump their grades up. So as social engineering, compulsory Welsh for English speakers is a proven failure. The numbers don’t lie.
      - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
        
        Brilliantly typical, you are dismissing those taking the Welsh A-level as grade boosters, presumably doing it, why, because they are good at it?
        
        And then you argue that Welsh does not help in the learning of other languages because some people don’t take other languages as an option. That proves nothing. It’s like saying space travel is impossible because I won’t be doing it this afternoon.
        
        Numbers cannot lie, interpretations however can be as biased an one eyed as you are inclined to make them, which you are doing a wonderful job of.
      - Draig
        
        I can speak English and Welsh, but I took neither subject for A level. How is the study of languages to A level status indicative of the popularity of the language?
      - Slakah
        
        The burden of proof should surely rest on your shoulders, I have yet to see any reason to believe why in modern and diverse cities such as Swansea and Cardiff should force the welsh language on a population of which has very little in common linguistically with the North and West of Wales. I hate to use anecdotal evidence, but I have friends and family from Swansea who have gone through the compulsory Welsh language course and have all considered it a waste of time (something which should be avoided in a compulsory course). Many of the young in Cardiff and Swansea (and many other areas) are much more likely to travel to Bristol than their neighbours in the North. Let majority english speaking welsh districts decide what languages would be most beneficial for their young.
      - Draig
        
        I know countless young people in both Swansea and Cardiff who speak Welsh. In every major city and town in Wales the signs, correspondence in the public sector and a host of other aspects of life in Wales is bilingual. So what if some young people travel occasionally to Bristol? What relevance does this point have?
        
        If I went to live in Pakistan, China, Bangladesh or any other country for that matter I would make an effort to learn the indigenous language there, and I wouldn’t complain either about my children learning it.
        
        following the logic of some of the arguments put forward here, then we should complain about English being taught in England to children from different ethnic minorities. Isn’t this too, the imposition of one (more powerful) culture upon another?
      - Slakah
        
        If I went to live in Pakistan, China, Bangladesh or any other country for that matter I would make an effort to learn the indigenous language there
        So are you saying a non english speaking person moving to Wales would learn Welsh first?
        
        then we should complain about English being taught in England to children from different ethnic minorities. Isn’t this too, the imposition of one (more powerful) culture upon another?
        
        Welsh isn’t majority spoken in Wales ( I think it’s currently at ~300k 10% of the population of Wales). I’m fine with compulsory Welsh in Welsh majority areas, but Wales is a European country and forcing Welsh on people is wrong. What if a Welsh student wished to learn German but was unable to due to lack of time/reasources due to the compulsory Welsh.
        
        Too reiterate I’m not against kids learning Welsh, I’m against it being forced down their throat by Welsh nationalists possibly against their will, as it could certainly restrict resources from other subjects due to it’s compulsory nature.
      - treborc1
        
        God help us.
- AnotherOldBoy
  
  “The Welsh character is an interesting study,” said Dr. Fagan. “I have often considered writing a little monograph on the subject, but I was afraid it might make me unpopular in the village. The ignorant speak of them as Celts, which is of course wholly erroneous. They are of pure Iberian stock– the aboriginal inhabitants of Europe who survive only in Portugal and the Basque district. Celts readily intermarry with their neighbours and absorb them. From the earliest times the Welsh have been looked upon as an unclean people. It is thus that they have preserved their racial integrity. Their sons and daughters rarely mate with human-kind except their own blood relations. In Wales there was no need for legislation to prevent the conquering people intermarrying with the conquered. In Ireland that was necessary, for there intermarriage was a political matter. In Wales it was moral. I hope, by the way, you have no Welsh blood?”
  “None whatever,” said Paul.
  “I was sure you had not, but one cannot be too careful. I once spoke of this subject to the sixth form and learned later that one of them had a Welsh grandmother. I am afraid it hurt his feelings terribly, poor little chap. She came from Pembrokeshire, too, which is of course quite a different matter. I often think,” he continued, “that we can trace almost all the disasters of English history to the influence of Wales. Think of Edward of Carnarvon, the first Prince of Wales, a perverse life, Pennyfeather, and an unseemly death, then the Tudors and the dissolution of the Church, then Lloyd George, the temperance movement, Nonconformity and lust stalking hand in hand through the country, wasting and ravaging. But perhaps you think I exaggerate? I have a certain rhetorical tendency, I admit.”
  “No, no,” said Paul.
  “The Welsh,” said the Doctor, “are the only nation in the world that has produced no graphic or plastic art, no architecture, no drama. They just sing,” he said with disgust, “sing and blow down wind instruments of plated silver….”
Tonywoodward5

Why did the angry lady feel that DD should leave Wales? He appears to contribute to the Welsh economy and he is not an elderly person or a disabled person who will be a drain on Welsh resources,( remember Seimon Glyn’s view that old, non Welsh speakers settling in his bit of Wales were as welcome as foot and mouth?) DD also appears to have some command of the language, unlike the poor woman herself. Was it because DD was not born in Wales? Welsh Nationalist Saunders Lewis was a nazi sympathiser who drank to the success of Mussolini and Franco, and wrote disgraceful tracts about Jews; perhaps the lady is a follower of dear old Saunders. Helen Mary Jones was not born in Wales either, perhaps the lady feels that Helen Mary should go home too along with Leanne Wood’s parents. Get rid of these people to England, along with the kids who fail in Welsh medium schools, kick out the English and the learning disabled They are a drain on our vibrant economy. Strange that the lady has only just considered, aged 65 learning the language here forbears abandoned, and feels that that her advanced age is a good reason not to learn it.Lets hope her grandaughter has no problems and is able to find employment at the Assembly or in Welsh medium schools. I however am one Welsh business owner who has had enough and is going voluntarily, taking my money and my volunteering in the community with me, to England, where I hope nobody will tell me to’ go home’.
- Draig
  
  You get racists everywhere, but to generalise to a whole nation as you are doing in your tirade is totally absurd. I have been racially abused by English people in the past, been called a ‘f**king Welsh b*stard’ and other such insults, along with sheep f***er and the rest of them. But such idiots I know are not representative of English people as a whole.
  
  I have many English relatives and my grandfather was an Englishman, and personally speaking I have never voted Plaid, nor did I vote in favour of the Welsh Assembly either, but I feel that the language should be allowed to survive, it is one of the oldest languages in Europe and was spoken before England even existed, and this can be achieved in part by compulsory education of Welsh in schools in Wales, this is to counteract centuries of attempts by Whitehall of linguistic genocide towards Welsh.
  
  BTW, perhaps I should list various prominent Englishmen and political figures (such as Halifax, Edward Windsor and a host of others) who supported Hitler during WW2. What’s next? That the Welsh fought for the Nazis during WW2? Demonising your opponent in a debate by linking their ideas in some way, shape or form with Hitler and the Nazis is a decades-established method of shouting people down.
  - Ann
    
    My son, as he from Bridgend, is regularly called a sheep sh***** by Cardiff people. I accept that not all Cardiff people are like that, but it does show that divisions in Wales still exist – North South, Valley City, Welsh speaking Non Wesh speaking.
    
    We should concentrate on our similarities not our differences!
Bill Lockhart

replying to EyeOnWales below, these stupid shrinking boxes…

You wrote “Brilliantly typical, you are dismissing those taking the Welsh A-level
as grade boosters, presumably doing it, why, because they are good at
it? ”

You miss the point entirely. Many of them are good at Welsh as a second language becuase it is, er, their *first* language.There is a recognised, documented practice of children who have been raised speaking Welsh as their first language being entered for Welsh Second Language examinations in order to improve their and their schools’ grades. Cheating, in other words. And, before you start, it’s not in my imagination.

“Some schools are “playing the system” by unfairly entering Welsh-speaking
candidates for the easier GCSEs designed for second-language pupils. A team of
academics say schools which enter strong Welsh speakers for the simpler paper
are placing other candidates at a disadvantage.
Consultants Llais y Lli were asked to investigate moves away from first to
second-language Welsh in schools between key stages 2 and 3 by ACCAC, the Welsh
qualifications, curriculum and assessment authority for Wales.

They found a “substantial” 22 per cent shift from first to second-language
Welsh over a four-year period – particularly in traditional Welsh
strongholds.”

http://www.tes.co.uk/teaching-resource/Welsh-GCSEs-ploy-unfair-2169963/

A scam, in other words.
- http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
  
  Wow, some high quality 7 year old data there to illustrate your point. If you are basing your argument around GCSE data manipulation then you may as well throw every compulsory and optional subject out of the window.
  
  However, in your own arguments you have dismissed the possibility of Welsh being a first language for, well, anyone in Wales, thus everyone considering a qualification in Welsh must surely be taking it as a second language, otherwise two-thirds of every other assertion you have made here is in direct conflict with your other statements…impressive.
  - Bill Lockhart
    
    That’s the second time you have invented an argument no-one has made. I’m sorry I mistook you for someone who wished to debate in good faith. You’re just a chippy anonymous troll. Bye now.
    - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
      
      Run if you like, or stand and face up to the fact that the core sentiment of your rejection of compulsory Welsh, is that the demand does not exist due to the lack of speakers, it is the rationale upon which your gibberings have been based. In rejecting that sentiment, you then make the case for the instances where Welsh is in demand being fallacious because those taking the qualifications can speak it anyway, which of course only serves to deconstruct your initial argument. You are pulling threads from anywhere to make a multi-coloured assortment of arguments, none of which make sense when put together.
      
      Your own obsessional drive with fighting against compulsory Welsh education has left you with a fragmented argument that you are now finding impossible to defend.
      
      As for your ‘troll’ accusation, that, ‘Bill’, is the last resort of the man on his knees. Your arguments have been whittled down to xenophobic finger pointing, and you do not like it, so you fall back on further finger pointing and name calling for want of anything substantial to offer in return. Disappointing Bill, very disappointing.
http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales

In response to David and his accusation of failing to engage with the debate – offering hypothetical ‘it would be money better spent elsewhere’ arguments is not engaging with the debate, it’s the laying down of poorly conceptualized argumentative traps. However, as everyone can see what a daft idea it is, you can have your answer to the impossible question of ’If such legislation could be shown to reduce the number or quality of doctors and nurses available, would you still support it?’: the answer would be yes, because it is indeed important for many people, far more so than a whole host of things that money is frittered away on in Wales/Britain (these next four days being a good starting point). This is a country beset by spending waste, and you want to get more doctors and nurses by cutting Welsh? It’s a daft hypothetical because the maths do not add up.

In which case, I challenge you to now engage with the debate. If compulsory education through the medium of Welsh could be shown to save the lives of children, would you oppose it? It’s as sensible as your glib question, to an important topic, why are you not engaging with it?
- http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZPXYLRVP4XOIGGDJWAL6HUO7U4 David
  
  What a remarkable and unseemly rant.
  Firstly some background: I am not Welsh, do not speak Welsh, and have no strong opinion on how the Welsh choose to conduct their affairs. Perhaps you should re-read my posts and explain where I express a view?Your accusations of hypocracy, or any assumption that I oppose any moves by the Welsh assembly to preserve the Welsh language are so far off the mark as to almost make the rest of your diatribe seem rather bizarre to me.
  But now to your post.
  
  Firstly let’s deal with your canard about saving children: as I understand it children are currently taught Welsh in schools, and there is no suggestion to reverse this legislation. So if it saves lives it is already doing so. Can we move on?
  
  Secondly let’s look at the “glib” point about doctors and nurses: there is, I understand, debate about the making compulsory for all public servants to speak Welsh. This would include doctors and nurses. Now I do not know what proportion of Welsh doctors are trained in Wales, but knowing that there are rather more medical students trained in England and Wales together than just Wales. My question, therefore, is around the “what if” question that there turn out not to be enough to cover Welsh needs: if you need extra doctors, will you make exceptions if they do not, or refuse, to speak Welsh? Would hospitals be forced to fill surgical posts with Welsh-speaking generalists over non-Welsh speaking specialists?
  
  A more reasonable response to the question than your reactionary aggression might perhaps have been “we do not think this will be a problem because of a) b) and c) reasons”. Perhaps there is to be a grandfathering scheme, or exceptions for key skill tasks? This would be debate, rather than posturing.
  
  However, since you have said that “yes, because it is indeed important for many people, far more so than a whole host of things”, i.e. that you would support such an effect, I can only assume that either you do not believe the situation is likely to occur or that their implications do not warrant my concern. If that is the case, perhaps you can illuminate me as to your thinking?
  - http://eye-on-wales.com/ EyeOnWales
    
    Oops, forgot about this pointless discussion with the haters. Still, best not leave things uncontested. Time is of the essence so lets deal with you quickly.
    
    1. No accusations of hypocrisy, criticisms leveled at daft ‘hypotheticals’…perhaps you should read the responses?
    
    2. The point on saving lives was a mockery of your hypothetical argument, though seemingly you are not up to speed on sarcasm, so that largely deals with that.
    
    3. Your ‘what if’ debate will be covered by the fact that this policy is being debated. We have nothing solid on the proposals so far, so again, your argument is little more than hot air and hypotheticals, again, read ‘hypothetical’.
    
    4. Again, what I stressed is that you are moving the debate on far and beyond the central tenant of the argument. Why do you wish to discuss the position of compulsory Welsh speaking in the NHS in Wales, when we are talking about the merits or lack thereof in its application in schooling. My response to you was that you have failed to engage with the debate, by dropping in a completely different debate, based on, that word again, read carefully, hypotheticals.
    
    To actually deal with your response (just so you feel like you are being listened to), frankly I feel it short sighted and impractical to consider making every single position compulsory Welsh, certainly for the next 20 years or so at least. Welsh language use is on the uptake, regardless of the blinkered evidence ignoring views of some on here. Some should, yes, all, no. However, and listen closely language haters, that has nothing to do with its use in schools. It is a separate debate, and irrelevant to where we started.
    
    Do feel welcome to getting back to the point at hand.
  - Ann
    
    David. You will not find a balanced and fair point of view on this site. “If you are not toally with us, you are against us” is the normal type of response!!!
    
    Certainly, there is no real discussion – just fingers in ears type of debate. Read all the posts and see what I mean.
    - treborc1
      
      And your what different then the rest I doubt it.
Nouveau Liberal

Such anti-English sentiment is, regrettably, prevalent in both a casual and more militant sense in Wales. As a citizen of Wales who’s family hails from both England and Wales, I am aware of the extent to which such jingoistic, ill-considered attacks on the English people have become ingrained. Whilst the caller appeared to deny that she was anti-English, her instinctive reaction to David Davies’ admission that he was English was evidently hateful, and tells you all you need to know about her motivations in this instance.

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