Eight reasons why Labour should think twice about predistribution

September 8, 2012 7:30 am

Like many, I read Ed Miliband’s New Statesman interview with interest. Some parts of it pleased me greatly, like the seeming acceptance of not having money to spend. And the corollary to that, which is that we could not redistribute wealth which, well, we didn’t have.

A sigh of relief was breathed, and I thought, “hey, this predistribution sounds like it could be interesting”. For a little, if slightly skeptical, while, I gave strong proponent, Labour Left’s Eoin Clarke, the benefit of the doubt.

So, leaving on one side for a minute the churlish thought, articulated by the good Stefan Stern, that it sounded a bit, well, wonkish – the philistine! – I set to reading. Now, a number of critics, such as Labour Uncut’s Atul Hatwal, have criticised it for its lack of definition, but I disagree: it was in defining it, for me, that it all went wrong.

And it was because it seemed to me that, in making the supposition that it was not vague think-tank stuff, predistribution demonstrated the opposite of what I had thought: a complete lack of acceptance that there is no money to spend. And what was worrying was not just the idea itself, but the thought process which Labour seems to be following.

Option one: assume there is no money as a given. Whatever we do needs to be at zero net cost to the Exchequer, or thereabouts. It’s not impossible to make eye-catching policy with this, but it’s hard, agreed.

Option two: ooh, that other one looks hard, let’s find a softer option. We assume there is money, but we just have to look for it. How about…hey!…if we had a way of getting money to “our” people (i.e. low-to-middle-income earners), which someone else would stump up for? I quote my learned colleague Hopi Sen on the subject of polling questions:

…a fine example of what I like to call “would you like a pony” polling, where the questions effectively amount to:

1. Would you like a pony?

2. Would you like someone else to pay for your pony?

It is not hard to get an impressively high level of assent to pony polling.

Indeed it is not. But we can get a nice approximation to pony polling internally, within the Labour commentariat, if we so choose. It is not difficult to get support for an idea when you say that the downside will fall on people we don’t like (i.e. corporations).

Okay, so how about this, in a more concrete form: we get the money from companies by limiting their profits, and by forcing wages up. Which seems to be the gist of what “predistribution” is all about, or as Ian Martin wryly observed, what we used to call a prices and incomes policy.

Hmm. When did we last have a prices and incomes policy? I’ll give you a clue: disco was in the charts, Jim Callaghan was Prime Minster, and the must-see film of the year was Grease. It was 1979.

Now, whenever you tinker with the market, you have to be very sure what you are doing. That’s not to say you shouldn’t regulate prices or incomes at all: the minimum wage is a prime example of a partial incomes policy, and something I heavily supported in 1997.

Why? Because I knew it was safe (indeed, the year before, I did my Masters’ dissertation on a seminal text about it, by the academic who went on to advise Labour on how to do it successfully). And because it was, frankly, an embarrassment that Britain was the only major developed country not to have protection for workers at the bottom end of the wage scale. Indeed, the fact that even that evil empire of unfettered capitalism, the United States, had had one since the 1930s, made the argument against indefensible.

Now, what are the downsides to a full prices and incomes policy?

One. It’s big. It goes much, much further than the minimum wage. In principle, you’re tinkering with the whole of the economy, not just at the margins. You need to be really, really sure what you’re doing. All sorts of things can happen: inflation, disinvestment, standard incentives twisted beyond recognition, and ultimately a potential falloff in growth and tax receipts from those incentive tweaks and resulting inefficiencies.

The removal of prices and incomes policies during the Thatcher years was also a brutal shock to Britain. In reverse, that is the scale of the change being proposed – revolution not evolution. Assuming the electorate ever allow you to try it, you get no second chances if it doesn’t work, and the impact of it not working, it goes without saying, could be a decade or two out of office.

In short, is it not a rather ambitious policy for any government to get to from where we are? Miliband wants nothing short of “to change the way the economy works”. It’s like taking a car engine apart to see how it works, and most likely finding the pieces don’t fit back together very well. Oops.

Two. It didn’t work very well last time it was done in Britain (Winter of Discontent, anyone?) which led to its being abolished and not reintroduced (apart from a brief flirtation during the Darling years, as a one-off to deal with the economic crisis). And further, the whole world is moving away from this model, not towards it. Continental Europe and Japan are pretty much the last places in the world you’ll find it. Much as you’ll find me pro-European on welfare and health services, its sclerotic employment practices are driving business eastwards at a rate of knots. And Japan, lest we forget, suffered a decade of stagnation in the 1990s from which it is still barely recovering.

Three. Economists, as the excellent Chris Dillow points out, “have traditionally hated the idea” of interfering with prices and incomes in this context, because it’s such a blunt instrument with nasty side-effects. As he says:

By all means cap prices as part of a remedy against monopoly or other market failure. But don’t think of it as clever redistribution.”

Four. This is Robin Hood politics, pure and simple. Labour needs to decide whether it is for equality of opportunity, with a sufficient safety net so that those at the bottom do not get trapped there, or for overall equality of outcome. Mostly, for the last twenty years at least, it has been the first. If we want to go with the second, fine, but we need to accept the result: we will ultimately need to try and get the British public used to borrowing more or paying more taxes as a long-term thing (i.e. not balancing the budget over the economic cycle), and that didn’t work out too well for Gordon Brown, did it?

Five. Is it implementable? The private sector usually find ways round these things. I suspect that, in practice, it would mostly only be practical to implement in the public sector, therefore making it even more expensive to employ there than in the private sector. It might even incentivise more privatisation, rather than less.

Six. Historically, a government’s political investment in an incomes policy makes it more likely they will be dragged into major wage disputes, something which hasn’t really been a feature of UK government for years. Oh, good.

Seven. The skills and productivity argument, ably summarised by Daniel Sage, here. Predistribution only works in a high-skill, high-productivity economy. First, you have to get there.

Eight. There is a final possibility: that the idea is merely a pre-conference sop to the unions and/or other supporters on the left, who may not accept that we cannot find the money, and therefore still want to spend it. That we have no intention of implementing this in more than a symbolic way, so it won’t hurt.

Aside from its inherent dishonesty, there is a practical danger with this approach, of promising things you know you cannot deliver – just ask François Hollande. You then find yourself in government, and are forced to disappoint everyone to whom you have sold a pony. Your popularity tanks. No, the only known way to create a sustainable, popular government programme is by the simple expedient of not promising things that you know you cannot deliver. Dull, I know.

To sum up: we should perhaps hope that predistribution is really just an anodyne buzzword. Because if it is not, in fact, and this is to be the cornerstone of our economic policy, then that is very worrying indeed. The comfortable poll lead we have built up looks suddenly rather precarious, because early indications are that we are headed for an economic manifesto from the last days of disco.

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  • http://vpcyn.wordpress.com/ Bolshy

    So … do nothing then, allow Tory policy dictate what (New) Labour can do?

    As an affront as it may be, people need to be able to spend money to keep an economy going, not simply pay for utilities and the odd mobile PAYG. A generation is about to be lost because there isn’t enough disposable income, both New Labour and Tories are to blame. BOTH followed the same policy.

    EdMil needs to grow a pair.

  • Feneon

    Unbelievably, Marchant tries to adduce economic evidence to his argument that is 8 years out of date, and in spite of the fact the situation is completely the reverse of what it was then. It’s typical of all these uber-blairites, wee see it it time and again from them, forcing the evidence to fit their preconceived opinions.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZPXYLRVP4XOIGGDJWAL6HUO7U4 David

    An excellent analysis, in the typically provocative style that I foresee will result in many feathers being spat out from certain quarters, with (for me) one glaring exception resulting, it appears, from an overzealous bit of cut-paste editing:

    For a little, if slightly skeptical, while, I gave strong proponent, Labour Left’s Eoin Clarke, the benefit of the doubt.

    To me the main point is number seven: I heard Chukka Umunna on the radio this morning, and got no additional detail about how he anticipates making the traverse from our current society (fairly high skill and high tech) to the (more?) high skill, high tech society he imagines, except over 30 years or so…

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001102865655 John Ruddy

    And all your arguments were used against the minimum wage in 1999.

    And we all know how that turned out, dont we?

    • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

      Yeah but the minimum wage is sent indepedently by economists because of supply and demand so it has got to be measured. That is why a living wage should not be statutory but encouraged through the tax system and means of public procurement.

      • ReefKnot

        If you don’t tax people on minimum wage, hey presto – they pretty much take home the living wage. Now there’s a solution for you.

    • John_Dore

      Yes, with exploiters turning to illegal immigrants wholesale.

    • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

      You clearly haven’t read the piece properly. I was, and still am, hugely in favour of the minimum wage.

  • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

    Disagree. I think to be fair Rob seems to have massively misintepreted “predistribution”, it goes to the heart of the idea of responsible capitalism which most people across the political spectrum are agreed on. It does accept the need for fiscal restraint, for eg. a living wage would cost less in the long-term. No one is arguing for massive rises in wages, the living wage is not meant to be statutory, but incentivising businesses to adopt it is right. Government spends alot of money on public procurement, so you could procurement to encourage businesses to provide skills training and provide a living wage. I don’t see anything 1970s about that. There is also next to no extra spending involved. In fact it could keep costs down regarding tax credits, which was the big-spending Brown model, which we may not be able to afford in the long run. On rents, some form of action needs to be taken and Kitty Ussher, who I’m sure Rob recognises as a strong fiscal displinarian, has even backed rent controls. Say we were to adopt that policy, it would keep the housing benefit bill down, obviously there has to be safeguards to ensure it works in practice and we don’t have exactly the same type of regulation that existed in the 1980s. Predistribution is not some big spending, high taxing but about how we try and make our economic system better. I thought Rob Marchant would be more supportive.

    • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

      Responsible capitalism is essentially a good idea. However, it calls for intervention of some kind: it is the type of intervention which is important. If it is one which essentially redistributes significant amounts of wealth, by definition it is a large-scale, financially significant intervention. Or rather, a wage control (probably coupled with a price control). However you dress it up, it’s the same.
      Rent controls is an interesting idea, by the way, but not really about redistribution. It’s like the minimum wage, about protecting the vulnerable.

      • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

        I see your point, but the intervention could small but significant reforms to the UK Corporate Governance Code. Some of it does not need to require hefty legislation at all. Rent controls are not a form of redistribution, you are right, it is basically predistribution because you are reforming the market without the need for big spending and high taxes. You should give predistribution a chance.

        • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

          I’m absolutely with you on reforms to corporate governance. I just wish we would call things what they are, rather than trying to “sex them up” as redistributive in motivation (which such things are clearly not).

  • http://twitter.com/shibleylondon Dr Shibley Rahman

    Excellent article by Rob above which I really like, and which I think is really wise and coherently rationally argued.

    One aspect I would like to comment on – though – are concerns about its implementation. I hold the enactment of the National Minimum Wage to be one of the most powerful legacies of a Blair government. One could easily have made an argument that this would be impossible to legislate for. I think, like responsible capitalism, this can be enmeshed into the business models of any businesses including private limited companies. Sure, under the Companies Act the duty is for directors to promote the success of the company (profitability), but through responsible capitalism and pre-distribution (called something different one hopes), businesses can forge out market niches, secure strategic positioning, and can gain competitive advantage.

    A final comment – not related to this article at all. I have noticed Blairites foaming at the mouth at about “pre-distribution”. This is actually no surprise as it questions the primacy of the markets over Society or the State. Furthermore, it puts much more emphasis on value in the economy than mere price, cost or profit. It is little wonder that Prof Heckman won the Nobel prize in economics in 2000 for related work, and Prof Hacker indeed is accreditated with this powerful concept from Yale, which has had significant success in the U.S.

  • EoinClarke

    As the piece above suggests, I am a strong supporter of predistribution. It will now be part of Labour policy whether the author (above) or his associates like it or not.  Ironically, the Purple Book called for & supported Pre-distribution. But hey, I guess it depends on whose mouth it comes out of as to whether or not certain types will give it their backing.

    ps. clue: go peek at one Tristram Hunt’s piece. 

  • PeterBarnard

    Shouldn’t your article carry the title “Eight reasons why Labour should think twice about a full prices and incomes policy?”
     
    As Renie says below, you have massively misinterpreted ”predistribution” ; what’s more, your misinterpretation is on the basis of a twitter that carries no substantiation for the originator’s assertion that predistribution = a ”big step” towards a prices and incomes policy.

    This is Humpty Dumpty land where words mean whatever you choose them to mean.

    As for “we have no money” – well, that’s nonsense. This year, the British people will produce goods and services to the value of about £1,500 billion : an average of (rounded) £50,000 per employed person, £58,000 per household and £24,000 per head of population.

    I would have thought that there is ample scope for some equitable distribution of the £1,500 billion of income that the country enjoys.

    Flesh does need to be put on the bones of the idea of pre-distribution, but the idea fits into the principle of social justice ; if Labour isn’t about social justice, challenging and objecting to the status quo when social justice is not being delivered, then I don’t know what it is about.

    When some people can spend thousands on a “personal number plate”(intrinsic value perhaps £20), and others ten pounds a week on bottled water, while others have to go to food banks, well, I think we need to take a hard look at this so-called “market economy” and the results therefrom.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZPXYLRVP4XOIGGDJWAL6HUO7U4 David

      @PeterBarnard:disqus We have money in this economy: that is indeed beyond doubt, but we also have obligations, which suck up much, perhaps even all, of that £24,000 per head – and without greatly increasing tax (which is not the point of “pre-distribution” as I understand it) more money can only be created by taking away from something or someone else.  That is what the quote is referring to, as I think you know.
      Regarding the number plates: Personally I can’t think of a better mechanism for parting the proverbial “fool” with too much money to spend from it – they are a pure vanity product, which some people want and are welcome to buy from the government, but without which no-one is disadvantaged, pilloried, or made to go hungry.  Up the price I say: let those who feel their lives are incomplete without such pointless opulence pay more into the system and afford better protection for those without: truly it is voluntary distribution at its finest.

    • DavePostles

       Well said, indeed.

    • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

      Peter, re the debate about whether or not this is a full prices and incomes policy, that is a debate at least worth having. On the other hand, if you really feel that there is money to spare in the British economy, you’re living on a quite different planet from the rest of us – and none of the major parties are saying anything of the sort.

      • PeterBarnard

        Rob,
         
        (i) there is nothing in EM’s speech the other day to suggest a return to a “full prices and incomes policy” of the kind that was operating in the 1970s. For one thing, the objectives of the P & I policies in those days was to squeeze inflation out of the economy and had nothing to do with the distribution of income, pre- or otherwise. Governments – including the Conservatives in mid-1972 - set up mechanisms to control prices and incomes across the whole economy.
         
        (ii) your “eight reasons” are reasons why we should not have a “full prices and income policy” and not reasons why we should not have “pre-distribution” (for the simple reason that no specific framework has been spelt out by EM). I suggest that you read carefully the actual details of the P & I policies then : 
         
        - Ted Heath’s total wages and prices freeze beginning in Nov 1972 ;
         
        - then (March – autumn 1973), Stage II – maximum increase of £1 per week plus 4%, with £250 a year as an upper limit
         
        - Labour then went on (1975 – 1978) to impose limits on pay increases.
         
        As I say, these limitations on pay rises were intended to apply to all employees. There is nothing in EM’s speech that leads anyone to believe that he is proposing the sort of measures taken in the 1970s.
         
        (iii) I did not say that there is “money to spare” in the British economy ; all I was saying is that given the GDP per capita/household/employee that we now have, there is ample scope for a more equitable distribution. We had a Gini coefficient of around 0.26 in 1979 and it’s now around 0.40, hence my “ample scope” phrase.
         
        (iv) I would be obliged if you would avoid phrases like ” … you’re living on a quite different planet … .” This kind of use of language adds nothing to any discussion.
         
         

        • robertcp

          Peter, you said everything I wanted to say about the article.  Something else that occurs to me is that Labour should have a policy of trying to increase trade union membership and collective bargaining.

        • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

          Peter, on your”ample scope”, you can only give more money to the worse-off by taking it from somewhere else. What you are really talking about is making the better-off pay more. Whether you choose to do this via pre-distribution or a “progressive” tax hike / welfare transfers, the result is the same (except that in the former case you are distorting the system a whole lot more, with wholly unpredictable results).

          • PeterBarnard

            Exactly, Rob – “taking it from somewhere else/making the better off pay more.”

            The wages of CEOs, directors and so on is a human construct. A company can distribute the wages amongst its employees in any way that it wants. With the ascendancy of managed capital over the last thirty+ years, allied with high unemployment, the pendulum has swung too far and it needs to swing back.

            There is a possibility that it may turn out to be a zero-sum game. There is also the possibility that paying higher wages at the bottom end (i) may enhance productivity at the lower end and (ii) increase the propensity to consume, and consumption leads to employment.

            However, voluntary redistribution (“predistribution”) by companies is a far better option than transfer payments via the tax system.

            But, there are also structural changes that are possible, eg we spend far too much on the finance and insurance sector. This sector generated (gross value added) £109,000 per job in 2010, against £39,000 per job for the rest of the economy. The 2010 level was nearly double (in current £) the level of 2003, whereas the rest of the economy was only 25% higher (Source : Blue Book 2012).

            Classical economics tells us that when such levels of profits are available in a sector, others move into the sector and the exceptional profits then become diluted to a more “reasonable” level.  This hasn’t happened, which leads me to conclude that there is a distinct ”market failure” operating, and this needs addressing.

          • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

            “However, voluntary redistribution (“predistribution”) by companies is a far better option than transfer payments via the tax system.”

            Peter, you’re welcome to have a different opinion, of course, but where is the backup to this assertion?

          • PeterBarnard

            Because if people do things voluntarily, Rob, they are employing free will (and, perhaps, a dose of conscience) and free will, in this context, is better than fiscal coercion applied by government.

            Also, it detracts from human dignity that people in work have to ask the government – fill out all the forms, answer questions from a bureaucrat – for money so that they can afford to pay the rent.

            Adam Smith : “It is but equity, besides, that they who feed, clothe and lodge the whole body of the people, should have such a share of the produce of their own labour as to be themselves tolerably well fed, clothed and lodged.”

            Now, our economy is a bit more complex than it was in Mr Smith’s day, but the moral principle still holds. People in full-time work should not have to have recourse to government so that they are “tolerably well fed, clothed and lodged.”

            Actually, of the whole of The Wealth of Nations, that is the sentence that has lodged most firmly in my mind.

          • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

            All fair and good, Peter, but you only speak of advantages, and none of the  disadvantages. The obvious, huge one being tinkering with markets messes up all your incentives. This is why economists don’t like it – everything becomes so skewed, the market can’t do its job properly and you create more inefficiencies than the “market failures” you supposedly remove.

            Furthermore, it’s one thing to be means-tested, which I agree is not a good outcome. It’s another simply to have to fill in a form. I don’t think there’s anything undignified about the latter (Child Support, for example).

          • PeterBarnard

            Rob,

            Adam Smith is the generally accepted “Father” of free markets and it is difficult to label the thought of his that I quoted as “tinkering with markets.” Indeed, I think he would be horrified by such an interpretation.

            The “tinkering with markets” comes when employers are allowed to pay less than adequate wages and taxpayers have to subsidise those employers paying the low wages.

          • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

            So, put in place a minimum wage, or a living wage, or whatever you want to call it. Problem solved, right? Why do we need “predistribution”?

          • http://twitter.com/waterwards dave stone

            Because after-the-event adjustments don’t do enough to correct the before-the-event interference which distorted the markets.

          • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

            We cannot afford redistribution, the traditionally sense.

          • Brumanuensis

            All theoretically sound, but that assumes that the Arrow-Debreu model is capable of being realised in an actual environment, which I don’t think even Kenneth Arrow believed. So the question of distortions is interesting, but largely academic. And of course, distortions that are beneficial to the general welfare, but which generate non-Pareto efficient outcomes, may still be desirable, even if they are sub-optimal in efficiency terms.

            So-to-speak.

          • Alexwilliamz

            What have you been reading recently??

          • Alexwilliamz

            What have you been reading recently??

          • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

            What you seem to be saying is that tinkering never leads to undesirable outcomes. Which is, theoretically and empirically, incorrect.

            So to speak.

          • Brumanuensis

            No, I was saying that worrying about tinkering is overdone, because market distortions are not an anomalous feature of market economies, but an inherent variable that has to be accommodated. As such, intervention is not guaranteed to generate undesirable outcomes – as you appear to be suggesting – and even economically-inefficient arrangements may be justifiable on social grounds – i.e. we don’t tolerate markets in organs or children, even if they potentially generate more ‘efficient’ distributions of orphans/kidneys,etc.

          • PeterBarnard

            Sorry I’m late in posting an appreciation of your comments on this page, Brumanuensis.

          • DavePostles

             ’This is why economists don’t like it…’
            Fictitious.  There is no homology of economists.

          • Brumanuensis

            Always worth recalling that The Theory of Moral Sentiments pre-dates The Wealth of Nations by some 17 years.

            But then Smith was always a historian first and an economist second.

          • Brumanuensis

            If the market itself delivers the equitable outcome, then the deadweight loss will be less than that incurred through redistribution, which is what I presume Peter is arguing.

  • http://twitter.com/TomMillerUK Tom Miller

    “like the seeming acceptance of not having money to spend. And the
    corollary to that, which is that we could not redistribute wealth which,
    well, we didn’t have.”

    You have heard of tax, right?

    • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

      Hello, the deficit and the double-dip recession. Byrne was right, we have no money left.

      • http://twitter.com/RF_McCarthy Roger McCarthy

         And we had far less money in 1945 (and far more debt and cities in ruins and millions of our most productive citizens in uniform) – and yet we achieved changes so radical that it has taken the Tories and Blairites and Liberal Democrats 60-odd years to fully reverse them and drag us back into the 1930s.

        • John Dub

          Hmmm…. Maybe we didn’t live till 80+, have to fund a modern technology driven health service, pay millions of people to ot out of working, invite millions more to enjoy our services wqithpout having paid in squat…

          Hmm… think thoser factors might affect the afforiability issue?

        • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

          And that was met with measures to reduce the deficit in 1945. Blairites have not been ruining what Labour achieved, if anything they built on it.

          • http://twitter.com/RF_McCarthy Roger McCarthy

            Actually I am all in favour of real socialist austerity – but that means rationing, exchange controls, central planning, conscription and a Sir Stafford Cripps to enforce it all…..

          • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

            What you mean by that is disaster.

          • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

            Hooray, it’s not back to the 1970s, it’s back to 1949. If we didn’t have a floating currency already, we could have arranged a devaluation, too.

          • Brumanuensis

            We have done, via the medium of QE.

          • Brumanuensis

            Sir Stafford approves this message.

        • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

          So Roger, you think we now have living standards comparable to the Great Depression? Care to back that up with any figures?

    • woolfiesmiff

      You have actually heard of EARNING money in the first place, right? You know like before you can levy a tax on it ……

    • http://twitter.com/christof_ff christof_ff

      My understanding of predistribution is that involves LESS tax, as you don’t require anywhere near as much for redistribution?
      Whether my understanding is right or wrong, predistribution definitely needs re-packaging into plain English and fleshing out with some concrete examples of policies.

    • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

      So, help me with this one again, Tom: when there’s no money, how does one proceed to redistribute it, tax system or no tax system?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Gary-Barker/762596773 Gary Barker

     Just another Blairite Tory cuckoo in the nest bashing Ed Miliband for
    even suggesting a slight move back to the real political centre. Labour
    will never win a majority while it insists on occupying the right wing
    ground just to the left of an ultra right wing Tory Party.  Oh and
    Grease was the ‘must see film’ of 1978, in 1979 it was Quadrophenia,
    which was about disaffected youth rebelling against the authoritarian
    right wing  State denying them options. But at least the country had a
    left of centre option in those days, instead of just the pro-big
    business anti-people market slaves they all are now, including the faux
    ‘Labour Party’ we’ve had for the last 17 years that normalised right wing policies and allowed Cameron to easily privatise the NHS and treat the unemployed as slave labour.

  • Daniel Speight

    So far what’s been said doesn’t sound like a prices and incomes policies to me. It seems this is just a Rob Marchant straw man. I suspect he will still be calling for austerity even when Osborne finally admits failure.

    So let’s see if we can take some of the wonk out of predistribution otherwise some other future apparatchik may use it to earn a masters’ degree.

    A future Labour government would like to see wages and salaries take a larger slice of the cake. It would also like the pay differential between the highest paid and the lowest to be reduced. So how would you force a private/public company to help see such a policy achieved without using government money?

    A power that a government has over such company is tax. If corporate taxation levels were set by how well a company confirms with government policy, be it pay differentials, corporate practice, windfall profits or even shareholder to retained money for investment ratios, then such policies could be implemented without calling on the treasury. Badly behaved companies would be paying extra tax to allow those well behaved to have lower taxes.

    • jaime taurosangastre candelas

      Sounds a little like financial blackmail to me. “Conform to a contentious government policy or you will pay a lot of tax”.  Or bribery, if you choose to look at it the other way.  And I can only imagine the administration is going to cost a lot, with all sorts of companies on differing rates of tax.

      I suspect that sort of tax regime would also inspire all sorts of unintended consequences.  For instance, a smaller workforce each of whom is better paid.  What is better for the people of a small town with a mid-size company:  900 workers employed by a company each paid £100 daily, or 1000 workers each paid £90 daily?  The wages bill for the company is about the same once employer’s NICs are paid, the Government receives less revenue in income tax, and less revenue in corporation tax because of the predistribution discount, and 100 people do not have a job any more.

      Alternatively, the company “off-shores” enough labour at reduced costs to lower the UK workforce numbers but pays those remaining extra in order to qualify for the reduced rate of corporation tax.

      Predistribution seems to be designed to reward employing less people in the UK, or if the numbers really do not work out, for taking your company to Belgium or Holland or northern France if that is an option.  And of course, predistribution does not really help those out of work or who cannot work.

      Perhaps the people who “liked” your comment had not done the arithmetic.

      • http://twitter.com/BillQuango Bill Quango MP

         Can only agree. At the last minimal minimum wage increase, which was about 55, BQ industries shed 15% of the workers and moved many more to 3/4 time..

        It was just the last straw. there had been falling sales since 2009. No way can a business INCREASE costs just because it would be nice to pay people more.

        As jaime taurosangastre candelas pointed out, people lost their jobs. The increase to the hourly rate that the remaining got was lost by working less hours. The business had fewer workers working so the remaining had to do more.
        As CEO I’ve had about 25% salary cut since 2009. Its going up by maybe 1% this year. Where is this magic money to pay everyone more? Is Miliband only fixated by banks? They’ve shed 50,000 jobs since 2008. And are only going to axe more.
        retail has shed 35,000 jobs the first 6 months of 2012. These are generally the low paid jobs. Who seriously thinks a wage rise wouldn’t add tens of thousands more?

        There is no possibility of paying A ‘living wage’ which is a fantasy anyway. If it came in tomorrow the exact number of workers would be axed that the increase costs. If the increase meant there weren’t enough people to run the place then business close.  There isn’t an alternative.

        And its all nonsense anyway. Its been done and its been a failure whenever its been tried. My favourite example is Leon Blum’s socialist/Marxist government of interwar France.

        Extra holidays and wage increases were the order of the day.

        The franc was permanently devalued to remain competitive with their industries now higher wages and impost prices rose. All the wage increases were destroyed by inflation within two years. But the crippling effects of too high and unproductive labour remained. France was a deeply divided political and economic basket case.
        Something their next door neighbour took full advantage of.

      • Redshift1

        “And of course, predistribution does not really help those out of work or who cannot work”

        Well no, this is the whole economic thinking behind the policy. Tory approach is reducing demand and causing increasing unemployment, etc because it is taking money out of people’s pockets. Pre-distribution would put more money in people’s pockets, increase demand and therefore get people back into work. It is counter-cyclical.

        • jaime taurosangastre candelas

          It sounds highly inflationary to me, even if by some magic the savings in welfare are balanced to the increased costs.  

          The cost of doing business for both public and private sectors goes up, so prices go up.  In a perfect closed system, the poor have more money so can increase their spending, but it is not a perfect closed system, because some will save or pay off debt, and others will buy a new television from Korea or a car from Japan, so not all of the extra money makes its’ way back into the system.  Meanwhile the costs of just about everything British produced, or even the bus ticket into the local town have gone up.

      • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

        Very good point about offshoring, Jaime, as this is a very significant change since the 1970s. Unless predistribution proponents are planning banning that (which I don’t see as very viable), how would you stop people shipping jobs abroad?

        • Alexwilliamz

          So the only reason people are employing people here is because they are cheaper? Where do we draw the line? The logic of this argument is the race to the bottom. How do we know what the correct level would be for jobs to stay or go? Have you got a formula that allows you to demonstrate that x changes will lead to y jobs going abroad? Not saying it may not have some valid weight behind it but it remains a tricky thing to quantify and you have no idea whether the possible policies involved with predistribution will have this effect.

          • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

            Ok, so, you’re Prime Minister, Alex. Do you ban, or try to stop in some way, offshoring, or do you leave it as is? No avoiding the question: what do you do?

          • Alexwilliamz

            I’m just asking the question about how on earth we go about deciding where the line is between some jobs offshoring and the calamitous all the jobs will disappear event happens. Offshoring has been going on for years, for various reasons many out of our control. Trying to second guess every policy on its ‘offshoring’ potential seems to be leading to paralysis. I’d promote small and medium size businesses possibly through some kind of progressive taxation policy, since my guess is that it would generally be bigger businesses who tend to offshore, economy of scale, moving costs etc. Overall I’d not have any direct intervention on where people employ people, but would instead focus on genuinely improving our workforces’ skills, and improve productivity both of which might actually be more likely with more ‘predistribution’ in our economy. It is a sad fact that if you pay your employees little, you don’t tend to value them and are thus hardly likely to invest in them through things like training. 
             
            The obvious place to hit the actual cost of labour in this country in through housing since our property  prices and rents mean any other kind of attempts to reduce labour costs are stymied, or more likely just pushes any savings into even higher rents. The only way to offset this is housing benefit which costs money and as you have already said there is ‘no money’, of course there is its just how we choose to spend it that maybe is the issue and something Labour need to get to grips with.

      • Alexwilliamz

        Hmmm seems the present government is happy to pursue such policies in the public sector and is not virtually all of this and previous governments environmental policies rooted in this kind of use of tax.

        I am not sure how or in what form the state should work on encouraging fairer income for the lower paid but can we move on for the ‘they’ll or move away’ argument. While I am sure there will always be some companies who are super efficient and prepared to relocate at the drop of a tax percentage but in reality most employers are based in a country because a) that is whether their market is and b) that is where they live. The economy will not evaporate just because of some attempts to equalise how companies employ people, if it is linked to pay differentials the actual wage bill could remain the same, just the overpaid will have to do with a bit less cash!

        I’m not sure what the bit about 900 workers at GBP100 or 1000 at GBP90 is trying to make. In terms of a town that extra 10 pounds might lead to knock on effects that are better for the town and actually lead to the other 100 getting other jobs! I would have thought the gvt would have more income tax because of the thresholds? Of course by shifting the pay level and numbers I’m sure you could come up with one that did work out that way. The bottom line is of course you employ as many people as you need to do a job, you are unlikely to employ an extra 100 workers just because there might be a tax break, it would have to be a hefty one to do that. 

        the bottom line to me is that too often many of these objections exist in the abstract world of the accountant and are far from the thinking of most small and medium sized employers. Much easier to improve the pay of the lower workers and one would hope this would not be something an employers was opposed to if there was a tax incentive to balance it out?

        The international competitiveness is a more problematic issue but if we actually got serious about productivity and developing better middle managers with less hierarchical management structures we might find that many of our problems in this area could be dissolved. Obviously an overhaul of education is still a necessity but sadly this is an area in which a ‘back to the future’ agenda is in full gear. Expect Gove to appear in his Delorean any minute now; now there is an example of a gvt making a mess when trying to get involved in the economy!

    • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

      I have never called for austerity, Daniel, but I suppose you let little things like facts get in your way, eh?

      • Daniel Speight

         Do just support the cuts, but not the austerity then Rob?

        • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

          Perhaps you could tell me when I have said I support Tory cuts? I’d be delighted to see that link.

          • Brumanuensis

            You did argue back in May 2011 that Peter Watt was right when he called for Labour to ‘accept the cuts’.

          • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

            [sigh] My position is, and has always been, that Labour’s “too far too fast” is essentially correct at a macro level, but the politics is all wrong, and realpolitik will mean that we have to accept the cuts in the end. And that is pretty much the position Miliband and Balls have come to (with the exception of health and education).

          • Brumanuensis

            So you accept cuts.

            I don’t buy this itsy-bitsy parsing about ‘realpolitik’. If you think the macro is wrong, then you should stick to arguing on macro grounds. After all, you’ve dismissed a set of potentially popular proposals on pre-distribution on economic grounds.

          • Daniel Speight

             I apologise Rob. By using the word ‘the’ in front of cuts it did make it a reference to Tory cuts which I had no right to suggest you approve of. I should have left it at just ‘cuts’.

            I’m taking it you did support the idea that Ed Miliband and Ed Balls should have specified which cuts they would make on gaining power as so many of your colleagues were arguing.

            Of course I again will apologise if I’m putting policies into your mouth that you don’t support. I took it that this was your position when last year you used the Nye Bevan quote of standing in the middle of road to point out your dislike of the ‘too far, too fast’ line being used. I suppose you could have been arguing for a no cuts party line, but that would surprise me seeing that last year you were rather scornful of the public sector unions position on this.

  • Pingback: Problems of predistribution….. «

  • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

    No offence, Gary but that is total rubbish. Since when was Labour to the left of an ultra right wing Tory Party? We will never win majorities by lurching to the left which presumably is what you want.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Gary-Barker/762596773 Gary Barker

       I always smile when people tell you not to be offended because they actually mean they want to be offensive. But I’m not offended Renie, you can’t help being politically ignorant in believing that following right wing ideology, which actually turns off the majority of voters, is the only option. I just wish people like you would leave the Labour Party alone and join your real party the Conservatives.

  • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

    Well it is actually the Blairites who have been writing about and promoting predistribution, see Tristram Hunt’s chapter in The Purple Book or Kitty Ussher’s essay for Policy Network or even Hazel Blears’ chapter in the Blue Labour book.
    One way to achieve predistribution is through the co-operative and mutual model, which should be at the heart of any future public service reform that Labour embarks on.

    • http://twitter.com/shibleylondon Dr Shibley Rahman

      very helpful comment ; thanks renie

    • http://twitter.com/RF_McCarthy Roger McCarthy

      ‘Well it is actually the Blairites who have been writing about and promoting predistribution’.

      Exactly!

      Which is why those of us on the left should not reflexively jump on this bandwagon without examining very carefully indeed where it’s come from and where it is going.

      • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

        So you are opposed to reforming our capitalist system, ensuring that we have a better economic model and more shared wealth in our economy without needing to borrow more and spend more in order to finance it. Is that what you are saying?

        • http://twitter.com/RF_McCarthy Roger McCarthy

          How could you possibly draw that conclusion from a single sentence?

          As the Trojans learned gift-horses need to be examined very carefully indeed when they are left behind by your enemies.

          But if they’d built a giant celebratory victory bonfire around it and barbecued Odysseus and his commandos the Trojan Horse would have served a very useful purpose indeed.

          Which may sound a stretch but is actually a quite good analogy for how I feel about predistribution.

          I indeed doubt the good faith and even more the common sense (‘working with business to ensure a fairer distribution of rewards’ – and you dare to call us utopian?)  of those who’ve been pushing it so far – but that it doesn’t mean that elements of it can’t be adapted.

          And if the Blairite advocates of predistribution are sincere then it may represent a real positive movement back towards the default social democratic position that workers should be paid more and the greed of capitalists reined back – which is no bad thing.

          • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

            You forget that it was Blair who introduce the windfall tax on utilities, a minimum wage, SureStart and record investment in public services, you know.

          • http://twitter.com/shibleylondon Dr Shibley Rahman

            fair point (I must concede that even as a person who doesn’t agree generally with Blairite non-behavioural approach to macroeconomics)

          • robertcp

            Yes Renie, but most of those policies were in the early years of the Labour government.  Blair said in his autobiography that the government was not fully New Labour until 2005.   That was when I realised that I disagreed with New Labour on just about everything!

      • http://twitter.com/shibleylondon Dr Shibley Rahman

        I was in no way attacking Blarities personally. I just happen to believe at the tail end of my MBA that the socio-economic model of Blairite economics is completely faulty. People who make it into a personal attack should engage with the arguments instead.

    • robertcp

      Renie, we have had 30 years of public sector reform and I am not convinced that much of it has been an improvement.  However, I do agree with you on the co-operative and mutual model.

  • http://twitter.com/RF_McCarthy Roger McCarthy

     ’Hmm. When did we last have a prices and incomes policy? I’ll give you a
    clue: disco was in the charts, Jim Callaghan was Prime Minster, and the
    must-see film of the year was Grease. It was 1979′.

    And who amongst us who can actually remember the 1970s wouldn’t exchange the social and economic system of 1979 for that of today?

    Take pretty any much metric you want and we were a fairer, safer, richer and happier society.

    (Yes I know there was more racism and more sexism – but we also had anti-racists and feminists who did not think that banishing hurtful words from the airwaves and more token minorities and women  in parliament and boardrooms represented equality).

    And most of all we still had hope of dying in a much better world than the one we were born into – the one thing no intelligent person who’s not a mercenary shill for corporations selling us ever shinier gadgets can have now. 

    • Frances_Coppola

      I wouldn’t. I was a teenager in the 1970s and I remember the strikes, the power cuts, the three-day week, very high inflation and high unemployment. Today looks similar except we have deflation instead of inflation, but I certainly wouldn’t say it is worse than the 1970s.

    • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

      I’m certainly with you on the music, it was an era of rare brilliance. That’s about it, though.

      • http://twitter.com/RF_McCarthy Roger McCarthy

        What: no love for Alien or Apocalypse Now or Manhattan or Life of Brian?

        Are these really all eclipsed for you by modern cinematic triumphs like Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen, Twilight or Battleship?

        Barring a few TV imports from America I can’t see how anyone can deny that culturally everything really has gone completely to shit.

  • http://twitter.com/RF_McCarthy Roger McCarthy

    I have my own doubts about pre-distribution – for several of which see Chris Dillow here: http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2012/09/predistribution-good-bad-unoriginal.html

    But it is indeed extraordinary that these Progress-ites and Purple Bookers who were so enthusiastic about predistribution when it was their buzzword condemn it out of hand when it is Ed Miliband who utters it.

    For example here’s a Progress editorial from just 3 months ago:

    ‘More fundamentally, as The Purple Book argued last year, the fact that
    the public finances will remain constrained in the next parliament will
    require Labour to undertake a far-reaching reassessment of its political
    economy. An incoming Labour government will not be able to realise its
    aspirations by using the proceeds of economic growth to redistribute
    wealth through increased benefits and tax credits. Instead, the party
    will have to think much harder about what has been termed
    ‘predistribution’: working with businesses to try and ensure a fairer
    distribution of rewards so that the state does not have to work quite so
    hard to correct the free market’s excesses and inadequacies’.

    http://www.progressonline.org.uk/2012/05/24/an-opportunity-for-labour/

    While I’ve always been fond of Emerson’s dictum that consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds this is just childish…..

    • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant


       it is indeed extraordinary that these Progress-ites and Purple Bookers who were so enthusiastic about predistribution when it was their buzzword condemn it out of hand when it is Ed Miliband who utters it.”

      What a daft comment. This is the first time I have ever written anything about predistribution, or even taken a view on it, as the piece made very clear.

      • http://twitter.com/RF_McCarthy Roger McCarthy

        I am not accusing you of changing your personal views at all.

        In fact I think you are broadly right and your comrades at Progress are wrong for the reasons I’ve explained down here at excessive length.

        It does strike me as a little odd though that being so profoundly opposed to the rest of your faction on predistribution you didn’t find time to express your radical disagreement with them until Ed Miliband took up the idea and are now doing so here rather than at progress or labouruncut.

        After all if you’d only persuaded them all that they were pursuing a reactionary chimaera back in say June when they were still pushing it so strongly maybe Ed might never have picked up on the phrase at all….. 

        • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

          Because I didn’t actually give it any thought until now, Roger. Most of us have other things in our lives apart from politics. Perhaps you should leave your feverish imaginings of my motivations to Assange and his conspiracy theorist chums?

          • AlanGiles

             ”Most of us have other things in our lives apart from politics.”

            True, most of us do, but with all due respect, Mr M. you seem to be constantly dashing on LL to tick off those who dare to disagree with you, so I assume that there is little else in yours.

            Don’t trouble yourself to reply – it’s just an observation

          • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

            You’re right, I won’t trouble myself to reply.

          • AlanGiles

             But you just couldn’t help yourself….sad, Robert, very sad.

  • EoinClarke

    The Labour Right should see pre-distribution as an opportunity. There is nothing incompatible with what “In the Black Labour” argued in their 4 page pamphlet & what is now being proposed by those advocating predistribution.  The original decision to integrate it into mainstream Labour thinking was done so with a view to uniting both main strands of Labour thinking. 

    • Alan_Lockey

      Absolutely right Eoin. Indeed, more fiscal restraint actually necessitates pre-distribution rather than negating it. 

      I just wish people could look beyond who says what and desist this ludicrous left-right slanging match.  If you focus on the idea it’s difficult to see how, assuming one self-identify as Labour and have even a modicum of knowledge concerning the current socio-economic situation, how it can be opposed. 

      I am usually labelled a Blairite (personally, I prefer the more historically rooted term ‘revisionist’) and would defend it as a political approach – although obviously not tout court (emphatically not a Liberal Interventionist). Massively, sincerely, behind this idea…. but then again, I am Tristram Hunt’s researcher so errr I would say that. If you get the chance and haven’t done so, you must read the fuller exposition of Hacker’s ideas in ‘Winner Take All Politics’. 
      As Keynes said, ‘when the facts change so do I’. Blair would, probably does, understand that. Some of his other followers need to realise that these facts might require thinking of a different kind and a move in a political direction of travel they might not be used to…. 

    • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

      I agree with you and most of them have been arguing for it for ages when people like you have been calling for them to be expelled or worse.

    • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

      Well, I’m not entirely convinced that it’s not incompatible, Eoin, as these things evidently cost money. I’d also point you towards the weekend piece by Hopi Sen (one of the ITBL authors), which is rather unsure about predistribution, while being positive about correction of market failures.

  • Brumanuensis

    Others have already made the point about the disconnection between a prices & incomes policy and pre-distribution, but I’ll just add that using an 8-year old Economist article to back up your view about employment regulations is a bit weak, given that the OECD concluded that there was almost no observable correlation between unemployment and employment regulation levels – something Chris Dillow noted when discussing Raab’s ‘Britannia Unleashed’ (http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2012/08/nothing-to-fear.html). 

    • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

      I am hardly alone in thinking European employment practices sclerotic. I don’t really see where the eight years comes into it at all. Has the intervening time changed everyone’s view on 
      European employment practices? I don’t think so. All that has happened is that BRICS economies have become considerably more powerful, and Europe looks more and more isolated.

      • Brumanuensis

        But most of the BRIC economies have higher levels of employment protection than us, as do several countries that finished ahead of us in the recent Economic Competitiveness survey. It’s a fair point to argue that individual labour market policies are unhelpful – Greece’s multiple retirement ages depending on your profession is a case in point – but the broader picture does not support the view that allegedly ‘restrictive’ practices increase unemployment. If anything, some deregulatory measures like exempting small businesses of a certain size from EPL, are likely to cause more harm than good, as John van Reenen at the LSE pointed out in a recent study on France.

        My point about time is that more recent studies contradict the Economist’s view, which was never a settled view anyway.

      • Brumanuensis

        But most of the BRIC economies have higher levels of employment protection than us, as do several countries that finished ahead of us in the recent Economic Competitiveness survey. It’s a fair point to argue that individual labour market policies are unhelpful – Greece’s multiple retirement ages depending on your profession is a case in point – but the broader picture does not support the view that allegedly ‘restrictive’ practices increase unemployment. If anything, some deregulatory measures like exempting small businesses of a certain size from EPL, are likely to cause more harm than good, as John van Reenen at the LSE pointed out in a recent study on France.

        My point about time is that more recent studies contradict the Economist’s view, which was never a settled view anyway.

      • Brumanuensis

        But most of the BRIC economies have higher levels of employment protection than us, as do several countries that finished ahead of us in the recent Economic Competitiveness survey. It’s a fair point to argue that individual labour market policies are unhelpful – Greece’s multiple retirement ages depending on your profession is a case in point – but the broader picture does not support the view that allegedly ‘restrictive’ practices increase unemployment. If anything, some deregulatory measures like exempting small businesses of a certain size from EPL, are likely to cause more harm than good, as John van Reenen at the LSE pointed out in a recent study on France.

        My point about time is that more recent studies contradict the Economist’s view, which was never a settled view anyway.

        • jaime taurosangastre candelas

          But most of the BRIC economies have higher levels of employment protection than us…”

          Brum, I know you are a reasonable person and knowledgeable in many legal matters (I still have not worked out if you are a lawyer or academic, but no matter), so I’m not going to “gainsay you”.  But this seems extraordinary.  Brazil – well they do their own thing, Lula had interesting ideas and genuinely tried a Bolivarian approach, but it is patchy and employment in Brazil is often based on a postcode lottery – if you live in a favela, well good luck in getting good long term work.

          But really, Russia, India and China with more employment rights than in the UK?  It seems counter-intuitive to say so.  We have had in the past people who make a study of such things such as Dave Postles and he is fierce in his criticism of (some) Chinese labour policies and conditions, and while those low conditions may be actively sought after by mostly American companies such as Apple for commercial gain, the Chinese Government allow them to exist, and other sources point to some dreadful Chinese employment practices in the clothing manufacture and industrial chemical businesses..

          • Brumanuensis

            Well the official data is pretty clear – N.B. Chile comes out ahead of the UK:

            http://flipchartfairytales.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/employment-protection.jpg

            Of course, there are sectors of the Chinese economy that don’t abide by regulations of this sort, but there are also a lot of sectors – principally services – where they do and because the Chinese operate on a contract employment system, every employee is supposed to have a written contract which is, according to legal accounts, borderline impossible to terminate normally. Indian employment law is so byzantine that it can take up to 3-4 years to settle disputes. So the idea that the BRICS are light-touch regulatory environments isn’t quite accurate.

          • jaime taurosangastre candelas

            I’m not sure we are taking about the same thing:  I was thinking in broader terms including conditions of employment (e.g. health and safety, machinery regulations, chemical exposure etc), although to be fair I now see your words were only about the laws of contracts.

            The Chilean figures may be better than the UK’s, but it is not entirely as clear as your little picture makes out.  The range of latitude given to employers may be narrower than in the UK, but the burden of evidence, “cooling off period” and notice is very low.  There is also a sanction on “political activity” still on the law books, which was used a lot to get rid of troublesome employees, certainly in the 1980s as the Junta slowly released powers.

            I’m also not sure that the “byzantine” laws in India automatically equate to stronger protections.  They may do, but would appear to be more a case of inefficient and overlapping laws as opposed to a deliberate policy.

            And I am certainly not going to make a point of it, but citing “Flip Chart Fairy Tales” is perhaps not the most inspiring and credible of references….!

          • Brumanuensis

            The chart is from the OECD; I used that link because it was easier and quicker to link to. If you have a problem with the analysis, take it up with the OECD – not a particularly left-wing body by anyone’s standards.

            The point you make about Chile is actually reflected in the chart, where is points out that there are almost no requirements for collective dismissal in Chilean labour law. Your point about complexity not equalling protection is a fair one, but it also indicates that development and deregulation are not uniformly connected. Regarding temporary work culture, the UK is currently going through a period of more self-employment and temporary working, so I’m not sure the distinction can be applied so firmly these days. And in any case, you would expect LDCs to have lower standards for temporary work, because generally casual labour is the last element of the labour market to become regulated.

  • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

    That is funny. My real party is the Labour Party. If you think Labour is ultra rightwing then perhaps your real party is Respect!

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/TVC5VKCQM3SKRFOUJWIEJAFPI4 Stuart

     ”evil empire of unfettered capitalism, the United States, had had one since the 1930s”

    Setting aside the fact you call the USA ‘evil’ do you honestly think the market is unfettered in America? Really?

    Have a look at the levels of the minimum wage in some of the states, it’s so low as to be academic. 

  • PeterBarnard

    Not necessarily, David (“high-tech economy”).

    Imagine 10 people going to an orchard to pick apples and they each pick 100 apples. The owner of the land takes 300 apples as his due because he actually owns the land, the manager/tenant takes 200 apples as his due because he’s done the work of getting the apples ready for picking, and the apple-pickers receive 50 apples each.

    “Just a minute, here,” says the man from the government, “people cant live on 50 apples – they need 60, and so I’m going to tax you two (owner and manager) 20% so that :

    owner receives 240 apples ; manager receives 160 apples ; pickers receive 600 apples.”

    Wouldn’t it be better if the owner and manager “pre-distributed” in the first place so that there’s no need for the man from the government and his tax?

    Some would say that this is against “human nature” (I’m always suspicious when people call on “human nature” as a reason). Well ,maybe it isn’t all that much against “human nature” (unless human nature has changed in the last thirty years) because  a few months ago, there was a letter in one of the papers from a retired director of a merchant bank who said that, years ago, he and his colleagues were happy with a multiple of about 5x average salary of the rest of the people in the bank. Nowadays, the required multiple seems to be about 50x, he wrote, and he was wondering how this had come to pass?

    The most shameful example is in the utilities, especially electricity. The electricity that comes into your house is exactly the same as it was thirty years ago.  The way the stuff is produced is virtually unchanged. Also years ago, the CEGB regional managers were paid at around the same rate as a top-grade civil servant – say, about £150,000 a year. Why do we have £million+ CEOs in the electricity companies these days when the required skills are virtually unchanged?

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZPXYLRVP4XOIGGDJWAL6HUO7U4 David

      I don’t disagree with the thrust of your point there Peter (multiples of salaries scales within companies), but from Chukka’s interview that doesn’t seem to be the formulation that is being enunciated by the PLP on this.

      Perhaps this is the real issue: deliberately or otherwise, the idea of pre-distribution has been put out there as such a vague and woolly concept that it is being traduced by everyone who views it (myself included) to fit into their own personal viewpoint.  Once this is firmed up by the party, and proposed “real world” applications start to come forward (are we talking about adjusting tax rates for companies that submit to reducing salary multiples, for example?) then it will be easier to review this as a concept.

      Sadly I doubt we can continue this debate here: my comments seem to take in some cases more than 24 hours to be posted – I do not blame Mark for this, but simply recognise that, in the context of an active website, it is incompatible with back-and-forth discussion.

      • PeterBarnard

        David,

        Your comment (just above) has appeared within the hour – perhaps Mark has now put you in the “decent feller”/pre-moderation not required category.

        I hope so – you reading this, Mr F?

        I appreciate your “don’t disagree” – that’s what predistribution means to me. It would be much better if companies did it entirely voluntarily – after all, “sharing the apples” is a human construct, nothing more, nothing less.

        The thought that incentives from government have to be offered opens up an entirely new, complex and bureaucratic world. Perhaps, some “naming and shaming” by our free press would not come amiss?

  • Frances_Coppola

    Marchant is correct that this looks like a prices and incomes policy – but it’s the reverse of the 1970s, because we have a deflationary environment, not an inflationary one. 

    The income controls of the 1970s were aimed at curbing excessive pay rises, not supporting incomes for the poorest.  An equivalent policy would be limiting CEO pay and curbing bonuses. But the real issue in our time, as in the 1970s where the incomes of the poorest were eroded by inflation, is the need to ensure that people have enough to live on. Hence the need for a LIVING wage – not just a minimum wage. 

    Similarly, price controls in the 1970s were aimed at preventing companies stoking inflation by raising prices, not curbing company profits.  A modern-day equivalent would be price caps in essential goods and rent controls. But since our problem today is deflation, not inflation, a bigger need is to curb heavy discounting by large retailers, which drives smaller companies out of business and forces down wages. 

    None of these policies is without cost. 

  • http://www.economania.co.uk Bill Kruse

    Just a few decades ago, when the economy needed more cash, the Bank of England printed it, saw it distributed and we all got by quite comfortably without descending into some inflationary armageddon. We do need to outlaw the whole concept of tax havening because otherwise newly created money will simply disappear into them, but otherwise the idea’s still perfectly sound. We know it works, history tells us it did. Why are we bothering with any other discussion? All these acres of pretty speech do nothing except miss the central  problem, when our bank which we own (in theory) did the bulk of necessary money creation we did ok. Since the bulk of it is created by the private banks as debt and they’re not even doing a lot of that lately, we do badly. No matter how we try to address it, we’re screwed unless that problem of who creates our money and on what terms is resolved. Miliband doesn’t come close to addressing it so we can write him off as useless and move on.

  • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

    Well that non-behavioural approach was followed by governments both centre-left and centre-right across the world. With the greatest respect to Eoin Clarke and others like him, they seem to enjoy painting Blairites as Tories and make allegations that Blairites would be doing what the Coalition is doing which certainly is not the case.

    • robertcp

      Renie, I actually believe that the Coalition’s reforms on education, health and welfare are taking New Labour to its logical conclusion.

  • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

    I can see I’ll have to explain my use of irony…I do not think that the USA is evil. Regarding it being unfettered, in most market senses it is relatively unfettered compared with Europe, yes. I’m not quite clear on your  point, though – if the minimum wage is unreasonably low, surely that implies being unfettered, doesn’t it? You’ll have to help me here.

  • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

    Thanks to everyone for the comments, folks. Looking through, I think that many of those who disagree are largely using the argument that this is *not* a prices and incomes policy, and therefore it’s ok. Or rather, that it’s tinkering round the edges, and therefore will not have the large-scale effect that I’m suggesting.

    If the measures are marginal ones simply to redress market failures, than that’s interesting and quite possibly useful (as in the minimum wage). However, this then falls foul of Chris Dillow’s comment in point 3: if it’s a marginal impact, it’s hardly going to change significantly the income split across demographics, and therefore will not be noticeably redistributive (although it might be a very good idea). In short, you can’t have it both ways.

    • http://twitter.com/RF_McCarthy Roger McCarthy

      Hardly obsessive – if you are going to pick one film as defining a year the least you can do is spend 30 seconds checking on wikipedia that it actually did come out that year….

  • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

    Come on, get it right, Gary. My good comrade Dan Hodges is the “Blairite Tory cuckoo in the nest”, I wouldn’t dream of taking that away from him.

  • http://twitter.com/RF_McCarthy Roger McCarthy

    Read Morgan’s or Hennessy’s books on 1945-51 – the problems Attlee inherited were exponentially greater than anything we face today.

    And living to 80+? – how dare they….

  • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

    Thanks Shibs. Agree entirely on the minimum wage, it was a great legacy. 

  • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

    Oh, I see, in eight years all the laws of economics have been stood on their heads, eh? I’m not sure which one of us is being unbelievable.

  • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

    Good point about deflation, Frances. On the Living Wage, I’m not against it at all in principle, but wish everyone would call it what it is, an increase in the minimum wage. Economically it will work out the same.  The issue, as ever, is where we set it so as not to fuel inflation. It’s fine now, as we’re deflationary, but we won’t be for ever, and you can then get in trouble if you set it badly. 

    The key thing, I think, is that any Living Wage needs to be set independently by a panel of economists, balancing out the vested interests in any consultation, i.e. having neither companies or unions with the upper hand in the argument.

    • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

      I disagree. The Living Wage would just be an increase in pay for low paid workers so that it can meet their living standards not necessarily an increase in the minimum wage because the minimum wage is statutory. The vast majority of supporters of the Living Wage make it very clear they do not want it to be statutory but they want employers to go further and pay it. We should financial incentives and public procurement to encourage a Living Wage not legislate for it.

      • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

        It’s an interesting point, Renie, but if you use public procurement as the mechanism, you effectively make Living Wage mandatory for anyone supplying to government (and, presumably, for government employment itself). 

        So firstly, you might as well legislate for it, it’s a mirage that it’s somehow “optional”; and secondly, how are you going to do that without raising the costs of government purchasing (and therefore effectively forcing cuts to services, giving that the total budget will not increase to cover this cost hike)?

        • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

          Well in Scotland they have achieved a living wage by requiring companies in receipt of public procurement pay it, and it has worked. It would be mandatory for those seeking procurement but then there is still the issue of those companies who do not recieve public procurement. Personally, I think the best way would be to give financial incentives by giving tax cuts to companies that pay it but the Living Wage should not be statutory.

          • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

            Well, it looks like my first point is right on Scotland, then – it’s mandatory. And I’m sure it has raised costs of purchasing, but since the Scottish government is subsidised by the rest of the UK, that probably doesn’t bother Alex Salmond. There is also the potential inflationary aspact at a UK level, depending on where you set it.

      • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

        It’s an interesting point, Renie, but if you use public procurement as the mechanism, you effectively make Living Wage mandatory for anyone supplying to government (and, presumably, for government employment itself). 

        So firstly, you might as well legislate for it, it’s a mirage that it’s somehow “optional”; and secondly, how are you going to do that without raising the costs of government purchasing (and therefore effectively forcing cuts to services, giving that the total budget will not increase to cover this cost hike)?

  • http://twitter.com/RF_McCarthy Roger McCarthy

    So as a fellow 70s teenager how did those strikes (actually quite rare from 1974-79 as we had this thing called the social contract so that unions didn’t need to strike), very high inflation (actually quite low by global standards at the time, which had little effect on most of us as wages and benefits kept up and which fell steadily in Labour’s last couple of years), and high unemployment (which even at its worst in the 70s was lower than its been for most of the succeeding decades) affect you personally?

    And to me nothing ‘looks similar’ today – of course some things have changed for the better but the fundamentals of how we distribute wealth and power have become immeasurably worse.

  • http://twitter.com/RF_McCarthy Roger McCarthy

    This article by Philip Brown and Hugh Lauder from Soundings on the great transformation of the global labour market may not be directly inspired by pre-distribution but to me pre-emptively blows it out of the water:

    “First wave globalisation in the 1980s and 1990s involved companies
    creating borderless value chains that were limited to low-skilled,
    low-value work, where virtually all higher value activities stayed close
    to the home base. Some companies experimented with outsourcing areas
    such as applied R&D, design and marketing to China and India, but
    this was both limited and piecemeal. HR strategies (including talent
    management) were tailored to national contexts. Companies were
    constrained in terms of the supply of intermediate and high-skilled
    workers, given their dependence on national education and training
    systems.

    Today’s second wave globalisation is giving transnational corporations
    much greater control over their sourcing options along the length of the
    value chain. These companies are seeking to globally integrate key
    aspects of their human resource functions, especially talent management,
    and to make strategic decisions that challenge most of their
    preconceived ideas about what can be done where, especially in terms of
    high-skilled, high-value work. The home base remains a key location for
    developing and coordinating corporate strategies, but the trend is
    towards greater experimentation with high-end work in low-cost
    locations. This may be thought of as a shift from a Toblerone model of
    organisation – with each national market having its own company
    hierarchy, including training function – to a ‘pick-and-mix’ model,
    where borders and boundaries become increasingly irrelevant within an
    overall global organisation.
    ….

    Moreover, the way in which the global auction plays out in countries
    such as Britain, Germany or the United States will vary according to
    national context, including each country’s different labour market
    conditions, its domestic supply of graduates, and its political climate
    and industrial policies (active or passive). In Britain it is not only
    the financial crisis that has made the trading position of many families
    a lot tougher, but the obsession with free market competition that has
    left British workers seriously exposed to the full force of the global
    auction.

    For the lucky few, often from more privileged backgrounds, the global
    auction will remain in forward gear, as their investments of effort,
    time and money will continue to be handsomely rewarded. But most others,
    including many with a similar educational background, will struggle to
    achieve the trappings of a middle-class lifestyle, while large sections
    of the working class will be increasingly excluded, through inferior
    education and declining occupational mobility.
    ….

    The stark reality is that while the global labour market may contribute
    to the narrowing of some aspects of global inequality, it has
    contributed to widening inequalities within Britain and most other
    western economies.”

    http://www.eurozine.com/articles/2012-09-05-brown-en.html

    Of course predistribution is right in principle and if we can only find a better wrapping for it may well be prove to be a useful propaganda tool but it rests upon old nationalist assumptions that are now hopelessly outmoded and utopian.

    While the workers of the world have never been more divided we are now seeing the birth of a truly global ruling class which as Philip Lasch presciently observed in the Revolt of the Elites and the Betrayal of Democracy have in effect removed themselves from all aspects of the common life – they are no longer schooled with the rest of us, no longer live amongst us, no longer travel with us, no longer pay their taxes like us and have organised themselves into multinational megacorporations which already tower economically over most nations.

    The creation of all those high skilled high wage jobs and the curbing of corporate greed at national level will simply not be allowed by this new class for whom the new preferred political paradigm is rule by authoritarian pseudo-technocrats whether they are appointed by central banks, masquerade as the politburo of a communist party or like Putin present themselves as defenders of the people from the global plutocrats they serve.

    Hollande is already crumpling under the pressure and I can’t imagine that a Miliband government would have any greater reserves of strength and skill.

    So for all the straw man fighting here in a sense Rob may be right in that the world has moved on and its new rulers just won’t put up with this kind of reactionary nonsense.
     
    And no I don’t have any alternative suggestion other than that having offered up such a sane and sensible solution to our woes we have to be absolutely realistic about why it won’t work – as only by acknowledging the forces set against us can we hope to  devise strategies that might perhaps defeat them.
     

    • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

      Roger, although I didn’t agree at all with your point about the 1979  economic system being better than now, this is rather a good point (if a somewhat long and rambling one!)

      Globalisation has changed the labour (and goods and services) markets beyond recognition, which is an argument which explains part of my point 2 – that the world is moving away from such models. In other words, you can’t do these things in isolation any more, without potentially driving away business (you can also do the opposite, of course, tinker to attract business, but that usually has a cost).

  • http://twitter.com/RF_McCarthy Roger McCarthy

    Very perceptive point which does describe very well the Heath years.

    But Labour’s social contract was aimed at supporting incomes for the poorest:

    ‘The Social Contract is no mere paper agreement approved by politicians and trade unions. It is not concerned
    solely or even primarily with wages. It covers the whole range of national policies. It is the agreed basis
    upon which the Labour Party and the trade unions define their common purpose.

    Labour describes – as we did in our February manifesto at the time of the last election and as we do again at
    this one – the firm and detailed commitments which will be fulfilled in the field of social policy, in the fairer
    sharing of the nation’s wealth, in the determination to restore and sustain full employment. The unions in
    response confirm how they will seek to exercise the newly restored right of free collective bargaining.
    Naturally the trade unions see their clearest loyalty to their own members. But the Social Contract is their
    free acknowledgment that they have other loyalties – to the members of other unions too, to pensioners, to
    the lower-paid, to invalids, to the community as a whole.’

    http://www.labour-party.org.uk/manifestos/1974/Oct/1974-oct-labour-manifesto.shtml

    Of course the implementation was far less than perfect but for half of the seventies the last Labour government did wrestle very hard indeed with balancing wages, prices, benefits, profit, employment and investment as part of a national strategy. 

    But as Rob is right in observing we did so in a world which was very different – specifically a world of nation states rather than multinational corporations.

  • Alexwilliamz

    Yep many of these policies can only work if we can sort out wider workforce issues and some growth or at least a restructure of how we generate wealth. There is enough money being generated for everyone in the country to have a pretty good standard of living even without growth maybe a modest attempt to address this should be developed or at least face some constructive criticism. Or are we really saying a successful economy can only exist with big inequalities, strange but I’m sure I’ve seen some research on this some where?

  • Alexwilliamz

    I am no economist and I am not really sure what predistribution will actually turn out to be but some concerns about the general thrust of this article are thus:

    One – is the argument basically don’t make any big changes. If we followed that logic then pretty much all that’s left to government is a bit of tinkering and the same old managerial nonsense we have come to expect. I think we have got some big problems now and in the near to middle future and so we are going to need some big changes. As a result the ‘don’t do it because it’s a big change and we can’t know exactly how it will work out’ is not a valid argument on its own but does merit the ‘we had better make sure we have done our homework’ response.

    Two – Something a bit like this did not work before in different circumstances and no one else is trying this. On its own this is not an argument against, if it was we would still all be living in caves. If it can be established that we were trying to do something exactly the same in the same way in the same conditions fair enough. Of course we would also need to identify why it did not wok, because it might be that there might be lessons on how it could be made to work this time round. After all following this logic we should never have started down the road to austerity as it does not seemed to have fared well down the years but then I guess those were different times!!

    Three – some ‘experts’ don’t like it. Which ones? Is this all economists, economists or a specific school of thought. TBH I’m not sure how much credibility economists have at the moment. Have they provided a good logical argument, maybe with some modelling to demonstrate why ‘it’ (whatever that might be and it only has reference to capping prices, which if we are talking about fuel or energy we do have a virtual monopoly at play in) does not work. 

    Four – um not sure what the point is. If you have a look at the Labour Party’s constitution you will find the answer.

    Five – surely it would be self evident if it was implementable, or did you mean will it work?

    Six – err care to elaborate? What is it historically that suggests this, maybe it was just coincidence? Need a bit more evidence around the old cause and effect. I’m also intrigued as to why you think there will not be a major wage dispute in the next couple of years under our present course. I think there may even be one about to happen around pensions??

    Seven – so we just need to get on in delivering a high skill, high productivity economy. Well if that’s the price of predistribution let’s get on with it!!

    Eight – that is not an argument against this idea, but an argument about promising to do something with this idea. So it does not follow from your original title.

    The big question is are you against this idea because 

    a) you don’t think it will work

    b) you don’t agree with state intervention in this area

    c) you don’t agree with a more materially equal society, but are rather more in favour of some kind of equality of opportunity with a safety net. 

    • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

      1. Well, it depends upon the scale of the change. What I’m saying is to have any notable effect on distribution it would need to be a very big programme. A big programme would need to mess with markets and incentives on a very serious level. Results are highly unpredictable and probably negative. This does not mean we should not do radical things in other areas, that’s a daft (and incorrect) extrapolation.

      2. Find me anyone (with the possible exception of Hollande’s France) who is moving in this direction. Everyone is moving towards less tinkering, not more.

      3. You’ll have to ask Chris Dillow, but it seems a fair summary. The simple reason is most likely because if you tinker to this extent, you distort all their economic models and make it much more difficult to calculate and predict. You also probably create inefficiencies, because incentives get distorted.

      4. Interesting, but wrong. Party constitution talks about putting power, wealth and opportunity in the hands of the many, not the few. I think we’re all for that as a goal. What it does not specify, rightly, is the method. It is about ends, not means.

      It does not mean, for example, that I go and rob the bank accounts (or the stagecoaches) of the better off and give the proceeds to the worse off. It does not specify that I need to tax the better-off punitively. In fact, it may merely mean that we give better opportunities to the worse-off so that they become better-off, thereby reducing numeric inequality. But I am pretty sure it does not mean take money directly from the rich and give it to the poor, full stop.

      5. No, I mean will people just dodge it, like they evade taxes. Chances are they will.

      6. I think this is obvious, but an example is here in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Wilson ”Partly as a result of this reliance, the government tended to find itself repeatedly injected into major industrial disputes”

      7.  Two words for you. Lead. Times. How long do you think they are?

      8. We’re getting into very nit-picking territory, but no. My title is why we should think twice about pre-distribution. A possible cause of what we have just announced is that it’s something we don’t really intend to do, or at least not as it has been fanfared. You will find that Hopi Sen has made much the same point on his blog.

      The answer to the last point is (d) none of the above. I agree with a materially more equal society, but I believe the sustainable way to get there is through equalising opportunity, not wealth transfers.

      • Alexwilliamz

        Thanks for taking the time to reply Rob. You may be right I just feel that few of the points make a direct case against the proposed idea. Obviously you are restricted by space, but too many of them were non sequiturs in that there was a lack of how or why. 

        one – but why is this ‘big idea’ wrong rather than other ones. We have taxes and rules which interfere in all kinds of ways with the ‘market’ plus the existing inequalities within any mature market gauruntee it is neither free nor likely to simply flow in ‘natural ways’. Sure there may be a lot of details and calculations to work out but again just because something is big or difficult does not in itself make it wrong.

        two – less tinkering? You may be right. But that does not in itself make it wrong. Any market trader knows that often the key to making a killing is making the opposite decisions at the right time. Maybe this is one of those times??

        three – I’ll take your word for it, I am unaware of the literature on this, point conceded but it would be interesting to see the objections and whether they could be overcame.

        four – I guess we have different views on how we should get there then? Not suere why this would be a massive departure from things like taxation and the welfare state, I’d suggest the idea is that it is less invasive, part of the point. I simply have no faith that in a skewed economic system you can create real equality of opportunity without some kind of economic equality. The wealthier will always find a way of stacking the opportunities in their favour. However our argument here still feels that it is not one against the idea working, but one against the idea in principle. Something which I feel underpins your critique you have made a decision and seek to build the case against it rather than looking at the evidence and what the idea might be; difficult to do and I may be being uncharitable here.

        five – fair enough, there will always be a element of this but it does not mean it will not work just that you will not get it working completely, but as you say this is true of just about everything.

        six – let’s leave this bit as we could quickly descend into a philosophical discussion about history and what it can actual teach us.

        seven – Six words. Let’s get on with it then. The two can work hand in hand.

        eight – fair enough, too early to tell. 

        Finally at least we agree on where we need to get too!

  • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

    That costs Government money, which is part of the problem.

  • PeterBarnard

    Oops, robertcp, I missed your comment so a belated “thank you.”

    I don’t disagree with your second sentence but over the years, Labour has had difficulties sometimes with the trade unions (“Get your tanks off my lawn, Hughie” as Harold Wilson was supposed to have said to Hugh Scanlon), and the “winter of discontent” was the ultimate difficulty … 

    I don’t recall a time, however, when the Labour leadership appeared so distant from the trade unions. I think that the scars of the “winter of discontent” are still around. However, that does not – to my mind – justify Labour’s wholesale embrace of business in the last fifteen years or so and the lack of challenge to the “conventional wisdom”/neo-liberalism.

    • robertcp

      I agree Peter. 

  • ges_r

    Shouldn’t you have added a ninth danger… that discussion and policy formulation focussed around nebulous buzz-word concepts crowds out discussion of more tangible and relevant issues.  For an illustration of this listen to Chukka Umunna left in an impossible position on the Today programme avoiding the questions: What is predistribution? What does it mean?

    We should have a Labour leadership focussing its energy on real-world problems such as:

    1. Globalisation and the export of a range of manufacturing jobs overseas, and the need to reverse this trend within the constraints of a market economy.
    2. Balance of Payments deficits, historically in the red for decades, now standing at circa £30Bn and approximately 2% or GDP.
    3 The need to seek balance between public and private sectors, and to end the Tory approach of setting private sector workers against public sector workers – we need partnerships and collaboration. 
    4. In balancing the economy, we need to have a viable and sustainable approach that focuses on skills at all levels in the economy, and doesn’t obsess only with the highest level University education, whilst assuming all other roles will be ably filled by drop outs.  Yes we do need to boost skills at all levels of the workforce, but we also need to be realistic and for an efficient economy, we need to accept the inherent variance in the capabilities of our workforce and seek to foster employment opportunities for all in our society.
    5. We need to debate again business-friendly policies and welcome the role of businesses as fulfilling a key societal need for employment oportunities.  What we don’t need is Tory ‘hire and fire’ policies, but instead investment in R&T, access to cost effective finance, prudent investment in infrastructure, skills and training, and collaborative industrial relations.

  • http://www.futureeconomics.org Diarmid Weir

    This all shows a terrible lack of imagination. Recycling 8 year old propaganda from ‘The Economist’ of all places?

    If we aren’t prepared to challenge the status quo, what is the point of having a party that is not the coalition by another name?

    • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

      So, economics has changed so much in eight years? No-one is defending the status quo, either. 

      What poverty of arguments.

      • DavePostles

         ’So, economics has changed so much in eight years?’
        Whose economics?  For myself, I prefer the ‘new’ consensus of Stiglitz, Krugman, James [Jamie] Galbraith,  Larry Summers.

  • Alexwilliamz

    One kind of vampiric form of New Labour. I still think that in its original synthesis there were solutions, but as with any ‘system thought’ or presentation there were elements which many of us thought were only there temporarily while we made a transition. Instead they seemed to have taken it over and provided a direction for this gvt to grow into some kind of horrific beast. Kind of Frankenstein’s monster analogy maybe? I think that is why many of us feel so angry about New Labour, not because of what it was but because of what it failed to be.

    • robertcp

      Yes Alex, it is interesting why we feel so angry about New Labour.  It goes beyond the perhaps inevitable disappointment that us lefties will feel about any left of centre government that does not bring in a workers’ paradise.

  • DavePostles

    Wolfgang Streeck. ‘Citizens as consumers.  Considerations on the new politics of consumption’, New Left Review 76 (2012), pp. 27-47 – well worth reading, IMHO.

  • Brumanuensis

    Are you suggesting it would have been better that the French remained on the Gold Standard? You’ve got to be kidding.

    As for your assertions about the minimum wage, a). neither the IFS nor NIESR (nor indeed the Low Pay Commission) have found the effects of the minimum wage to be as negative (or at all negative in many cases), and b). the value of the minimum wage has fallen in real terms since 2009, having stagnated for the previous 3 years.

  • Brumanuensis

    It may raise procurement costs, but if it also realises savings elsewhere in the welfare system, through lower benefit payments then the net effect may not be substantial. More to the point, isn’t this precisely the sort of arrangement we want? And the other half of your objection only works if we assume a zero-sum budgeting arrangement.

  • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

    He didn’t say that, and I have read that book several times. So you disagree with the investment in schools and hospitals, a minimum wage, SureStart, creation of tax credits, more police on the beat, fall in crime, dropping debt for Third World countries, action on child poverty, devolution, windfall tax on ulitilities, improvement in schools standards etc? At least we know where you stand, and it is not on the Left if that is the case.

  • http://twitter.com/redrenie24 Renie Anjeh

    He didn’t say that, and I have read that book several times. So you disagree with the investment in schools and hospitals, a minimum wage, SureStart, creation of tax credits, more police on the beat, fall in crime, dropping debt for Third World countries, action on child poverty, devolution, windfall tax on ulitilities, improvement in schools standards etc? At least we know where you stand, and it is not on the Left if that is the case.

    • robertcp

      Thanks for the reply.  He listed New Labour policies and I can remember disagreeing with most, if not all, of them.  As it happens, I agree with most of the policies you have listed.

    • robertcp

      Renie, I borrowed the Blair’s book (hardback 2010) from the library to check what he said.  Direct quotes are below.

      On 1998-99:

      “I wondered…. whether we had been right to dismantle wholesale GP commissioning in the NHS and grant-maintained schools in education.” (page 211).

      “I…. had…. a growing hunch that our approach was not right.  Not that it was wrong or having no effect – it was – but that it was incomplete at best, short of a dimension that was not peripheral but core.” (page 215)

      On 2003-2005:

      “…. there were critical battles over foundation hospitals and NHS reform; tuition fees; …. city academies…; ID cards; and anti-social behaviour.” (page 480)

      “The platform [in the 2005 General Election] was indisputably New Labour and there were detailed policies in all main areas of policy.” (pages 511-512).  He then gave a similar list to the earlier quote, which was very different to your list above. 

      The important point in all of this is that bringing the private sector and competition into the public services began under Thatcher and Major, continued under New Labour and will be completed under the Coalition.  Labour needs to consider whether it wishes to change what it inherits from the Coalition.

  • rekrab

    Oh Dear Mr Quango, 3/4 time? had you been aware that normal working time is a spread of 1/5 or 5/5 Th’s as a whole, projected working week, however stores such as BQ are busier over the weekend creating a 3/5ths potential working pattern over the friday, saturday and sunday now that’s a concept adopted in many working  places, where the time and a half or the double time is replaced by an additional shift of 3/5Th’s topped up by premium hours for unsocial worming hours, probably more suited to the family man/woman.Just taking the overtime on a spread against a better pay and additional working hours accumulated by additional workers would indeed be a more equitable means.  

  • rekrab

    Oh Dear Mr Quango, 3/4 time? had you been aware that normal working time is a spread of 1/5 or 5/5 Th’s as a whole, projected working week, however stores such as BQ are busier over the weekend creating a 3/5ths potential working pattern over the friday, saturday and sunday now that’s a concept adopted in many working  places, where the time and a half or the double time is replaced by an additional shift of 3/5Th’s topped up by premium hours for unsocial worming hours, probably more suited to the family man/woman.Just taking the overtime on a spread against a better pay and additional working hours accumulated by additional workers would indeed be a more equitable means.  

  • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

    A sensible point. I’m particularly keen on point 5: we are currently not successfully convincing business that we are not against it.

  • PeterBarnard

    Rob,

    “Tinkering with markets” (I’ve come to the top of the page because the boxes are becoming smaller) :

    The national minimum wage is, itself, “tinkering with markets” ; what’s more, between its introduction in 1999 and 2010, the NMW increased by 65%, while GDP nominal increased by 58%, and GDP/capita by a nominal 48%. The annual increases in the NMW were “inflationary” because the increase in the NMW was less than the increase in output.

    Every time that government resets the NMW, it is “tinkering with markets.”

    If we accept the principle of a NMW, there is no reason why we can’t accept the principle (and enactment) of a “living wage” (£8.20 per hour in London, and £7.20 per hour outside London is the 2012 target, I believe). Barclays and KPMG, in London, have accepted the living wage and, as far as I can see, they are pleased that they have done so. And, that well-known representative of “workers of the world, unite”, Boris Johnson, is in favour of the living wage concept.

    As I say, it is best that companies accept an equitable distribution of income voluntarily (best) ; legislation is next best. What is actually worst is redistribution by taxation.

    I always find it strange that a wage increase for the bloke who sweeps the floor is automatically designated “inflationary,” while a (say) 50% increase in pay for the CEO (even as company output has only increased by 5%) attracts no comment regarding the “inflationary effect.”
    ===============================================================

    “Tinkering with markets” is not confined to pure finance and money. Possibly, the largest “tinkering” in markets is caused by the Town and Country Planning Act in which development – of any sort – is heavily restricted by force of law. An owner of land just cannot erect a dwelling on that land without approval from government, ie the owner’s free will – and that of a willing purchaser – takes second place to what we deem “socially desirable.”

    The result is the price of residential property being higher than it would be in an “untinkered market.”

    Legislation against pollution is also “tinkering with markets.” What’s more, it adds “costs” because companies have to install effluent treatment equipment (these costs are either then included in the price of the product or absorbed by the shareholders in the form of reduced dividends, or a combination of both). Whatever – costs result but we deem “socially desirable” the increase in water quality in our water courses (salmon swimming up the Thames and so on).

    The current hoo-ha over the third runway at LHR is a classic “tinkering with markets.” Left to themselves, BAA, the airlines and companies would be building a third runway next week. However, many economic functions have externalities – in this case, the noise of aircraft over West London – and so a desirable “social effect” interferes with the free will of economic agents to do what they woukld like to do.
    ================================================================

    But, of course, the unspoken in all of this is that shareholders and top management must “receive their due,” without questioning whether they are actually deserving of that due in the first place, and without questioning whether a little bit of equitable “predistribution” might not, actually, be socially advantageous.

    • Brumanuensis

      Exactly Peter. I’d add to the list of restrictions, any form of regulation of migration. After all, restrictions on freedom of movement are another form of ‘tinkering’ that creates distortions – under-supply of labour, ‘excessive’ labour costs, etc.

      • PeterBarnard

        Now there’s a hot potato, Brumanuensis – free movement of labour …

    • http://twitter.com/rob_marchant Rob Marchant

      Peter, if you read the piece, you can see that I am heavily in favour of the minimum wage, despite the fact that you are, as you say, “tinkering”. The reason? It’s simple and very thoroughly researched. The Living Wage, whatever we call it, is merely a minimum wage, increased. Which is fine, as long as we’re confident that there are no unpleasant side-effects (inflation and/or unemployment). But a panel of economists could probably do that without much hassle.

      So, we’re in agreement on that. But this piece (and Ed’s piece/speech) is not about the minimum wage.

      Second, tinkering is fine as long as we can control the results. Of course we should have pollution legislation – it’s a clear market failure.

      Third runway a bit more complicated, I’d say. Concerns are mostly legitimate and reasonable, but NIMBY effects make for moral hazard.

      All of these things you quote are pretty much legitimate correction of specific, isolated market failures. Exactly what “predistribution” is NOT about, from what I can see - it’s a general principle about prices and markets.

      • PeterBarnard

        Thanks, Rob.
         
        I think (repeating what I wrote in my first comment on your article) more flesh needs to be put on the bones of EM’s “predistribution” before anyone is able to draw a definite conclusion.

        There was also quite a bit of “mom an’ apple pie” in his speech, eg “We need a welfare state that encourages people to work ….” ; well, politicians have been saying that for two or three decades now. What we actually want is an economy that generates high employment and that seems to be beyond us …

        He also stated, “Firms who want to invest in their workforce, and who know that companies flourish best when rewards are fairly shared.”

        Also to repeat, I certainly did not read (either into or actually in) the speech a proposal to return to  a full 1970s style prices and income policy, nor does he say anywhere that he intends to interfere with prices. “Tinkering with markets” is as long as a piece of string, if I may say so, and it depends on the strength of the pro-marketeer’s view (full-on laisser faire, or our post-war “mixed economy, or perhaps, the Nordic model).

        But anyway – thanks again.

  • Serbitar

    If “predistribution” and “living wages” are supposedly voluntary advances, why would any employer choose to implement them? More to the point why have so few employers implemented any polices along these lines already if the choice to do so lies in their hands?

  • PeterBarnard

    Unfortunately, Serbitar, too many employers in the UK  have a low-wage mentality. Up to a certain point in the human resources chain, employees are regarded as “costs” that have to be kept down. Above a certain point, employees magically become “wealth creators,” when the simple truth is that all employees are able to make a contribution to “wealth.”

    The current levels of unemployment do not help ; too many employees, regrettably, are “thankful that they have a job,” and employers milk this inequality of bargaining power for every penny that they can. Witness the latest manifestation of the failure of neo-liberal economics : “zero hours contracts.”

    • Serbitar

      Precisely my thoughts.

      Unless you legislate to compel employers to treat their employees humanely and decently the overwhelming majority of employers won’t do so. It is worrying to see men and women reduced to the state of biological machines fit to be exploited by business and/or the state. I think David Freud, the “mastermind” behind much of the abortive Coalition welfare reforms, refers to benefit claimants as “stock” whether in the bovine sense (“a herd of stock”) or as (human) merchandise waiting to be sold is anybody’s guess.

      But then Liam Byrne is no better.

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